Hanson????

[quick]

Well, what is wrong with Tommy?

In the CWS game, it appeared Sox hitters were hanging over the plate, taking away half of the strike zone. Yesterday it didn't look the same to me.

My take was his slider is starting almost off the plate, finishing way off the the plate, and therefore is not teasing anyone into swinging (TV commentators said as much). He rarely throws his curve. Therefore, batters can "sit" on his fastball, which is a fine pitch but it doesn't seem to have much late movement.

Some of this is characteristic of someone who is not trusting his stuff. If you have great slider, you can start it over the middle of the plate and break it to the black and down on righties--all but unhittable and still a called strike, or very close--too close to take. Same pitch can go under a lefties hands. You don't want the pitch to hang and spin belt-high, but if you keep it down, you should be fine, especially when you have a good slider like Tommy's.

And Tommy's curve does get some called strikes, but he won't use it. I saw him use it twice yesterday.

Well, what do you think? Are these last two starts just an aberration or is there more to it? Can he do more to "jazz up" his fastball?

[bravos4evr]

http://www.boston.com/ae/sidekick/blog/hanson.jpg


toooo much MMMM Bop maybe ? :-)

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Is that you and your boys, Nick? Just kidding, just kidding....
The way Hanson is struggling of late, he may be the odd man out. KK pitched really well last time out and Medlen has been good routinely. Perhaps some time in the pen will help Hanson figure it out...

[Andy G.]

I wouldn't even consider it, Freddy. It's not like he's consistently bad. He's given up two earned runs or less in eleven of his sixteen starts. He's had three starts in which he pitched nine innings and given up twenty two earned runs. His numbers are skewed by the fact that his bad starts have been really, really bad. There's no need for him to work things out in the bullpen. No need at all.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

No need? Have you seen the dude pitch recently? Looks like he's pitching with a borrowed arm! The stats I'm most interested in are over those last two terrifically bad outings. Could be nothing more than the ol' sophomore jinx, but it's alarming to me. I think he looks like he's lost confidence in his stuff. It could be that he's tipping his pitches because too many times hitters looked like they were sitting on pitches and then crushing them. Maybe just missing a start would get him back on track. I don't want to see him get to the point of being tentative.

[Andy G.]

You really think that because he had two bad starts in a row, there must be something wrong with him? He's twenty three, and this is his first full season. There's no need cause for alarm right now. He's still a beast.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I think what I saw must've been some bestiality then! Two starts as bad as those should indicate a problem. I'm not talking hammerin' the panic button but using some caution and giving the guy a chance to step back, look at what he was doing and try and figure out what went wrong. He seems to be throwing a lot of flat pitches and is wild in the strike zone. A missed start may be all he needs. I do trust the team to do what's best for him. They don't dick around with studs like that.

[Hobbes]

You generally don't put a starter in the pen to fix their problems.

[quick]

Hey guys...I'm not going to try and interject into the conversation much, but I'm looking at the pitch types from the last two games...and I kind of notice a pattern.

Whenever Hanson has gotten into trouble the last two times out....he's gone to his entire arsenal to try and get through it. It's a little different than what I proposed earlier...but it could also be a bad thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always been under the assumption that Hanson's bread and butter are the slider and his fastball. His curve and change are also nice pitches...but if there are two pitches that define why Hanson can be so dynamic, it's a stellar fastball and a dominant slider.

I don't know. Maybe they teach guys to go to their 3rd and 4th pitches in tight spots higher up in college, minors and majors...but I've always gone to my bread and butter to get the outs I need in a tight spot. Sure...I could've gotten outs with my circle change and my cutter...but I got far fewer outs with those pitches in big spots than I did my curve.

Maybe it's completely the opposite? Maybe Hanson relies so heavily on his fastball and slider early in games that by the time he gets to the 4th inning, the 2nd or 3rd time through the order, he has no choice by to go to his weaker pitches for outs and he's simply not getting lucky or not executing well.

It doesn't mean he's not confident in his stuff....perhaps he's overconfident in one light to go to his other stuff in big spots. Perhaps he's not confident in his other pitches to not use them earlier? If so...it may be with good reason. He might even just be frustrated, like I said, with struggling for the first time in what is probably several years at least.

Again...correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like he's gotten shelled his last two times out. From what I recall...the Tigers had some 16 singles in the game. Hanson got dinked and dunked all day. Of the 13 hits he allowed against the ChiSox...only 2 were for extras. Again...dinked and dunked for the most part. I'll go out on a limb to say no one has ever been able to string hits together like that on him (even if they are only singles) and I would bet the kid is frustrated with it.

