Trade - Escobar and Reyes for Alex Gonzalez

[RiknTN]

Just reported Escobar and Jo Jo Reyes to Toronto for Alex Gonzalez and 2 minor leaguers......

[Devil Wears Prado]

The Braves also receive LHP Tim Collins (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=collin004tim) and RHB Tyler Pastornicky (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=pastor001tyl).

Maybe this is the 'boost' that many people were looking at. Alex Gonzalez is getting on-base at a .296 clip compared to Yunel's .334. But he's slugging .497 with 17 homeruns, 25 doubles, and 1 triple compared to Yunel's .284 slugging with 0 homeruns and 12 doubles. I guess Wren really wanted that right-handed bat.

Gonzalez is signed to a $2.75M contract this year with a 2011 club option of $2.5M.

[Agent-X-]

The Braves also receive LHP Tim Collins (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=collin004tim) and RHB Tyler Pastornicky (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=pastor001tyl).

Maybe this is the 'boost' that many people were looking at. Alex Gonzalez is getting on-base at a .296 clip compared to Yunel's .334. But he's slugging .497 with 17 homeruns, 25 doubles, and 1 triple compared to Yunel's .284 slugging with 0 homeruns and 12 doubles. I guess Wren really wanted that right-handed bat.

Gonzalez is signed to a $2.75M contract this year with a 2011 club option of $2.5M.

Very interesting. Hmm.

I guess the organization just really wanted to trade away Escobar. I need to know more about Tim Collins and Tyler Pastornicky to decide if this deal really works out well for us. I had little confidence in Reyes, so I kind of feel like we made out well in trading Yunel and Reyes.

[Agent-X-]

Yeah, I generally feel that we may have won in this trade. I liked Escobar, but A Gon's power kind of makes up for the difference between the two. Tim Collins looks frickin' sweet. Hoping he ultimately pans out better than Reyes. His WHIP and K/9 are very promising at AA.

[Hobbes]

I'm not sure this trade is an improvement, but I think Yunel had worn out his welcome with Bobby and the team.

[wordslayer©]

I did some searching and couldn't find any of his good stats. If someone could post those, I'd appreciate it.

[Agent-X-]

I did some searching and couldn't find any of his good stats. If someone could post those, I'd appreciate it.

Basically, Gonzalez puts up some good power numbers every couple of years. He's been up and down a lot. In a good year, expect a near .800 OPS with 20+ homers. Pretty average on defense, too.

I think Tim Collins is the steal here. In 4 seasons of minor league ball his WHIP is 1.094 with 13.6 K/9. He doesn't surrender a lot of hits. At AA this year, his K/BB is 4.56. Collins really seems to be coming along as a potential closer.

I basically feel Escobar for Gonzalez is a wash. Tim Collins really helps this deal. As for Tyler Pastornicky, I don't know enough about him yet.

[Bad Blood]

What the hell? I don't like it. Yunel's numbers were bound to improve in the second half, while Gonzalez has been playing over his head all year.

[quick]

Someone needs to check me on this, but even thought the Braves have a club option for 2011, isn't the option voidable by Gonzalez if he waives his buyout? If so, we may get a 3 month rental for Esky and Jo Jo. I hope the two minor leaguers we got are good players.

[Gman]

I'm not sure this trade is an improvement, but I think Yunel had worn out his welcome with Bobby and the team.

I think your right hobbes although I think they did okay in the deal. Gonzalez consistent excellence with the glove is an upgrade. Escobar has all the physical tools but his constant mental lapses have proven costly. Gonzalez will make a decent 8 hole hitter much like Vinny Castilla was that one year. Plus he's cheap for next year. It will be Gonzalez glove work that will be most welcomed. The Redsox have stated both times they got him that his glove was instrumental in their winning. As a hitter Gonzalez is a much more powerful version of Escobar-in-a-deep-slump. He's also a righty who hasn't hit lefties well in the last few years, so he's probably not going to improve the lineups performance against left-hand pitching.

If neither prospect turns out then I think the Braves sold low on Escobar. I think they had just reached a point where they wanted him out, especially after his string of lapses in the series with the Mets. Can't say as I blame them.

[Agent-X-]

What the hell? I don't like it. Yunel's numbers were bound to improve in the second half, while Gonzalez has been playing over his head all year.

Sorry but I disagree here. Alex Gonzalez really isn't an all-star by any stretch, but he most certainly isn't playing over his head at all. He's done this with some regularity over his career. He's basically had four seasons where his OPS was approaching .800.

For better or worse, he really does remind me of Jose Hernandez. He won't walk much, K's quite a lot actually, but when he hits the ball it flies.

I consider him to be a bit of a mystery with regard to the poor seasons he has put up in between some solid ones. I don't know if they are injury-related.

Again, we got a really sweet minor league closer in the deal in Tim Collins. He's maybe one season away from the big club.

Basically, I think the Braves will get long well without Escobar. Gonzalez is performing right now with a club option for next year. He really is more of an immediate addition for this club without any obligation beyond the next few months. Tim Collins is what I call turning nothing into something with regard to Jo Jo Reyes in this deal. I would have gone emo if we dealt Yunel straight up for Gonzalez, but we didn't. We actually didn't do bad by this deal.

[RiknTN]

I like this trade. Time for Escobar to move on IMO (and I don't think his Braves team mates will feel any love lost). Gonzalez is a good pickup.

But who is in our system, if anyone, to play SS in a year or two?

[Dreamscape]

There is one plus in the deal.

Braves don't have to go to arbitration with Yunel Escobar. Other than that, I don't like this deal. It's not that I don't understand that the Braves lost faith in Escobar's attitude and work ethic, but this was selling low on a talent that BABIP suggests will have a bit of a bounceback season. You lose on offense if Escobar does bounce back and Alex Gonzalez, while not a bad shortstop, is not the defensive shortstop Esco is and with Chipper having zero range at third, losing that extra step can turn those Hudson groundball outs to the left side into singles.

Tim Collins has nice numbers. He's also 5'7" with a funky delivery and while some short guys with odd deliveries are able to parlay that into nice careers, most either get hit hard or get injuried too often to be successful or both. Tyler Pastornicky gives the Braves a up-the-middle prospect, but nothing special at that. Will be nice to see him in Myrtle Beach if that is where he is assigned.

Just...don't see this deal ending well. But then, the Nomar Garciappara deal looked awful for the BoSox and turned into a season-turning deal. But I simply do not like this deal. Not one bit. I would have preferred putting Esco in the 8 hole, taking advantage of his defense, and hoping for a second half boom to deal him in the offseason.

[Andy G.]

I would have preferred putting Esco in the 8 hole, taking advantage of his defense, and hoping for a second half boom to deal him in the offseason.
So would the Braves, but Escobar's personality is the reason he was gone. I'd bet everything I have that Wren knows he sold low on Escobar, and that this trade is not such a great one if you're purely looking at the value of each player involved. They decided it was worth it to get the only bad personality we have out of the locker room. I don't know how someone can really disagree with that decision. Gonzalez being here, and Escobar not being here, is going to be great for team chemistry, and this team already has stellar chemistry.

[Agent-X-]

At a high, productive level? Off the top of my head, I'd say none...with an outside shot at someone like Mycal Jones or someone of that nature stepping in with decent defense.


Don't have too much time to look into this, but I do recall saying Alex Gonzalez would be a decent stop gap shortstop in the event that we did trade Yunel Escobar. However, that was also with the concession that the only way I'd trade 3 more years of Escobar was to get 3 or more years of another hitter...like a young outfielder.

This deal reeks of "Get rid of an attitude" to me. I knew he was diva-ish and needed a snickers...but I really didn't get the feeling he was that much of a cancer.

Braves likely saw an opportunity to improve the offense instantly (15+ homeruns compared to 0) and not give up TOO much on defense for this season and perhaps next as Gonzalez does have an option and add some more relief pitching depth to the middle of the minor league system.

I'm not excited, but I can sorta see what this deal was made on the face value of it. I'm only hoping that the added prospect depth will lead to a trade in which we acquire an outfielder in a week or so.

This has all the markings of a preliminary step towards another deal, I agree.

Although I'm not expecting anything huge.

[absintheofmalaise]

Welcome Seabass. He will provide league average defense and offense with some pop. His power numbers are misleading. There is no way he keeps up the pace he's been on in Toronto. He'll bring a good veteran presence that Cox likes to the team. No flash. Just decent, steady play. On defense, he should be hurt a little by no longer playing on turf.

[quick]

Welcome Seabass. He will provide league average defense and offense with some pop. His power numbers are misleading. There is no way he keeps up the pace he's been on in Toronto. He'll bring a good veteran presence that Cox likes to the team. No flash. Just decent, steady play. On defense, he should be hurt a little by no longer playing on turf.

Hmmm. Turf may give truer bounces, but it is much faster. If Gonzalez lacks a little of Esky's range, then the slower grass surface may actually help Gonzalez on defense.

[Gman]

So would the Braves, but Escobar's personality is the reason he was gone. I'd bet everything I have that Wren knows he sold low on Escobar, and that this trade is not such a great one if you're purely looking at the value of each player involved. They decided it was worth it to get the only bad personality we have out of the locker room. I don't know how someone can really disagree with that decision. Gonzalez being here, and Escobar not being here, is going to be great for team chemistry, and this team already has stellar chemistry.

I think it went one step further then his impact on chemistry. I think they decided they could not win this year with Escobar at SS. His frustrations at the plate were beginning to show up on defense with increased frequency. Given the critical nature of his position, Escobar was a definite risk to the Braves ability to perform at their highest level this year. The Jays can afford to let him come around but the Braves didn't have that luxury and they had clearly run out of patience with him. When you have three high pitch-to-contact guys in the rotation like Hudson, Lowe and JJ you can't afford a sulking SS making bonehead plays.

[Chris_Moderato]

I think we are all missing the most important and most obvious point of this trade...

No more Jo Jo Reyes.

[Lauren T.]

I think we are all missing the most important and most obvious point of this trade...

No more Jo Jo Reyes.
http://media.bigoo.ws/content/15/288515/Gold-Star-Glitter.gif

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I think this deal centered on Yo-Yo Reyes. Wren finally found a taker and had to toss in Escy to get it done! Seriously, as much as I like Escy and his future it was time to cut him loose. His offensive woes were showing up in his defensive lapses. His shoddy performance against the Mets made a move obvious. Atlanta gets a proven SS with pop and a couple of kids to work with. Escy gets a fresh start with a clean slate and Yo-Yo goes further into obscurity. I like this move.

[AhbBrave]

Just reported Escobar and Jo Jo Reyes to Toronto for Alex Gonzalez and 2 minor leaguers......


Guys i actually like this trade. Yes Agon is playing over his standards and is in decline, but he has good defense and a little pop, which is better than the nothing we were getting out of Escobar. We dont have escobar's cancerous attitude in the clubhouse either, and escobar will probably make about Agons salary in Arbitration next year. Tim collins is a very good pitcher overlooked because he is 5'7. He has a ++ Curveball and just added a cutter, and the 23 year old has a career 2.4 era and 15k/9 in the minors. Also they say he has great pitching logic and baseball iq, and his delivery is actually similar to Lincecom's, take from that what you will. The 20 year old ss we got already walks 10% of the time, which is nice since he has a good glove, solid speed, and hits for average. I dont think any braves fan will lament getting rid of Jo Jo Reyes either, we all know he was a AAAA player. Either way i think this is a good move where Agon can be a stop gap for salcedo or any of the surprisingly ss rich farmhands. This is a good job thinking of the future and at the same time making improvements for now.

[BigWorm]

I'm really disappointed in Yunie. I had great expectations for him this year and in the future. His attitude and lackluster effort really irked me. The worst thing about Yunel was when he would complain and pout about the official scorer WHILE ON THE FIELD. That's ridiculous and shows no class. I could see a high school kid showing that much disappointment in a scoring but not a player that had already made it to the big show. The official scorer is just doing his job, Yunie showed zero class and it was time for him to go. We will be fine without him. For every great play he made, he botched the easy ones. Just has a lack of concentration and sometimes looked lost.

[bmcvay10]

Here I am. I've been keeping up with the board, but I haven't had much to add to the convos lately...Probably because we've been pretty decent thus far.

I think we are going to deal for either Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier...

Before you laugh off that second name, consider how badly the Dodgers need starting pitching--Not only now, but for the future as well.

With Lowe pitching more like his past self lately, It's at least feasible to suggest they might have some interest in bringing him back. I'm certainly not counting on that though...

I think Medlen has to be on the Dodgers' wish list. Especially after personally being carved up by him not too long ago.

Either way, Kemp or Ethier, we have the minor league arms to compensate for one of these players. The question is simply whether or not Wren is willing to deal more than one of our top tier young starters.

Assuming FW would be willing to do so for Ethier, we could send Minor, Delgado, Medlen, Dunn, McClouth and or Melky/Diaz to LA in return.

It's a long shot but considering the fact that we just picked up ANOTHER solid young arm in the A-Gon/Yunel deal...I'm convinced FW is prepping for not just another move.......a BIG one. One that makes sense now AND for the future.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I can't allow myself to be hopeful regarding Corey Hart or Jose Bautista.

[Dreamscape]

So would the Braves, but Escobar's personality is the reason he was gone. I'd bet everything I have that Wren knows he sold low on Escobar, and that this trade is not such a great one if you're purely looking at the value of each player involved. They decided it was worth it to get the only bad personality we have out of the locker room. I don't know how someone can really disagree with that decision. Gonzalez being here, and Escobar not being here, is going to be great for team chemistry, and this team already has stellar chemistry.
Here's the thing on chemistry. Didn't the Braves have great chemistry during the 90's? Did it help them win more than one World Title?

I saw on fangraphs someone make the argument that had Omar Minaya made this deal, he would have been been destroyed. But because Frank Wren did it and Wren typically does not make bad decisions, he is given some support. And that does make sense in that he has earned that benefit of the doubt. But regardless, if I hear anymore about team chemistry, I will scream. Chemistry is valuable, but you don't need 25 guys getting along to win a championship. As bad as Esco has played (and he's been great defensively so let's overblow his few mistakes) and as lost as he has looked with the bat, the chances are better that he will bounce back in the second half than Alex Gonzalez continuing to produce.

I just hate this deal.

[HomerTheBrave]

Maybe I'm crazy


:rolleyes:



Matty is gonna go on a tear and make all of you forget the though of the need for a righty batter...
I hope....

not crazy about this trade...I ,as prob most of you,would've wished he had grown up and be the player he's capable of being..but Yunel simply had it coming...

[Agent-X-]

Here's the thing on chemistry. Didn't the Braves have great chemistry during the 90's? Did it help them win more than one World Title?

I saw on fangraphs someone make the argument that had Omar Minaya made this deal, he would have been been destroyed. But because Frank Wren did it and Wren typically does not make bad decisions, he is given some support. And that does make sense in that he has earned that benefit of the doubt. But regardless, if I hear anymore about team chemistry, I will scream. Chemistry is valuable, but you don't need 25 guys getting along to win a championship. As bad as Esco has played (and he's been great defensively so let's overblow his few mistakes) and as lost as he has looked with the bat, the chances are better that he will bounce back in the second half than Alex Gonzalez continuing to produce.

I just hate this deal.

I don't see what the hate is about. Clearly, when Alex Gonzalez is having a solid season, he has a solid season. His OPS is right where it usually is [when he's having a solid season]. Sure, it could crash. Is it likely to? I don't think so. He's having a pretty good year.

The odds of Yunel suddenly turning in a good season? I don't know. We have a small sample size to look at with Yunel. He has been a special kind of suck this year. It'd be hard not to call this a win.

[RiknTN]

:rolleyes:



Matty is gonna go on a tear and make all of you forget the though of the need for a righty batter...
I hope....

not crazy about this trade...I ,as prob most of you,would've wished he had grown up and be the player he's capable of being..but Yunel simply had it coming...

Maybe....some clubhouses need that chemistry and some don't.....doubt it's a black and white solution. The Braves seem to need it. Obviously they are having a very good season and one thing almost every player on the team comments on is how good the chemistry is and how everyone plays selflessly (except seemingly...Escobar) Apparently the suits felt the same way. This trade was as much about getting Escobar gone as it was adding a little hitting for the 2nd half. This was not about the future of the SS position in ATL. Not long-term anyway.

[sdp]

I like the trade. Thank God I'll never have to see Jo-Jo Reyes on the mound again.

[Gman]

Seems like the naysayers on this deal are completely dismissing Tim Collins because of his size. Yes, a 5'7" pitcher dominating major league hitters is a complete rarity. But so is a 20 yr old, 5'7" pitcher who dominates AA hitters the way he's been doing. He's been dominating at each level and hasn't experienced even the slightest drop off in performance despite a pretty aggressive promotion plan given his age.

I wouldn't dismiss this guy as being a nothing chip in this deal just because he is short. One of the biggest reasons it's so rare to find guys Collins size pitching in the majors is they never even get a shot. Collins himself wasn't drafted. The biggest initial hurdle for all the shorter stature guys is to be given the initial chance and then quickly impress the doubters with their performance. Once their over that hump, it then comes down to their results against the next guy (height be damned). Collins cleared the biggest hurdle when he was given his first shot by Toronto and dominated. Nobody signs a 5'7" pitcher so he must have blown them away in a tryout. At this point his height really doesn't matter anymore because he's proven it doesn't matter. It's not like AAA and major league hitters have some special "hit the short guy" skills that the AA ballers and below lack. It's now only about numbers and results for Collins and you have to like what he's got there.

[Devil Wears Prado]

So would the Braves, but Escobar's personality is the reason he was gone. I'd bet everything I have that Wren knows he sold low on Escobar, and that this trade is not such a great one if you're purely looking at the value of each player involved. They decided it was worth it to get the only bad personality we have out of the locker room. I don't know how someone can really disagree with that decision. Gonzalez being here, and Escobar not being here, is going to be great for team chemistry, and this team already has stellar chemistry.

It's not that he's short ... it's that short pitchers especially 5'7" ones, don't last so long in the majors.

[-Dr. Brave-]

I like the trade. Thank God I'll never have to see Jo-Jo Reyes on the mound again.

I like this trade too.

I can only imagine what Reyes' ERA would be, playing in the AL East. You really have to wonder what the Blue Jays see in him. No really, you do. :headscratch:

[HomerTheBrave]

Seems like the naysayers on this deal are completely dismissing Tim Collins because of his size. Yes, a 5'7" pitcher dominating major league hitters is a complete rarity. But so is a 20 yr old, 5'7" pitcher who dominates AA hitters the way he's been doing. He's been dominating at each level and hasn't experienced even the slightest drop off in performance despite a pretty aggressive promotion plan given his age.

I wouldn't dismiss this guy as being a nothing chip in this deal just because he is short. One of the biggest reasons it's so rare to find guys Collins size pitching in the majors is they never even get a shot. Collins himself wasn't drafted. The biggest initial hurdle for all the shorter stature guys is to be given the initial chance and then quickly impress the doubters with their performance. Once their over that hump, it then comes down to their results against the next guy (height be damned). Collins cleared the biggest hurdle when he was given his first shot by Toronto and dominated. Nobody signs a 5'7" pitcher so he must have blown them away in a tryout. At this point his height really doesn't matter anymore because he's proven it doesn't matter. It's not like AAA and major league hitters have some special "hit the short guy" skills that the AA ballers and below lack. It's now only about numbers and results for Collins and you have to like what he's got there.
we're not the ones dismissing the fact....
Fact is lefty "short" relief is the least of our problems....

[luvdembravos]

I believe team chemistry is important and the Braves' team chemistry will even be better by dumping Escobar who clearly was not "one of the boys" IMO. I mean, who could really like Yunie? His mother probably doesn't like him.

Let's face it, Escobar was a big d-bag but he did have enormous "star like" potential. I just don't think he has the make-up to ever be a star.

For this year, the trade was O.K. because I don't think Escobar was going to give us anything in the second half. Long term, the trade will have a negative impact because we'll be looking for a long-term solution for short stop (but the Braves' brass probably figured they were going to be in that position anyway since Escobar wasn't the type of ball player they wanted around).

[HomerTheBrave]

why are we focused on things that don't affect the team like the minor leaguers and Reyes?
jo-jo was another non factor in this deal since he was never ever freakin ever in the plans to pitch for the braves and he was simply there in AAA just waiting to be a throw in for a deal like this...
This is about NOW,the Braves right now....did they improve? dunno..

[HomerTheBrave]

I believe team chemistry is important and the Braves' team chemistry will even be better by dumping Escobar who clearly was not "one of the boys" IMO. I mean, who could really like Yunie? His mother probably doesn't like him.

Let's face it, Escobar was a big d-bag but he did have enormous "star like" potential. I just don't think he has the make-up to ever be a star.

For this year, the trade was O.K. because I don't think Escobar was going to give us anything in the second half. Long term, the trade will have a negative impact because we'll be looking for a long-term solution for short stop (but the Braves' brass probably figured they were going to be in that position anyway since Escobar wasn't the type of ball player they wanted around).
i just gotta make a comment about this.
I met Yunel at a braves-marlins game last month along with melky,omar,prado....they seem to be cool with each other...I was sitting next to Yunel's family and friends, it was a big cast....looked like ten of them ,including his mom.
He's just inmature..especially on the field

[bmcvay10]

I don't think we really improved the talent of our team with this deal. However, I think we improved in other areas. The clubhouse/chemistry should be improved...if that's even possible with the way these guys seem to get along with one another. Also, as I stated in my previous post, I feel like FW is prepping for a pretty big deal.

Yes, we sold low on Yunel. Then again, there's no guarantee that his lack of power is just temporary. For a 27 year old guy with limited experience, who hasn't hit a home run in nearly a full season...and a lefty that literally had next to zero shot of returning to the bigs as a Brave...I'd say we got a heck of a lot more than most would ask for.

In the end, I don't really foresee us looking back on this trade and viewing it as anything less than a break even deal. Hopefully A-Gon will become a bit more patient in this lineup (.296 career OB%...brutal). Regardless, he really can't be worse than Yunel had been in the first half of the season.

I remain confident that there is a bigger deal to come. Even if there isn't, I still think this was a decent trade for us.

[wordslayer©]

It's a bad deal. We can justify it however we want, but it's a bad deal when you look at the talent that was exchanged.

This chemistry $hit is such a red herring to me. Someone, anyone, should provide any evidence where good chemistry wins championships. Show me the evidence where bad chemistry loses them. History is littered with teams that fought like hell with each other that went on to win. Look at some of the old Oakland A's teams that won. Look at some of the old Yankee's teams that won. Chemistry was the last thing they had. You cannot prove a negative, and I think that's why the term chemistry is often used to justify something you want to do for whatever reason. It just gives you cover to hide behind.

We are winning. We have been on fire. If this is bad chemistry that we have, then send it to me in spades.

I never liked Escobar. I didn't hate him, but he isn't the kind of player that I like. He's going to be better and we sold out on him too soon, just like we did KJ.

We are a good team. We will still be fine. However, I don't even begin to think this was anything close to a trade that we win. But like maybe BCMVCMVBCM said, this could be a trade to make a trade.