I don't think he needs a bullpen stint to correct his issues...McDowell just needs to figure out whether Hanson's fallen in love with his primary two pitches or if he is too confident in his secondary stuff. Either way...Hanson needs a little more focus on pitching. From the way his pitch sequences read...it looks like he's just throwing lately.

Of course, the catcher is calling the game; I don't see Hanson shaking off the catcher, so is it McCann's problem? I don't know, but possbily Mac's gotten into a certain comfort zone with certain of Hanson's pitches.

Also, I do believe the slider is just being started too far out of the zone. He needs to start it down the middle, looking fat and pretty, and let his fine stuff bend it down and to the left--trust it. He may be being, functionally, a one-pitch fastball pitcher: his slider prompts no one to swing; his curve he rarely throws; and even his change isn't getting much use and he seems to leave it too far down to really tease hitters.

I was ready to go with Hudson and Hanson for two games each in a 5 game series--now, I am not so sure about Hanson.

[RiknTN]

Also, I do believe the slider is just being started too far out of the zone. He needs to start it down the middle, looking fat and pretty, and let his fine stuff bend it down and to the left--trust it. He may be being, functionally, a one-pitch fastball pitcher: his slider prompts no one to swing; his curve he rarely throws; and even his change isn't getting much use and he seems to leave it too far down to really tease hitters.

BINGO !!

Needs to trust his stuff better......they sit on his fastball lately

[warefreak]

All I know is I'm concerned. We need Tommy to be Tommy to stay in it this year. He might need to skip a start, look at some film... SOMETHING, but it looks like the opposition as got him figured out. It's time to make some adjustments himself.

[wordslayer©]

*not a stats inspired post*

It never seems like good pitchers really have problems with their mechanics.

Can bad pitchers have good mechanics? Wonder why good mechanics won't make a bad pitcher good? Wonder why horrible mechanics don't make good pitchers bad?

I think that pitchers just sometimes suck----even good pitchers. I bet Steve Carlton or Tom Seaver have strung together some pretty $hitty games.

I really think that young, good pitchers can sometimes suck.

If a great pitcher is sucking for any length of time then it's probably due to his fighting through an injury or something.

I know that players themselves believe that they are good OR bad because of their mechanics, or because of the way they stand, their arm angle, or any number of things, but if the truth is probably known, it's probably just a confidence issue, or just the natural ebbing and flowing of good game/bad game occurrences. Coping mechanisms in the fragile ego of the athlete are pretty powerful, I would think.

[bravos4evr]

Well true BFH but when i was closing games my junior year (my best year prior to my injury) I gave up 3 HR's all year, in 3 straight games!!! (in fact I only gave up 8 in three years 4 my first year , 1 the second and those 3) I have no idea why my fastball wasn't moving... but it was just sitting there dead flat for those three games.... It could just be a string of bad luck. Heck I remember Maddux having a few bad games in a row before.

[Andy G.]

It's like a few guys have said. He had a few couple of bad games. It is an overreaction to say that anything is wrong with him. Three starts ago he pitched against Tampa Bay and threw seven innings with no runs, three hits and one walk. I just can't believe that we're talking about something being wrong with him, other than the fact that he's had a few games this year where he's pitched very poorly. It's not a consistent thing at all. He's been great the majority of his starts. This is all a little confusing, I must say.

[IkeWagner]

I watched his whole start against the Sox, and a thought that popped into my head was that he might be tipping his pitches. Probably not be the most likely explanation, but when a pitcher with great stuff has hitters all over him like that (even if location and pitch selection are not the greatest), one begins to wonder whether the opposing team has caught onto something.

[bravos4evr]

Hmmm, maybe they should let Chipper watch some film on him and see if he catches anything.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

It reads like you guys are recounting many of the things I suggested. I have suggested the possibility of Hanson tipping his pitches, a loss of command and possibly even a sophomore jinx. I still believe missing a turn wouldn't hurt. Perhaps I should've stated it that way from the start rather than just suggesting he go to the pen. This is probably a little bit of all this plus it's possible he has a tired arm. He's pitched a good bit and his stuff wasn't quite there in his last two starts. Command? Confidence? Crappy luck? There's evidence each can be at fault. I do agree this subject is moot. Cox probably doesn't know that Hanson's been horsebleep out there for a coupla starts. Cox would tell you he pitched great and that all the hits were flukes, etc. I would disagree simply because Hanson, when he's "on" isn't letting enough guys get the bat on the ball enough to allow all those "cheap" hits. To paraphrase Skip Caray, "They all look like line drives in the newspaper." Here's hoping next time out Hanson's back to ace level and we never revisit this type of thing again.