I don't think the braves ever really liked Escobar. I think they sort of held their nose and tolerated him as long as he played well, but now that he struggled for the first half, they now can justify getting rid of him.

We have bad chemistry, ya know. Clubhouse in disarray. Players not performing like they should. Spiraling downward record. A vortex that is just sucking the life out of all our starters. Bad chemistry. Maybe now we can play well.

[Andy G.]

Well, team chemistry is much more important in the minds of a lot of people than it is to some, obviously. It is impossible to determine just how important it is, or whether or not it is wise for a general manager to make decisions like this based on chemistry.

Also, it's likely that Wren and the rest of the front office have evaluated Escobar's play and his actions and come to the conclusion that he will never stop getting in his own way. It may be that, in their minds, he will never reach his full potential because of his lack of maturity.

The bottom line is that these things are taken into consideration by most of the people who work for baseball teams. Fans, especially the ones that are into sabermetrics, downplay the importance of psychology in baseball.

It doesn't matter who's right. All that matters is that the front office and the players in the dugout didn't like having a teammate who acted the way Escobar did, and they felt the best thing was to cut ties with him. It's not like we just got rid of a .900 OPS player. Escobar is not easy to replace by any means, but he's not impossible to replace either. The 2010 version of Escobar actually is easy to replace, so it's just a matter of getting him out of town, having a suitable replacement to at the very least continue giving us the production we've got from shortstop so far this year, then worrying about finding that long term guy in the offseason, or maybe even in the offseason after that.

[MississippiBrave91]

Man i hate to see escobar go. Seems like only yesterday i was watching the guy down in pearl getting excited like a little girl over what he was about to bring to the club. Me thinks gonzo is going to fit in really well with the organization though and we may have even stolen our future closer in the deal.

[wordslayer©]

I like how your rage blinds you at times.

I understand your frustration over this deal. Without having delved too far into this trade just yet (as I'm still at work) I'm still pretty disappointed we didn't net a Travis Snider or something like that out of them. I opined to Dreamscape early last week about the potential of trading Escobar for outfielders with equal service time and we both agreed that while it "works in theory" that there just wasn't any type of outfielder that would be worth our time or available in such a trade. I'm still not happy about this trade as it is...but I think your anger over this has made you make a silly statement above.

Kelly Johnson just needed a change of scenery. It was painfully obvious, slayer. For whatever reason, Atlanta was just not going to be the place that guy was going to succeed. Call it choking. Call it Terry Pendleton. Call it a neutral home park. Kelly J just needed an opportunity to get a fresh start with lowered expectations and zero pressure. He got it and he took off.

As for Escobar. While I agree that we sold low on him, as I stated above, his apparent immaturity was something that the organization felt just was not conducive to him ever becoming more than what he showed in Atlanta. Perhaps they felt an Andruw-esque pitfall was on the horizon. Maybe they felt a reduced role in the lineup would create a Francoeurish backlash. Heck...maybe he said things and behaved in such a way behind closed doors which were completely inexcusable and burned bridges in and out of town that prompted this trade which came swift and suddenly.

There are a lot of things that only Escobar, Cox, Wren and the Braves back office knows about in this situation. While it may be a stretch to say something went down behind the scenes that didn't get caught by some type of media...it can't be ruled out that his attitude deteriorated when he lost some time to Omar Infante recently.

A) My rage is never blind. It has 20/20 vision. It is never ambiguous. It is clearly defined. It never waxes and it never wanes. If my rage were mathematics, it would be the theory of relativity. It is perfect defined and true.

B) I'm really not frustrated with the deal. I think we got beat on it, that's all.

C) I don't think my statement was silly at all. I do think we sold out too soon on KJ. The reason I say this is....well,,,,,,,because he has been like really, really, really good.

D) KJ has been really good. Escobar, I believe, will be better than Gonzalez. Given I believe both those things, then it's my opinion that Wren has mucked up on these two deals.

Here is where I disagree with you....you said:

"Kelly Johnson just needed a change of scenery. It was painfully obvious, slayer. For whatever reason, Atlanta was just not going to be the place that guy was going to succeed. Call it choking. Call it Terry Pendleton. Call it a neutral home park. Kelly J just needed an opportunity to get a fresh start with lowered expectations and zero pressure. He got it and he took off."

I just don't believe things like this. I don't believe that players need changes of scenery. By the time they have reached the major leagues, they've seen scenery change a million times. I don't believe that he chokes with one team but doesn't choke with another. I believe that these are all reasons that we use to justify whatever happens to a ballplayer. Go pull up any record of most any major league player in history and you will see variances in their performances. Sometimes, even great players, can go through stages where they stink. If a change of scenery made a crappy player good, then we would see statistics that indicated that in a *consistent* manner.

About your comments on Escobar, I think you are right. I think he did behave in a juvenile manner. But my opinion is.....so what? Manager's have had to deal with dicks in the clubhouse since the inception of baseball. That's part of being a manager.......being able to handle the jerks while still being able to win...which we were doing.

And finally, I don't hate Wren. Actually, I kind of like him, but my opinion is.....I think he shouldn't have made the KJ deal and I think he lost out on this one.

And I swear to you...if I make it out to the island, I am hunting your a$$ down and you are buying me pina colada's the entire week I'm there for accusing me of making silly statements. That silly statement of mine, as you called it, may seem silly tonight, but you go back and reread it in three or four days and you will see that it kind of grew and blossomed into a more mature statement.

[RiknTN]

The mental aspect of baseball and human beings intermixing to form a "team" is real and just simply can't be dismissed. These guys aren't robots without emotions and feelings and temperments. Players thrive in certain conditions and don't in others. KJ didn't work out here. He did elsewhere. Renteria thrived here. He didn't elsewhere. Kind of the "x" factor. Escobar wasn't working out here. He may somewere else. Would you produce at your chosen vocation at the same level of production no matter where you worked and who you worked under and around? No one does.....usually.

[alaskabravesfan]

How Escobar does as a Blue Jay is irrelevant. He wasn't going to do it as a Brave so what does it matter?

Same thing applies with Jo-Jo.

They both had plenty of chances to do good with the Braves. Time to cut them loose and see what we can get from AGon.

:thumbsup: We all know that Bobby Cox isn't going to throw his players under the bus. So I think we can safely assume that Yunie was causing lots of trouble behind the scenes as well as on the field... Credit to Frank Wren for pulling off this trade.

[wordslayer©]

Slayer, you and I normally agree on a lot of things...but I think your argument supports that Kelly J needed a change of scenery. Sure...a player's scenery changes a lot on their way to the majors, but for whatever reason...Kelly J stopped hitting once he reached Atlanta; at least the consistency disappeared.

I also don't think it's a surprise that, upon reaching a notorious hitter's park, Kelly J exploded. Are we seeing the real Kelly Johnson this season? Absolutely not, IMO. Did we cut bait too soon? Probably. But still...Kelly Johnson needed another opportunity elsewhere. That's just plain and simple. There's no arguing that.

And on Escobar. You agree that he was not behaving in a manner which a grown adult should. However, you fail to recognize that there is probably more to this situation than you and I both know. You assume he was behaving in such a manner that was controllable and fixable. Maybe he wasn't? View it this way. If this were a marriage, this one went to counselling before calling it quits. Sure, they could've worked through 3 more rough years behind closed doors....but perhaps there was a domestic beating behind those closed doors? Who knows. It doesn't look very good from the outside looking in, but inside the house there could be a completely different story.

And silly statement might have been a bad term to use. Perhaps brash was a better term. Or perhaps a slight overreaction. What I mean is that, despite your usually grounded opinions, this one seemed overly emotional as you had attached a situation which invokes emotion within you (the KJ situation) and linked it by similarity to the Yunel situation. These were moves made with other driving forces and your statements just seem to be driven without considering what other things brought them to fruition.

Let me just try to simplify what I am saying......

It doesn't matter what happens with KJ or to Escobar. Because people *wanted* them traded, they will make whatever happens after the fact fit what they want to think. If Escobar succeeds wildly somewhere else, then it will be because of any number of reasons. If he stinks somewhere else, then we will process it as our GM being sharp enough to recognize what was going to happen and he dumped him at just the right time.

Everyone wants to think he was a clubhouse cancer and that Bobby had had enough and wanted him gone. That may all be well and true. Neither you nor I know what really went on behind the scenes. What I think is this.......

I think that Escobar will be a better player, by a significant amount, over Gonzalez. I think that Escobar will have a longer career. I think that Escobar will be a much better player. Based on those assumptions, then I think it was a bad trade.

All the chemistry stuff is just fluff to me. It's a red herring.

I was just teasing you about the silly comment of mine. It's all good.

[HomerTheBrave]

I just wanted to throw myself into this discussion regarding change of scenery...while rading slayers comments about not buying this change thing, i thought of Paul O'neill from the reds to the yankmees...Paul was a consistant 260 hitter with the reds for about 5 or 6 years, until he joined ny,where he became a 320 hitter for about 6 or 7 yrs....coincidence? i dunno...
Slayer , maybe you're taking this change of scenery a little too literally..its not just about moving from one place to another, its more like a change of philosophy,teamates,coaches and like bfh said,expectations....

we cannot assume that kj would be doing for us what he's doing for arizona...we just can't.

[wordslayer©]

The mental aspect of baseball and human beings intermixing to form a "team" is real and just simply can't be dismissed. These guys aren't robots without emotions and feelings and temperments. Players thrive in certain conditions and don't in others. KJ didn't work out here. He did elsewhere. Renteria thrived here. He didn't elsewhere. Kind of the "x" factor. Escobar wasn't working out here. He may somewere else. Would you produce at your chosen vocation at the same level of production no matter where you worked and who you worked under and around? No one does.....usually.

Interesting post, Ric.

Honestly, I believe that people do perform pretty much the same no matter where they work. It's why people who get promoted often reach the top of the ladder wherever they go and it's why people who never get promoted usually keep the same position in life no matter where they work. One thing about people...the $hitty ones usually remain $hitty and the good ones usually remain good.

I think each of us, for those who care, strive to do our best no matter what environment we find ourselves in.

[wordslayer©]

I just wanted to throw myself into this discussion regarding change of scenery...while rading slayers comments about not buying this change thing, i thought of Paul O'neill from the reds to the yankmees...Paul was a consistant 260 hitter with the reds for about 5 or 6 years, until he joined ny,where he became a 320 hitter for about 6 or 7 yrs....coincidence? i dunno...
Slayer , maybe you're taking this change of scenery a little too literally..its not just about moving from one place to another, its more like a change of philosophy,teamates,coaches and like bfh said,expectations....

we cannot assume that kj would be doing for us what he's doing for arizona...we just can't.

I understand what you are saying, but I am saying that there isn't a "mystic" quality to a player performing better somewhere over somewhere else. It's not like he was released from jail from team A, but found freedom in team B. You may get a LITTLE bounce of some type, but even that may be a stretch.

If there is a TRUE difference, then we need to look harder. For example, with Paul O'neill.....what about a left handed hitter in a left handed hitters park? What about the possibility of steroids? What about league differences? In other words, there will be a TANGIBLE reason he will be better.

If we can't "SEE" the reason that a player may be better or may be worse, then you don't assign a reason to it, because you might think something fits, or because it sounds like it makes sense.

And by the same token:

we cannot assume that KJ wouldn't be doing for us just as he is doing for arizona.

[HomerTheBrave]

I actually think the play that actually kissed Esco goodbye was when he feilded a ground ball which he charged and lolly-gagged it to Glaus which he almost broke his wrist when the runner ran into the tag.
I saw that play and was in disbelief he didn't make an actual throw...

[RiknTN]

Interesting post, Ric.

Honestly, I believe that people do perform pretty much the same no matter where they work. It's why people who get promoted often reach the top of the ladder wherever they go and it's why people who never get promoted usually keep the same position in life no matter where they work. One thing about people...the $hitty ones usually remain $hitty and the good ones usually remain good.

I think each of us, for those who care, strive to do our best no matter what environment we find ourselves in.

We just have to agree to disagree. I like Bryce's marriage scenario. I know if I'm miserable because of my surroundings, or co-workers, or present girlfriend, I don't perform as well. Move on to better or different work philosophy, or better boss, better co-workers, better GF, and I perform much better. Just don't think you can remove the "human" element out of things so easily. Some people might can be the best they can be while remaining oblivious to their surroundings. But I don't think many people can actually really do that.

[wordslayer©]

We just have to agree to disagree. I like Bryce's marriage scenario. I know if I'm miserable because of my surroundings, or co-workers, or present girlfriend, I don't perform as well. Move on to better or different work philosophy, or better boss, better co-workers, better GF, and I perform much better. Just don't think you can remove the "human" element out of things so easily. Some people might can be the best they can be while remaining oblivious to their surroundings. But I don't think many people can actually really do that.

And by the same token, if you extend the logic, second marriages for those same unhappy people have the same divorce rate as the first ones do.

I guess, if I could see any evidence of this, any hard numbers, then I would fall in line with this line of thought. And in sports, when trying to measure things like this, you just cannot find the independent variable. And if you can't find that, then how in the world can we get the information we need to make these kinds of assumptions? That's all I was trying to say.

[wordslayer©]

For what it's worth...I didn't want Kelly Johnson to be gone. In defense of my suggestion to trade him or non-tender him, it was statements made based on what the organization would do based on several corresponding factors surrounding his situation. Just so happens it was one of the few things I was "right" about them doing.

On Escobar, I'm still not supporting this trade. I believe heavily that this will induce a corresponding trade in which we deal from our left-handed relief pitching depth. Whether or not I will like that deal when it happens remains to be seen.

I also agree that Escobar is, by far, the better player for the longer term. We could have retained him for 3 years. We can only retain Gonzalez for 2. Escobar also has a higher offensive ceiling and plays slightly better defense. This deal just had to have been made based on personality issues that we have not heard about it. The prospects we received back just don't justify it. I agree.

Yet...I still feel the situations of Kelly Johnson and Escobar are completely different except for the fact that both situations have a lot of supposed supporting evidence that support the decisions made. Do I agree with them? Not really...but from an organizational standpoint, it "makes sense".

Well said---and I would feel better if there were some kind of follow up on this that would please me, so I do hope you are right.

[KB 34]

I'm not sure if I was surprised or not to read Escobar was traded this afternoon. Many will remember there was talk about Escobar's attitude potentially leading to him being traded last season. There are managerial areas I don't trust Bobby Cox in such as managing a bullpen over the course of the season without blowing out at least one pitcher's arm. However, I have complete and total confidence in his ability to handle clubhous situations and help the GM make the decision about when it's time to deal a player because their head isn't on correctly. My position on trading Escobar remains the same as it did a year ago, I support the Braves trading Escobar if he's reached that point where Bobby Cox wants such a talented player gone.

I don't understand the notion that the Braves didn't like Escobar. Early on in his career he platooned with KJ for a short while before moving to ss full time when Edgar Renteria was traded. In the Teix deal the Braves sent Elvis Andrus out of town. The Braves acquired Brent Lillibridge and later traded him. If the Braves didn't like Escobar, then why was Escobar in a Braves uniform this season and not one of the others, or the successor to one of Renteria, Lillibridge, or Andrus? Andrus has even developed into an All Star before being traded.

From a talent point of view the Braves may have lost, but they did the important thing and that was get a solid stopgap ss to fill the void until a longer term option for ss can be found. Given the names listed above and Furcal the Braves have a long history of having a good ss and I'm not too concerned about the Braves figuring something really good out. I wouldn't overlook the importance of getting more power in the lineup either. The Braves started the season with, in my opinion, McLouth as their top leadoff man and slugger. When the Braves had Glaus and Hinske breakout the offense went from bottom 2 in the NL to top 2 in the NL. Yes, he's probably playing over his head. No, I'm not going to deny he's an injury risk to play fewer than 115 games in a given season. I don't think that takes into the bigger picture, which is the deal focused on getting rid of Escobar in exchange for the best ss available, preserving the playoff run in the process.

[RiknTN]

And by the same token, if you extend the logic, second marriages for those same unhappy people have the same divorce rate as the first ones do.

I guess, if I could see any evidence of this, any hard numbers, then I would fall in line with this line of thought. And in sports, when trying to measure things like this, you just cannot find the independent variable. And if you can't find that, then how in the world can we get the information we need to make these kinds of assumptions? That's all I was trying to say.

A 2nd marriage that doesn't work doesn't mean you don't keep changing until you get it right or stop altogether. A 2nd team for a player doesn't mean it will be better than the first. But when it's not working you change things in hopes that it will. Our fundamental difference of opinion is that I don't believe everything in life or sports can be measured and determined by numbers and tangible hard evidence. Way after the fact you have the numbers and data to assimilate the data. But not at the time that you have to actually make the decisions. And as someone else here said.....it wasn't working here....for KJ or for Escobar....for different reasons......so it was time to try a different path.

[RiknTN]

I don't understand the notion that the Braves didn't like Escobar. Early on in his career he platooned with KJ for a short while before moving to ss full time when Edgar Renteria was traded. In the Teix deal the Braves sent Elvis Andrus out of town. The Braves acquired Brent Lillibridge and later traded him. If the Braves didn't like Escobar, then why was Escobar in a Braves uniform this season and not one of the others, or the successor to one of Renteria, Lillibridge, or Andrus?

At the time they traded Andrus and Lillibridge they still hoped that Escobar would mature. He never did that. They had seen enough. It was time for him to move on. Looking back they might should have kept one of those other guys. But hindsight is 20/20. Their past decision didn't work out.

[KB 34]

At the time they traded Andrus and Lillibridge they still hoped that Escobar would mature. He never did that. They had seen enough. It was time for him to move on. Looking back they might should have kept one of those other guys. But hindsight is 20/20. Their past decision didn't work out.
I definitely agree the Braves thought Escobar would mature and become a real asset for the team. I just remembered the Furcal and Peavy situations, which I haven't quite put into perspective in my mind yet. I find the Braves reasoning for keeping Escobar so long quite logical at the time and in hindsight, so I applaud their moves since I feel the Braves made a safe gamble and lost, which sometimes happens.

[IkeWagner]

Seems like the naysayers on this deal are completely dismissing Tim Collins because of his size. Yes, a 5'7" pitcher dominating major league hitters is a complete rarity. But so is a 20 yr old, 5'7" pitcher who dominates AA hitters the way he's been doing. He's been dominating at each level and hasn't experienced even the slightest drop off in performance despite a pretty aggressive promotion plan given his age.

I wouldn't dismiss this guy as being a nothing chip in this deal just because he is short. One of the biggest reasons it's so rare to find guys Collins size pitching in the majors is they never even get a shot. Collins himself wasn't drafted. The biggest initial hurdle for all the shorter stature guys is to be given the initial chance and then quickly impress the doubters with their performance. Once their over that hump, it then comes down to their results against the next guy (height be damned). Collins cleared the biggest hurdle when he was given his first shot by Toronto and dominated. Nobody signs a 5'7" pitcher so he must have blown them away in a tryout. At this point his height really doesn't matter anymore because he's proven it doesn't matter. It's not like AAA and major league hitters have some special "hit the short guy" skills that the AA ballers and below lack. It's now only about numbers and results for Collins and you have to like what he's got there.

I agree. Scouts want big pitchers because big pitchers have the best chance to develop good stuff as they mature. Good stuff is the ultimate goal -- height is merely a means to an end. But, based on his performance in the minors, it appears Collins has already realized that end. Moreover, contra Dream, I have never seen any evidence that small pitchers are more likely to get injured. So who cares about his height?

[IkeWagner]

I can sympathize to some degree with the idea that team chemistry is overrated, and it certainly is difficult, if not impossible, to quantify. But chemistry doesn't seem to me to be the issue. The issue is that other Braves players are becoming frustrated by the (defensive) play of Escobar. And the idea that frustration of this sort can negatively affect play is much more plausible than the idea that a bad apple in the clubhouse (i.e., less-than-perfect "chemistry") can negatively affect play.

[AhbBrave]

I agree. Scouts want big pitchers because big pitchers have the best chance to develop good stuff as they mature. Good stuff is the ultimate goal -- height is merely a means to an end. But, based on his performance in the minors, it appears Collins has already realized that ultimate end. Moreover, contra Dream, I have never seen any evidence that small pitchers are more likely to get injured. So who cares about his height?
the evidence is, since they are smaller they weigh about 30 pounds less or more, which is huge, because they are putting a lot more strain on thier arm to throw that 94 mph then say a 6'2 240 pounder.

[HomerTheBrave]

not to mention the fact that his reach towards the plate is almost a foot shorter,which means more time to see the pitch..

but still,I really applaud his performance so far..i can see him becoming an effective ground ball pitcher, a high strike for him would end up at the knees...

has there been anyone as short as 5'7" that has pitched? that's gonna be interesting to see..

[KB 34]

Rik touched upon it briefly...and I'll be honest and say I didn't read carefully through any of the posts since I got home, but this stuck out to me.

Renteria was traded as a clear sell-high. He had just come off another career year in which he hit .332, .390, .470...thanks in large part to a ridiculous BABIP of .375 (his career BABIP is .318 for comparison's sake). They traded Renteria with good knowledge that Escobar would be able to handle the position. So that wasn't based on how much the Braves liked Yunel. Though, you didn't really say they went to Escobar because they liked him...

In the Teixeira deal, they sent Andrus to Texas. Arguably, they could have thought that Andrus was still 3+ years away from making it to the majors. I mean...wasn't he still 19 or something like that when we dealt him? While it wasn't unreasonable to expect Andrus to make it to the majors a season later, it was still a stretch and a surprise to some.

As for Lillibridge...I don't think there's even any type of comparison, skill-wise, you can make. Lillibridge could be a serviceable shortstop...but Yunel had the potential to be a superstar.

It was just a timeline of events that caused Escobar to be here. First...it was the convenience of having someone with that potential being ready once Edgar spiked his trade value to the highest it's been since the '90s. Then it was circumstance of Escobar being the only "ready/established" guy we had at the time of the Teixeira trade. Then it was a case of apples and oranges when it came time to trade Lillibridge. I don't think Escobar was kept because the front office "liked" him or thought he was the epitome of good behavior and attitude. I think he was kept around for his potential.
I definitely see your point with the situations surrounding the various ss deals. I guess what really strikes me is since Escobar became the everyday starter in 2008 the only positions without a major change have been C, 3B, and ss. The Braves have had one really good catching prospect and one good catching prospect come through the system in McCann's time. High quality ss production/talent has been easy to come by for the Braves. For various reasons all the others were sent off except for Escobar. Of course circumstance is important, but I think with Escobar there became a clear trend. Maybe liking him isn't the best characterization, but I think the Braves did believe in him strongly.

[IkeWagner]

the evidence is, since they are smaller they weigh about 30 pounds less or more, which is huge, because they are putting a lot more strain on thier arm to throw that 94 mph then say a 6'2 240 pounder.

Not necessarily. It is reasonable to suppose that smaller pitchers, on the whole, have better mechanics, because, since they didn't have the luxury of relying on height, they had to learn to use their body more efficiently. And efficient mechanics obviously means decreased risk of injury.

[Dreamscape]

Not necessarily. It is reasonable to suppose that smaller pitchers, on the whole, have better mechanics, because, since they didn't have the luxury of relying on height, they had to learn to use their body more efficiently. And efficient mechanics obviously means decreased risk of injury.
They are more compact, yes, but they tend to need funky, unnatural deliveries to get the same stuff as a taller pitcher, increasing the chance that the wear on their arm will cause injury and a loss of effectiveness. Obviously, there is a reason why the majority of Hall of Fame pitchers are at least 6'0", especially when you take out the deadball era. And in Collins' case, his delivery has invoked Lincecum's delivery. Obviously, Tim Lincecum is a freak of nature and has stayed remarkably healthy and durable, but he is generally considered the exception to the rule.

And true, there are exceptions to every rule. But it's not as if the Blue Jays system was stacked before this deal and we are essentially talking about a max 3 star prospect, a pitcher who will have done well to become a LOOGY at the major league level where his deception could hurt the Ryan Howard's of the world. And those players are valuable, just not overly so.

It's not that Collins' size will eliminate his chances for success...but it does limit him. And the thing that really scares me is the general consensus is 5'7" is really, really kind to him. How tall is he actually? Could I, at 5'4", look at him in the eye?

Regardless, arguing the merits of what likely will be a LOOGY in a perfect world projection says a lot about this deal, to come full circle. This is what is ultimately the hope. That Gonzalez can not only put up a .450 SLG with a weak OBP and play decent short, but provide bunches and bunches of happy thoughts and play a harp with angels in the background so that the chemistry will lead the Braves to the promise land. Meanwhile, Esco continues to struggle, hates dealing with the exchange rate, and ultimately goes back to Cuba and fails to make a beer league there? Seriously, I guess Wren's bet is that Gonzalez will provide that one extra win over Esco in the second half and help the Braves fend off any challengers for the East crown. Nobody even wants to bring up Gonzalez's penchant for injuries, either. But that's okay, Infante can play short and since the rest of the infield stays healthy, no problem.

Yeah, I still don't like this deal. I don't think Collins makes it better. I get no enjoyment over Reyes moving on. I don't buy into team chemistry because, as slayer pointed out, if the Braves had a problem with chemistry that led them to the best record in the NL, than I'll keep the problem rather than mess with it just to appease the old man in his last season. Mostly everyone believes the Braves sold low on Escobar, but chemistry will provide the unquantitative equalizer.

I just don't buy it. Tomorrow, hopefully, I start a second half of being wrong. But my kneejerk reaction will go down as a bad deal.

[Andy G.]

Seriously, I guess Wren's bet is that Gonzalez will provide that one extra win over Esco in the second half and help the Braves fend off any challengers for the East crown. Nobody even wants to bring up Gonzalez's penchant for injuries, either. But that's okay, Infante can play short and since the rest of the infield stays healthy, no problem.


Yeah, I still don't like this deal. I don't think Collins makes it better. I get no enjoyment over Reyes moving on. I don't buy into team chemistry because, as slayer pointed out, if the Braves had a problem with chemistry that led them to the best record in the NL, than I'll keep the problem rather than mess with it just to appease the old man in his last season. Mostly everyone believes the Braves sold low on Escobar, but chemistry will provide the unquantitative equalizer.

I just don't buy it. Tomorrow, hopefully, I start a second half of being wrong. But my kneejerk reaction will go down as a bad deal.
I don't necessarily think that Wren believes this will give us one extra win. I don't even believe, truly, that Wren thinks we're better off since we made this trade. At the very least, however, we're as good as we have been so far this season.

Escobar gave us nothing with that bat this year, and we still hold the best record in the National League. We have reinforcements coming in Jason Heyward and Nate McLouth, not to mention the likely second half surge of Brian McCann and Chipper Jones (though Chipper is not as close to a sure bet). Gonzalez will give us what Yunel did in the first half, and he might even give us a lot more than that, making this trade look like a slam freakin' dunk (I'm saying he might...not that he should or will).

So, even though Escobar is the better player, and there's a good chance he'll have a better second half than Gonzalez anyway, we're definitely capable of being just as successful and actually even more successful in the second half despite that possibility (or probability). Considering the importance of "team chemistry" is immeasurable, and the fact that a vast majority of baseball players take chemistry very seriously, why not go ahead and make the deal? Make everyone in the organization happy and get rid of the one guy on this team that brings the level of morale down. He was a "cancer", as it is used in sports terms, and he's been eliminated from the equation. We didn't get equal value, and it's likely that Escobar will perform better than Gonzalez in the next year and a half, but that doesn't mean this trade doesn't help the team.

[tgm718]

Further proof the Braves are going all out in Bobby's last season. Gonzalez immediately becomes the leader in home runs on our team. I like the move.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

Yunel had to go...No this might not have been the dream package for him that some may have wanted or expected, but it's not a deal I'd say we got hosed on either. We got a Servicable SS(we weren't going to land a better option then Gonzalez at the deadline even if we dealt Escobar in a different trade), a 2nd LH option for the Pen, and another trade piece.

Sure Yunel could go on to return to 2009 form and give the Jays .300/.375/.440/.815 with dependable albeit sometimes boneheaded defense, but we could also see Gonzalez give us his a more then dependable 1.5 and a half seasons at SS, a LH Late Inning Power Arm, a Good Glove 20 HR bat for the Middle INF, and a potenial big league player in the form of a sandwich pick when Gonzalez is let go after next season...

The last part is high hopes sure, but lets give it time... I'd expect Yunel to go on to give the Jays somewhere close .285/.360/.425/.785 with his typical defense although who knows how it'll turn out on turf...

This move isn't one that will make us run away with the division, but it is one that will help us keep the lead...

I'd expect this to increase the likley hoods of another deal, with Possibly Mike Dunn being included

[Lauren T.]

It's not that Collins' size will eliminate his chances for success...but it does limit him. And the thing that really scares me is the general consensus is 5'7" is really, really kind to him. How tall is he actually? Could I, at 5'4", look at him in the eye?
I thought that exact thing. A guy saying he's 5'10" is like a girl saying she weighs 135. It's probably not true when you get up close. :D

[IkeWagner]

They are more compact, yes, but they tend to need funky, unnatural deliveries to get the same stuff as a taller pitcher, increasing the chance that the wear on their arm will cause injury and a loss of effectiveness.

But what might appear unnatural may in fact be biomechanically more efficient, at least for that specific player. It seems plausible to me that there would be an idiosyncratic element to biomechanical efficiency, such that what may seem very stressful for a pitcher might in fact be more efficient for him, given his unique size and weight distribution and the like, than would be a more "conventional" delivery. But all of this is inconclusive. What we would need to decide this are actual statistics on injury rates among smaller pitchers and larger pitchers.

Obviously, there is a reason why the majority of Hall of Fame pitchers are at least 6'0", especially when you take out the deadball era.

The HOF is a pretty elite class; I'd be cautious about drawing general conclusions based on such a small sample.

This is what is ultimately the hope. That Gonzalez can not only put up a .450 SLG with a weak OBP and play decent short, but provide bunches and bunches of happy thoughts and play a harp with angels in the background so that the chemistry will lead the Braves to the promise land. Meanwhile, Esco continues to struggle, hates dealing with the exchange rate, and ultimately goes back to Cuba and fails to make a beer league there? Seriously, I guess Wren's bet is that Gonzalez will provide that one extra win over Esco in the second half and help the Braves fend off any challengers for the East crown. Nobody even wants to bring up Gonzalez's penchant for injuries, either. But that's okay, Infante can play short and since the rest of the infield stays healthy, no problem.

Yeah, I still don't like this deal. I don't think Collins makes it better. I get no enjoyment over Reyes moving on. I don't buy into team chemistry because, as slayer pointed out, if the Braves had a problem with chemistry that led them to the best record in the NL, than I'll keep the problem rather than mess with it just to appease the old man in his last season. Mostly everyone believes the Braves sold low on Escobar, but chemistry will provide the unquantitative equalizer.

I just don't buy it. Tomorrow, hopefully, I start a second half of being wrong. But my kneejerk reaction will go down as a bad deal.

Though I disagree that Collins does not make the deal any better, it is hard for me to disagree with the basic point here. All it took for me was a quick glance at Gonzalez's OPS. How do you hit 17 homers and 25 doubles at this point in the season and not even have an .800 OPS? It is quite likely that we will see severe dropping-off in slugging percentage in the second half, and we have no real reason to think OBP will go up; and those two things would seem to me to overshadow any considerations about team chemistry.

[Dreamscape]

and a potenial big league player in the form of a sandwich pick when Gonzalez is let go after next season...
For what it's worth, that sandwich pick is no certainty. He was borderline under MLBTradeRumors' unofficial Elias rankings in the AL and I'm not sure how that translates to the NL. And he was, again, having essentially a career year to become borderline.

What astounds me about this career year and his OBP has stayed in Francoeur form, much like his career. And if the focus of baseball is not make outs, the Braves basically acquired a Melky Cabrera with 20 homerun ability? That very much concerns me, especially when we already had him before his thankful banishment to Flushing last year. Remember, the 17 HR and 50 RBI he has do not help the Braves out one iota. For the record, in his 10 seasons in the NL, Gonzalez has posted a .245/.293/.393 clip. The power he has posted this year is largely attributed to his seven homerun April. Since then, .247/.287/.442 (OPS of .729) with 10 homers. In the same time period, Escobar had posted a .351 OBP. So, essentially, the Braves, on a purely statistical outlook, valued Gonzalez's SLG over Escobar's on-base ability. Career-wise, it's interesting to point out Escobar has the slightest of edges on Gonzalez's career slugging. By a point. But then, Esco's unforeseen .284 slugging this year plays a large part in that.

Ugh, this deal just depresses me.

[BigWorm]

Escobar hadn't hit a homerun in almost a year. Get over it Dreamscape. It was time for him to go.

[Dreamscape]

Escobar hadn't hit a homerun in almost a year. Get over it Dreamscape. It was time for him to go.
That is really not all that important to me. All it really says is history suggests he will either normalize his total to have more homers than his usual second half production or at the very least, hit 3 to 4 homers in the second half. Regardless, this idea that suddenly Gonzalez leads the team in homers is pretty absurd. He hasn't hit a homer for the Braves. History suggests he will hit some...maybe six or seven, I'd bet. If those majestic shots overshadow not reaching base 70% of the time, okay. But it's not winning baseball to have that.

Why was it time for Escobar to go? And if it was, why is it ever right to sell low, and the Braves sold very low. Hurry back to health and former hitting ability, McLouth, because a lineup with Cabrera and Gonzalez is not going to give the pitcher many opportunities to make that productive out.

[RiknTN]

Many reading too much into this trade. 95% of it was to get Escobar out of ATL. Not much more to it than that. It's just fluff that they are bragging on Gonzalez' hitting numbers for this yr. No one wanted Escobar on the field or in the clubhouse any longer. Simple as that.

[Hobbes]

Many reading too much into this trade. 95% of it was to get Escobar out of ATL. Not much more to it than that. It's just fluff that they are bragging on Gonzalez' hitting numbers for this yr. No one wanted Escobar on the field or in the clubhouse any longer. Simple as that.
Exactly. It wasn't a case of the Braves valuing Gonzalez's SLG over Escobar's OBP. It was a matter of getting rid of Escobar and trying to ensure that his replacement was a team contributor.

I always hate the idea of selling low on a player, but I can understand wanting to get rid of a player who won't get with the program, regardless of his perceived potential advantages. It isn't necessarily about improving team chemistry, but rather removing a player who just doesn't approach the game in a way that is consistent with the rest of the team. Escobar's potential to rebound doesn't excuse his poor attitude and lazy play. Superstars like Manny Ramirez can often get away with that crap, but not journeymen infielders.

The Braves felt they could exchange Yunel for Gonzalez without too much of a penalty on the field (and possibly an upgrade), and a significant upgrade in player attitude. I have no problem with that.

[quick]

Most of you are focusing on offense; Yunel's is bad now but it may recover. Certainly possible.

But his boots of routine grounders, his failure to hustle on the bases, his general inconsistency, and his sulking when corrected, all contributed to this mess. The AJC had a story this morning about a gapper he hit, driving in a run, and then his getting thrown out at second when even Big Papi would easily have made it--because Esky was trotting down the line, admiring his work, thinking it was a homer.

Esky just didn't put out the effort Bobby demands. Simple as that.

[luvdembravos]

The Braves' website reported today that players gave Gonzalez a standing ovation when he entered the clubhouse for the first time this afternoon. To me, that just shows how much they disliked Escobar.

Here's what Bobby Cox said about Gonzalez: "He comes to play. He's got no problems. He plays like a pro. The players like him."

Translated: Escobar didn't come to play; he had problems: he wasn't a pro and the players hated him." ;)

[Wahoo]

I completely understand the negative reactions to this deal. I think it would made the most sense to deal Escobar in the coming offseason. His value probably would have been higher than it was when we made this deal.

I believe his attitude was a huge factor, however, if it really were that big of an issue, we really should have dealt him this past offseason when his valued peaked. Of course, I think the Braves simply put up with him before because he produced. He stopped producing, so they stopped tolerating him.

I don't really think was a wise use of resources, but, at the same time, if he was that big of a d-bag, then I'm glad he's gone.

[KB 34]

I read the MLB article as Escobar being a constant distraction for the team and a complete pain in the neck. Screw Escobar. Gonzalez might not have the talent but he should produce and not require babysitting by the rest of the clubhouse. The focus needs to be on winning, not dealing with a little brat. Even if the deal decreases the Braves talent slightly I don't see how it doesn't improve the team overall. Some may thing players aren't affected by this type of behavior but I doubt it. The players don't live in 25 separate cages in the locker room and dugout afterall. I also have memories of the players who really didn't care hurting the Braves in the playoffs. This team doesn't seem to have that problem anymore and has some scary starting pitching with Jurrjens coming back and pitching well. This team has a ton of potential and needs to make a run right now. If a little talent in Escobar is the sacrifice to make the run then sign me up.

[Dreamscape]

I also have memories of the players who really didn't care hurting the Braves in the playoffs.
To be fair, players who really cared also hurt the Braves in the playoffs over the years.

[Agent-X-]

I'm really happy to have Alex Gonzalez. I just have this feeling that our team is better geared for a World Series run than it was before the trade. :)

[bravos4evr]

I think that the fans who have actually played baseball at a High School level or higher will understand this trade. The fans who just crunch numbers and don't "get" team chemistry will hate it.

It really matters if someone is a pita on yer team, if he is also really good, you can deal with it , to a certain extent, but if he's having a career low season and ALSO a cancer.... he need to go. I LOVE the deal.

It's no different to me than the poor Cubs and Zambrano situation.... He's so gone, and maybe for a bucket of sand this coming offseason.

[AhbBrave]

I think that the fans who have actually played baseball at a High School level or higher will understand this trade.


i agree, there was a player on my highschool team when we went to the state finals who was extremely detrimental, wasnt very good, very cocky, and was only playing because his pops donates the most, i hate highschool baseball politics.

[wordslayer©]

In the 1950's only 12% of the population, when polled, considered themselves important. By the 1990's, over 80% of the population consider themselves important. I'm not sure how that applies here, but it seems like it fits.

There are very few things that I think were done better 30-50 years ago that were better then than they are now. As a society, we just keep getting better as time moves forward.

However, the one thing I do think we did better back then more so than now is dealing with personal problems with each other. Got a problem with someone in these days, and it's called conflict resolution and you have various strategies to deal with it, from filing complaints, therapy, and god only knows the psychological bull$hit you have to go through to "work it out." Back in the 1950's guys just fought it out. A little barbaric? Probably, but it sure as he11 was effective, and it can be particularly effective in the alpha male word of athletes.

In Escobar's case, the first thing is, we have no idea what exactly he did that made everyone dislike him like they profess to do. If it was for dogging it or show boating, then they better ramp up their hate meters, because I can't see athletes doing any less of it over the next several years.

If I were Cox, here is the way I'd look at it. If Escobar had stolen something from another player, or slept with the wife of another player, or showed some kind of psychological disorder, then I think you have to move/trade him, even with a reduced value, and he might have done all of those things, but again, we don't know.

If Escobar has juvenile personality issues that players just hate about him, then you live with it, because that's what we all have to do in today's society. You hate the person you work with? You learn to live with them, learn to get along, address the issue and make it manageable, but the thing is....you learn to work together. This is what we all have to do. It's life. If you make 75,000 dollars a day to play a game, then all the more reason....you learn to work together.

In Cox's case with Escobar, it would be nice if someone on the team could have stepped in and grabbed Escobar by the collar and, as they did 30 years ago, "fought it out." This is where clubhouse leaders can be very effective. I played high school ball and I can tell you, there were guys on our team that you knew you didn't slack off on, because if you did, you would have had your a$$ handed to you when you hit the showers.

Someone posted something about how the braves player's all were clapping when Gonzalez walked into the locker room the first time, and I couldn't help but think to myself how pathetic that sounded. Are they really that petty? It sounded like a bunch of high school girls.

Players are paid millions of dollars a year to play ball and win. That's exactly what they were doing. If they aren't happy, then I'm sorry about it, but I've had very few employers in my life coming around to me checking on my happiness. If you want good friends and happiness, then take your 75,000 dollars a night and go buy some.

I think it wouldn't bother me so much if I had seen the organization take his a$$ out of the lineup for a while. At least then you could see if he could learn to better manage/modify his behaviors or mature. I didn't see them do that.

It just looked to me like they took the easy way out. Dump him while they are winning. No ones going to complain because he was playing poorly.

Knowing only what we can see, no matter how you choose to rationalize an emotional decision through intellectual processing, we traded a lot of talent at the worst possible value and ended up with a pretty $hitty player in return.

[bravos4evr]

I think it also needs to be mentioned that this has apparently been a problem since Escobar came to the Braves minor league system as well. It's been an ongoing problem that IMO finally just reached the point where Bobby said "no more". If it was a recent thing I would agree that the team jumped the gun. But as in the Zambrano situation, eventually you have to either suspend a guy or get rid of him! Even IF it means you lose a bit of value.

[CanadaBravesFan]

Esco was 3-4 with a GS and 5 RBI today. Yikes!

[Wahoo]

Responding first to the very last sentence: "Even IF it means you lose a bit of value". In this deal...it's not that we lost "a bit" in return for Escobar, it's that we basically showed him the door for a significant downgrade who is a "nice guy" and two prospects outside of the top 15 of another team's farm system. It's true that every cancerous type needs to be shown the door eventually, but if we did trade Escobar I think most hoped that we would've traded him for more. It's like slayer and others have said a lot lately. Sometimes you put up with these types as long as they are producing...but as soon as they stop, it's your best excuse to just fire them (or trade them for almost nothing in this case). It's not that anyone's disappointed we got rid of his personality....it's that we obviously took the first solidified offer we could get to rid of him. After all, it's been rumored lately that the Rays were willing to discuss Reid Brignac. While I'm not an expert and have not done the research on Brignac, I'd like to bet he's got a better upside than Alex Gonzalez.

I'd also like to respond to the Zambrano reference. I know you, or someone else, referenced Big Z recently as well. I think he and Escobar are in completely different classes when it comes to pains in the butt. Escobar is a valuable defender with upside for plus offense...on top of the fact that he will be affordable for at least the next 2 1/2 years (no telling what he'll make in his last year of arbitration, which would make it 3 1/2 years). Zambrano's an albatross contract with the pension for going completely ballistic whilst the cameras are pointed straight at him. Sure...they may be jerks in the same sort of light, but their contract situations are what differentiates them. Zambrano has absolutely no value. Thus...he is still a Cub. If he did have value, he'd be pitching elsewhere right now. Escobar did have value. We were receiving calls for him. We had to have been able to work a better deal than this, I'd think...but yet, the trade appeared to happen quickly and before any other concrete offers were fielded from other prospective clubs.

Now...as always, we don't know everything that happened behind the scenes, but the way the deal happened it just seems like it was rushed to ensure that we would start the second half without Escobar in the locker room. While that may prove to be a benefit by not having him around for the long term, I wonder just how much damage his attitude would have proved if we had waited another two weeks to field all offers and salvage any sort of value from this situation that we could.

What it still comes down to...is while we may be better off without Escobar, we could have still gotten more if we had been patient. We endured 2 1/2 seasons of his horse poo attitude...I just wonder what sacrificing 2 weeks of shopping him around has cost us is all.

That Brignac kid crushed 2 dingers against the Yanks yesterday. He looked like he could have some power. Haven't looked at his stats tho.

[-Dr. Brave-]

Esco was 3-4 with a GS and 5 RBI today. Yikes!

If he had done a little more of that as a Brave this year, he'd still be going to the postseason.

[luvdembravos]

Esco was 3-4 with a GS and 5 RBI today. Yikes!

Escobar had a nice opening weekend playing for Toronto and received some good press (but he played against the lowly Orioles).

Of course, not much was said about his bunt on Friday (his call - not the manager's) or the 9th inning fly out when he trotted half way to first base with his bat in hand. Good riddance. :rolleyes:

[Gman]

and here's my hope.

Is that we offered Escobar for Brignac and the Rays turned it down. Because if we turned it down...or demanded too much and scared the Rays off, I'll be a sad ugly puppy.

I'll say. I was watching the Rays take BP during spring training (not really knowing who was who) and the one guy whose stroke jumped off the page was Brignac. Pretty hard to stand out with so many good hitters on the rays team but he did. Very compact and potent. Not sure what the scouting reports are on his glovework at SS but, if it's in the same area code as Gonzalez I would have gone harder for Brignac. I think he's gonna be a solid Brian Roberts type bat for years to come.

[quick]

Esco was 3-4 with a GS and 5 RBI today. Yikes!

Do you think Esky was pulling a "Manny" to get out of here and to a place where flipping his bat, Esky style, would be tolerated? :thumbsdown:

[Gman]

Esco was 3-4 with a GS and 5 RBI today. Yikes!

Meanwhile since coming to Mississippi Tim Collins is averaging 22.5 Ks/9 without allowing a hit or walk and speedy Pastornicky has a .556 slug! :D

[CanadaBravesFan]

Watched Esco so far tonight and he doesnt even look like the same hitter. 2-3 with a 2-run HR through 6.

[Hobbes]

Watched Esco so far tonight and he doesnt even look like the same hitter. 2-3 with a 2-run HR through 6.
I imagine being traded served to wake him up a bit. The question is whether it will be a permanent wake-up, or will he drift back to his previous tendencies.

[Murphys#1Fan]

I like the trade for the short term. I believe the Braves organization was very tolerant of Yunel during the season but the straw that broke the camels back so to speak was that lob toss to Glaus that could have cost the team Glaus for the rest of the year.

Now if Yunel turns into the next Arod...then yes...we'll all be kicking ourselves but I think I read somewhere that Yunel's age suggests that he should just now be entering the prime of his career and the trend in his stats show just the opposite.

If the team stands up and aplauds Alex when he enters the club house...then that tells me Alex's arrival was well overdue. I side on the side of the players who obviously were thrilled to get him...and thus...I call it a good trade.

[bravos4evr]

I really think that we did the deal to not only dump Yunel, but to also gain some minor league depth so we could do another deal. Will it work out? I have no idea..... But the pieces we got sure sound a lot like pieces that add to the gravy of a major deal later.

[luvdembravos]

Now if Yunel turns into the next Arod...then yes...we'll all be kicking ourselves

Well, like Arod, Escobar has achieved d-bag status, so should we start kicking?;)

[quick]

Go to MLB.com and watch Escobar's running catch to his left where he then flips the ball with his glove, behind his back, to the 2d basemen to begin throwing the ball around-the-horn. http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9959997&c_id=tor

All Esky really wanted was to hot-dog it and show off and have his mates pat him on the back and tell him how cool he is. He seems to be getting that now, and he's hitting up a storm and playing his usual good defense, now with even more flash.

Atlanta just doesn't like the flashy player--never has--and I suspect Esky literally played his way out of town on purpose, like Manny did. He just wanted some love....I guess MLB is headed down the NBA road where soon flash will be 90% of the game....We'll have an All Star home run derby, a ball juggling derby, a cool glove flip derby, and a cool bat flip derby, with the girls from The Hills as judges....

[Agent-X-]

Go to MLB.com and watch Escobar's running catch to his left where he then flips the ball with his glove, behind his back, to the 2d basemen to begin throwing the ball around-the-horn. http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9959997&c_id=tor

All Esky really wanted was to hot-dog it and show off and have his mates pat him on the back and tell him how cool he is. He seems to be getting that now, and he's hitting up a storm and playing his usual good defense, now with even more flash.

Atlanta just doesn't like the flashy player--never has--and I suspect Esky literally played his way out of town on purpose, like Manny did. He just wanted some love....I guess MLB is headed down the NBA road where soon flash will be 90% of the game....We'll have an All Star home run derby, a ball juggling derby, a cool glove flip derby, and a cool bat flip derby, with the girls from The Hills as judges....

Got nothing good to say about him. I think that's all that ever needs to be said. :)

[alaskabravesfan]

We all know he's a talented shortstop. But he's a show off a$sclown, too. Good riddance. The Braves are a professional ball club.

[luvdembravos]

Got to admit that it was a nice play and he just may blossom into a star in a place like Toronto BUT I'm glad he's gone.

[Dreamscape]

I miss his dynamiciness.

/not a word? so?

[bravos4evr]

I'm actually starting to believe that he dogged it with da braves so he could be traded...

[Lauren T.]

I'm actually starting to believe that he dogged it with da braves so he could be traded...
Not a bad theory. :cool:

[Dreamscape]

14-12 since the trade.

I remain unconvinced the added value of team chemistry has helped in any way.

/no, this deal isn't the reason the Braves are 14-12 since the trade, but I don't see how it has done anything but hurt the Braves.

[quick]

14-12 since the trade.

I remain unconvinced the added value of team chemistry has helped in any way.

/no, this deal isn't the reason the Braves are 14-12 since the trade, but I don't see how it has done anything but hurt the Braves.


Of course, Esky contributed next-to-nothing on offense for the Braves before the trade. The Braves won in spite of him. If he had tried and played anywhere near his potential, you'd have a point. He didn't, and apparently gave no indication he was, while wearing a Braves uni this season.

[Hobbes]

He wouldn't be the first player to up his game after a trade to prove his old team wrong.

[Andy G.]

14-12 since the trade.

I remain unconvinced the added value of team chemistry has helped in any way.

/no, this deal isn't the reason the Braves are 14-12 since the trade, but I don't see how it has done anything but hurt the Braves.
You've focused way too much on "team chemistry".

Whether you or I agree with Wren's decision to trade him or not, people don't like to be around a##holes. Yunel Escobar is quite obviously an a##hole, at least in the opinion of his teammates with the Braves as well as coaches and some higher ups in the organization.

Why would you ever be shocked that a guy like that was shipped out? Why would you dwell on it? It's basic human nature to get that guy out of here, and when you consider the fact that many people do believe that "team chemistry" helps a team to win ballgames, the fact that Escobar was clearly not giving 100% in Atlanta (or at the very least was unhappy to be here and acted like it), and the fact that his production this year was non-existent, this trade was a no brainer.

I don't know why you won't let this go.

[Lauren T.]

I work in human resources. When we bring in someone for interviews, they are evaluated three ways: skills, cultural, and relationships. Often they have two or more skills interviews, and sometimes the cultural and relationships interviews are combined but are never skipped. If the person isn't a cultural fit? They're not considered, even if their skills set matches perfectly.

Baseball is a business; the same rules apply. If the existing employee can't maintain relationships and the skills aren't exactly matching what your "team" needs, you move on and find someone better suited for the position.

[Dreamscape]

Because the Braves traded a guy and got worse. The whole idea behind successful deals to better your ballclub. The Braves failed to do that. The no-brainer part of this trade was that it was a bad one. I guess, to me, when it comes to evaluating your general manager, I don't care how happy people are. I do care about wins and loses. Alex Gonzalez has not helped this club. Despite his offensive failure this year, Esco was still getting on base and playing superb defense.

This is not dwelling. These are the facts. Wren's trade did not help the club win games. Therefore, bad trade. Yunel Escobar might be a jerk and nobody likes him and everyone thinks Gonzalez is a swell guy, but this isn't an office that might run better with the jerk in the next cubicle gone. This is a baseball team and Wren's moves have yet to show any improvement (i.e. win more games). Maybe they will. I doubt it much, though. Though, obviously, the injuries to Chipper Jones and Kris Medlen can't be held against him...though...maybe they should. But I'll let him pass and think to myself the Orioles were asking for too much to consider moving Luke Scott.

And I don't think the Braves won in spite of Escobar, quick. He was part of the team concept that helped them jump out to a lead. Pitching, defense, and getting on base. Now, he wasn't doing the extra things that made him such a "dynamic" shortstop before this season...hitting for any pop or really hitting at all...but he certainly wasn't McLouthing it out there.

Added: oddly, Lauren and I added opposite views on the same thing without me knowing she was going to comment on it.

[alaskabravesfan]

Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I'd rather cheer for a losing team of players that I like than a winning team of players I perceive as jerks...

Disclaimer: I was a Braves fan in the early 80's when Murphy was awesome and the other 24 guys mostly sucked.

[bravos4evr]

Because the Braves traded a guy and got worse. The whole idea behind successful deals to better your ballclub. The Braves failed to do that. The no-brainer part of this trade was that it was a bad one. I guess, to me, when it comes to evaluating your general manager, I don't care how happy people are. I do care about wins and loses. Alex Gonzalez has not helped this club. Despite his offensive failure this year, Esco was still getting on base and playing superb defense.

This is not dwelling. These are the facts. Wren's trade did not help the club win games. Therefore, bad trade. Yunel Escobar might be a jerk and nobody likes him and everyone thinks Gonzalez is a swell guy, but this isn't an office that might run better with the jerk in the next cubicle gone. This is a baseball team and Wren's moves have yet to show any improvement (i.e. win more games). Maybe they will. I doubt it much, though. Though, obviously, the injuries to Chipper Jones and Kris Medlen can't be held against him...though...maybe they should. But I'll let him pass and think to myself the Orioles were asking for too much to consider moving Luke Scott.

And I don't think the Braves won in spite of Escobar, quick. He was part of the team concept that helped them jump out to a lead. Pitching, defense, and getting on base. Now, he wasn't doing the extra things that made him such a "dynamic" shortstop before this season...hitting for any pop or really hitting at all...but he certainly wasn't McLouthing it out there.

Added: oddly, Lauren and I added opposite views on the same thing without me knowing she was going to comment on it.



You have absolutely ZERO evidence to back up this claim at all. None.... Can you unequivocably say the Braves would have won more games with Escobar out there? Nope, ya can't... everything else is just rhetoric

[Dreamscape]

You have absolutely ZERO evidence to back up this claim at all. None.... Can you unequivocably say the Braves would have won more games with Escobar out there? Nope, ya can't... everything else is just rhetoric
My claim is that the trade has not help the Braves win ballgames. Since the deal, their winning percentage is about 40 points lower than it was before the trade. And that's with the so-called reinforcements of Ankiel and Farnsworth. Of course, it's a crude way of looking at things, but when they made the trade, the Braves had the best record in the NL. Since that time, the Giants, Cardinals, Phillies, Reds, Padres, and Astros have been better.

Regardless, it's whatever spin you probably came from the deal with. If you believed the Braves improved their ballclub for whatever reason in July, you probably don't think any differently now. But if you thought it was a bad deal and it continues to look like one, you can't help but wonder if things might be even a little better had the deal not occurred. And as the Braves lead has shrunk, that's what I wonder.

[quick]

My claim is that the trade has not help the Braves win ballgames. Since the deal, their winning percentage is about 40 points lower than it was before the trade. And that's with the so-called reinforcements of Ankiel and Farnsworth. Of course, it's a crude way of looking at things, but when they made the trade, the Braves had the best record in the NL. Since that time, the Giants, Cardinals, Phillies, Reds, Padres, and Astros have been better.

Regardless, it's whatever spin you probably came from the deal with. If you believed the Braves improved their ballclub for whatever reason in July, you probably don't think any differently now. But if you thought it was a bad deal and it continues to look like one, you can't help but wonder if things might be even a little better had the deal not occurred. And as the Braves lead has shrunk, that's what I wonder.

I understand your point, but before the trade, Esky was playing offense below replacement player level--batting low 200s, low OBP, no HRs, few RBIs. His defense was spotty. The winning perc was as much a function of Glaus' run as anything else--Esky was not a part of it. If Glaus were still being Super-Glaus, we'd not be having this discussion.

Plus, Heywood has not been as good since the thumb injury, Prado is out, Medlen is wounded, and now Chip is gone--all of this has contributed to the lower winning perc. Again I say if Esky showed any signs of offensive spark, he'd still be here, IMHO. He was tolerated until he quit playing offense. He did not play offense in an Atlanta uni this season.

[Hobbes]

My claim is that the trade has not help the Braves win ballgames. Since the deal, their winning percentage is about 40 points lower than it was before the trade. And that's with the so-called reinforcements of Ankiel and Farnsworth. Of course, it's a crude way of looking at things, but when they made the trade, the Braves had the best record in the NL. Since that time, the Giants, Cardinals, Phillies, Reds, Padres, and Astros have been better.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[Chris_Moderato]

That thanks is for making the board all smart-like.

[quick]

That thanks is for making the board all smart-like.

If you take one Ad Hoc and another Ad Hoc, what you do you get?

Added Hocs. :D

[Dreamscape]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Uh, uh, "post" - after, after hoc, "ergo" - therefore, "After hoc, therefore" something else hoc.

[Dreamscape]

His defense was spotty.
No...it really wasn't. People always want to remember this one play where his throw almost forced Glaus into an injury situation or not going after a popfly. Defense, more than anything in baseball, makes a bigger impression for the few bad plays that are made over the wealth of positive plays.

Without any doubt, his defense with the Braves was awesome. Using zone runs from baseball-reference because unlike fangraphs, they split between teams, Yunel was not on pace for the 22 runs above average (which led the NL at SS last year), he still had 5 runs above average. That still ranks fourth in the NL. His RF/9 still ranks third. Fangraphs actually believes he is better this year than he was last year, but I am not too sure how much of that is due to Toronto.

Yunel Escobar did two things very well this season with the Braves. Got on base and played superb defense. Sadly, nobody seemed to give him credit for the latter.

[sdp]

The West Wing!

[Hobbes]

The West Wing!
I thought for sure that Dream would remember that, being the big West Wing fan that he is.

[quick]

No...it really wasn't. People always want to remember this one play where his throw almost forced Glaus into an injury situation or not going after a popfly. Defense, more than anything in baseball, makes a bigger impression for the few bad plays that are made over the wealth of positive plays.

Without any doubt, his defense with the Braves was awesome. Using zone runs from baseball-reference because unlike fangraphs, they split between teams, Yunel was not on pace for the 22 runs above average (which led the NL at SS last year), he still had 5 runs above average. That still ranks fourth in the NL. His RF/9 still ranks third. Fangraphs actually believes he is better this year than he was last year, but I am not too sure how much of that is due to Toronto.

Yunel Escobar did two things very well this season with the Braves. Got on base and played superb defense. Sadly, nobody seemed to give him credit for the latter.

Escobar's Rtz in '08 was 11; in '09 was 23; in '10 is 6, 4 while in Toronto for a short time, but only 2 while in Atlanta for a longer time. Pretty big drop.

His Rtot in '08 was 9, in '09 was 22, and in '10 is 11, but 6 while in Toronto and only 5 while in Atl.

Clearly, he is fielding much better in Toronto, and his 2010 is a big drop from '09.

Remember my statement--if he were putting up close to his 09 offensive numbers, he'd still be here, even with his fielding drop-off. He had little margin for error because he was a jerk. His offensive numbers stank. Remember, when we traded, Esky had 0 homers, 19 RBIs, a 238/334/284; Gonz had 17 homers and 50 RBIs, and a 258/303/480. We had several high OBP guys--we needed power and run production. Esky gave us neither and if he'd been a better guy with a better attitude, he'd have been given more time.

I think he was playing his way out of town, personally, and I suspect he'd hinted as much to teammates; Wren could no more keep such a guy on this team than Boston could keep Manny R. Also, Gonz doesn't pout....

[Wahoo]

No...it really wasn't. People always want to remember this one play where his throw almost forced Glaus into an injury situation or not going after a popfly. Defense, more than anything in baseball, makes a bigger impression for the few bad plays that are made over the wealth of positive plays.

Without any doubt, his defense with the Braves was awesome. Using zone runs from baseball-reference because unlike fangraphs, they split between teams, Yunel was not on pace for the 22 runs above average (which led the NL at SS last year), he still had 5 runs above average. That still ranks fourth in the NL. His RF/9 still ranks third. Fangraphs actually believes he is better this year than he was last year, but I am not too sure how much of that is due to Toronto.

Yunel Escobar did two things very well this season with the Braves. Got on base and played superb defense. Sadly, nobody seemed to give him credit for the latter.

No offense, Dream, but I think you're reaching on this one. I'll take your word for it on defense, but I'd hardly call getting on base at a .334 clip, as saying he did his job of getting on base very well. While is IsoOBP is impressive, and does suggest he had good plate discipline, his total times reaching base per plate attempt just is not so impressive and not indicative of someone "doing very well." If so, by that logic, I guess Juan Pierre has always done his job very well too.

[luvdembravos]

I don't care if Escobar was a .330 hitter with a .400 OBP.

He's a douche and I'm glad he's gone.

[Dreamscape]

Well, I think his IsoOBP combined with his BABIP being unreasonably low was a sign of things to come so that's why I used those words, though I'll admit I should have pointed out that he was still getting on base despite his AVG sucking, showing solid on-base skills.

Quick, we still have two months on those defensive stats so I wouldn't claim it was a solid drop off. Remember, that drop off has him 4th in zone runs in the NL despite spending a month elsewhere. Maybe he was trying to play himself out. Or maybe he was pressing and nobody tried to take him under his wing and help him work through it.

And really...I think the whole Escobar was a jerk thing is so overdone. The guy wasn't beating his wife, hasn't tested positive for PED's (i.e. cheating the game), and had never really been in trouble outside of a fight in Cincy. Maybe he didn't make everyone feel better, crack jokes, hang out with everyone, but how was he such a jerk? I remember hearing he was, but not why he was. It just seems that's the go-to here. "He was a jerk and he wasn't hitting so the Braves traded him." Okay. But they were winning with that jerk. And with McLouth. And Jurrjens on the mend, Chipper providing next to nothing, McCann's slow start, Glaus's uselessness outside of a month or so, and a host of stuff. Maybe they were winning in spite of that or maybe, the formula just worked. Don't know. All I do know is I have very little confidence in this team right now. But I'll let it go.

/for now

[luvdembravos]

And really...I think the whole Escobar was a jerk thing is so overdone. The guy wasn't beating his wife, hasn't tested positive for PED's (i.e. cheating the game), and had never really been in trouble outside of a fight in Cincy. Maybe he didn't make everyone feel better, crack jokes, hang out with everyone, but how was he such a jerk?

When a team is so happy to see a teammate go that they give the new guy a standing O when he enters the clubhouse, that speaks volumes. Jerk!

[wordslayer©]

Since I didn't like the trade, but then again, I rarely ever like a trade, but that's another story.......

Anyhow, here is why I think most people defend this horrible trade. It's because we have, every one of us, worked with a dick. And because we all know how it feels to work with a dick, we can easily justify in our minds why they should get rid of a dick. But.........

That doesn't mean you weaken your team to get rid of a dick. Rationalize it however you need to in your mind, but our team was weakened by that trade.

Throughout history teams have had wife beaters, bigots, racists, sex addicts, alcoholics, drug addicts, molesters....my gawd....teams have had every kind of dysfunctional jerks on them imaginable. But the thing is.....bad teams lose with dicks and good teams win with dicks. Those are the facts.

It's like Andy said in one of his other posts, most of the people that hate this trade are probably more in the sabermetric crowd. I don't even believe in the chemistry thing. Happy teams lose and angry teams win. The thing that matters is if your team is good or not. Chemistry doesn't create good teams. I never see Bringham Young winning anything.

It's like BFH said, IF the chemistry was that bad, then they would have unloaded him in the winter. I do not understand trading one of the top middle infielders in baseball when your team is playing its best in the middle of the season. Makes no sense to me at all.

And finally, I don't believe we are worse now because Escobar isn't here, just as I don't believe were good because he was here. Correlation does not imply causation. However, it's a lousy trade. It was a lousy trade because we got a lousy return.

And with all that being said, no one wants to work with a dick, but we all have. These athletes make 10,000,000 dollars a year, and when they whine like a bunch of high school girls because they don't like someone, it just sounds petty.

Francoeur was a great guy. Escobar was a dick. I'll take the dick every time.

[Chris_Moderato]

I'll take the dick every time.

I bet.

[wordslayer©]

I bet.

it's what my repressed amish upbringing has done to me. I've never felt more Pennsylvania Dutch than I do right now.

[Hobbes]

And really...I think the whole Escobar was a jerk thing is so overdone. The guy wasn't beating his wife, hasn't tested positive for PED's (i.e. cheating the game), and had never really been in trouble outside of a fight in Cincy. Maybe he didn't make everyone feel better, crack jokes, hang out with everyone, but how was he such a jerk? I remember hearing he was, but not why he was.
Perhaps Bobby has fostered a mentality amongst the team that the players won't air the dirty laundry in public. Who knows what went on behind the clubhouse doors.

I'll take the dick every time.
I bet.

:laugh:

[bravos4evr]

I think the people who are posting against it havn't played any sort of high level sports on a team. I would rather lose with a guy who plays hard and does his best on and off the field than win with a sorry good for nothing arrogant jackoff. Plkus, something serious had to have happened for it to have come to this point. It's not like he was a swell guy and became a jerk. He was obviously one for his entire tenure and they put up with it until Bobby and the team had had enough of it.

Sure staying married to your wife because your joint earning power keeps you in CL series Mercedes even though you hate her guts may be tolerable for awhile, but when you constantly wake up polishing a .44 magnum, maybe it's time to hire a lawyer....

[The Rap]

No offense to anyone but this thread is alot of fun to read although what a waste of time. Who care what the Braves record was right before and after the trade was made. It isn't like this was the only determining factor but consider that the Braves have been playing over their heads for a good part of the year. We have had many configurations but currently had Alex Gonzales batting 3rd. Ankiel makes hitting lefties a special art reminding us of many who can't hit the opposing wing. Farnsworth who showed so much courage the first time around is back. Joy to the world. Melky Cabrera never played this well in his life and Omar Infante is an all-star. Our statue at first base started like the stone edifice he was and then got hot and wowed us all but lo and behold we are back to that Stone Age again. But who knows. I am friendly with Tim Dierker, founder and owner of MLBTradeRumors and he wrote up something recently extolling the Braves. I wrote to him saying aren't you over doing that a bit? He wrote back to me saying they may not have a big star offensively but have the best 1-9 lineup in the game. All I thought when I read that was I would like to have some of what he is smoking.

[Andy G.]

You guys are missing the point entirely. He's not gone because he's a dick. He's not gone because the players didn't get along with him. He's gone because he wanted to be gone. I'm not willing to say that Escobar's struggles were some random happenstance that happen to come at the right time to convince Wren to ship him out.

If Wren felt that Escobar was a lock to rebound to his career averages, he would not have traded him. He knows that if Escobar is producing, the players and coaches would be willing to put up with him. He's also not so ignorant that he does not know that players who have a track record of success, even if they play three months of miserable baseball, are almost always going to continue their success through their prime years. He said this while Escobar and McLouth were playing so poorly in the first half.

Gonzalez is only a downgrade if you believe Escobar was going to start producing again with the Braves. The organization had to believe that Escobar was not giving his best effort on the field. All this talk about the end result being worth it, and how winning is everything, yada yada yada... You guys haven't even considered that Escobar might actually have been sucking because he hated playing in Atlanta. We've seen him demonstrate childish behavior. He gave the score keeper the bird when he was charged with an unwarranted error. Why is it so hard to believe that he forced his way out of Atlanta? Does anybody here doubt that he hated playing for Bobby Cox? It was obvious through his body language when he was here, and it's more obvious now if you watch how he's carrying himself in Toronto.

This guy wanted to play somewhere that would allow him to act like the diva he is. To do that, he acted like a b!tch and forced the Braves to move him. All you guys keep saying is that he was a dick, and the Braves didn't want a dick in the club house. It's not about the players not getting along with him. It was about Yunel Escobar acting like he didn't want to be here, then posting a .618 OPS in the first 75 games of the season. He had to go.

[bravos4evr]

I mentioned that before. I really think he was dogging it to get traded and the team knew it... Guess I shoulda been a little clearer in my most recent post.... But yeah, I think he was not giving his best and I don't want to play with someone who doesn't give their best.. eff him, I'm glad he's gone.

[Chris_Moderato]

Searching for simplistic response that no one could possibly argue with...

Searching...searching...ding!

Ahem...

"Yeah, well, you nay-sayers can suck it when the Braves raise the World Series trophy in November."

[wordslayer©]

This guy wanted to play somewhere that would allow him to act like the diva he is. To do that, he acted like a b!tch and forced the Braves to move him. All you guys keep saying is that he was a dick, and the Braves didn't want a dick in the club house. It's not about the players not getting along with him. It was about Yunel Escobar acting like he didn't want to be here, then posting a .618 OPS in the first 75 games of the season. He had to go.

I think this could be true if he were sucking on the defensive side of his game. I think that if he were trying to play himself off the team he would have also sit out some games with some types of vague injuries. I just can't see him only doing it on the offensive side of the field.

I believe he struggled offensively and that did give them the excuse to trade him. I have no doubt that he will bounce back.

IF I WERE GUESSING, I think what the real issue was is that his flashy, self serving style of attention seeking play is what Bobby hated about him. I would guess that Bobby called him out on it and then Escobar got defensive and the relationship just got worse. As for calling him a dick, I think the braves organization has played that angle up as much as anyone has.

We could really use him the second half of this year. I think he would have bounced back. No one knows the real reason he is gone, but if they were going to trade him, I wish they would have done it after this season.

[Lauren T.]

No offense to anyone but this thread is alot of fun to read although what a waste of time.
You could say that about most of this board. :thumbsup:

[Hobbes]

You could say that about most of the internet. :thumbsup:
Fixed. ;)