[-Dr. Brave-]

I watched his whole start against the Sox, and a thought that popped into my head was that he might be tipping his pitches. Probably not be the most likely explanation, but when a pitcher with great stuff has hitters all over him like that (even if location and pitch selection are not the greatest), one begins to wonder whether the opposing team has caught onto something.

I seem to recall hearing the announcers say that Hanson looked at video after his first bad start. Obviously it didn't help.

[Dreamscape]

I do agree this subject is moot. Cox probably doesn't know that Hanson's been horsebleep out there for a coupla starts. Cox would tell you he pitched great and that all the hits were flukes, etc. I would disagree simply because Hanson, when he's "on" isn't letting enough guys get the bat on the ball enough to allow all those "cheap" hits.
Freddy, do you expect Cox to say Hanson has been "horsebleep" out there for two starts after looking pretty good the previous four or five starts? Of course, he's going to support Hanson in public. I don't think he hasn't realized Hanson has struggled in his past couple of starts, but he also has to realize that everything seems to indicate that this won't be a longterm problem.

His K's and walks are right in line with last season. The only real outlier is the hits and a look at his BABIP gives me enough to believe there isn't all that much wrong with Hanson. I think it was pretty amazing he got to 37 starts before two really bad starts back-to-back, especially because he's a flyball pitcher. I don't have much worry that he will be back to his usual thing pretty soon.

For funnsies...Greg Maddux gave up five or more runs in four of five games July 18-August 16, 1987, or career games 26-30. Tom Glavine gave up six or more runs in three of his first seven starts. In his fourth, fifth, and sixth starts, John Smoltz failed to get out of the third inning each time. They turned out okay. To be fair, Glavine and Smoltz had plenty of time on bad ballclubs to work through their troubles.

I know in today's world of the internet and over-analyzing what every game means, we sometimes lose grip of the big picture. But until Hanson's struggles reach an unacceptable level of a month or so, I'm just not going to be too concerned with a couple of stinkers, especially when he shut down the AL's fourth-best offense before showing himself to be simply mortal.

[quick]

Freddy, do you expect Cox to say Hanson has been "horsebleep" out there for two starts after looking pretty good the previous four or five starts? Of course, he's going to support Hanson in public.


Bobby almost never criticizes his players in public. That is one reason he is beloved. You can be sure Hanson caught it in private IF Bobby thought Hanson deserved it--but, if as we all suspect Hanson is working hard with the coaches to right the ship, Bobby likely is just giving him encouragement and providing insight if he can.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Thanks for the your penetrating glimpses of the obvious, guys. It isn't a matter of Cox not saying Hanson was horsebleep, it's a matter of Cox not even knowing Hanson was horsebleep. Most everyone gets the idea of propping up guys when they struggle, but Cox doesn't even seem aware sometimes that guys have really been bad for a bit. I'm pretty sure we all know the Braves aren't about to tee off on their future face of the franchise. All I suggested was giving the guy some time off to collect himself and see if they can figure out what's been causing his struggles.

[Andy G.]

Thanks for the your penetrating glimpses of the obvious, guys. It isn't a matter of Cox not saying Hanson was horsebleep, it's a matter of Cox not even knowing Hanson was horsebleep. Most everyone gets the idea of propping up guys when they struggle, but Cox doesn't even seem aware sometimes that guys have really been bad for a bit. I'm pretty sure we all know the Braves aren't about to tee off on their future face of the franchise. All I suggested was giving the guy some time off to collect himself and see if they can figure out what's been causing his struggles.
Dude, the bottom line is you're overreacting to a couple of bad starts from a twenty-three year old pitcher. There's no story here. There's nothing that needs to be done to help him 'get through this'. The only thing that's "horsebleep" is your insistence that Hanson has a problem that needs fixing.

This reminds me of the Troy Glaus thread, except this is even more irrational than when you all said Troy was "done".

[Dreamscape]

Thanks for the your penetrating glimpses of the obvious, guys. It isn't a matter of Cox not saying Hanson was horsebleep, it's a matter of Cox not even knowing Hanson was horsebleep.
And you know that how? I personally don't have any intimate conversations on how players are doing with Bobby Cox to counteract this argument. Obviously, if I could get Bobby to tell me that Hanson has pitched like "horsebleep" (as you said) and won't do it in public as to avoid dumping on his player in public, I would need to have a face-to-face relationship with Bobby for him to, again, tell me the evidence that goes contrary to your belief, theory, random stab in the dark.

I really need to facebook Bobby now.

[quick]

And you know that how? I personally don't have any intimate conversations on how players are doing with Bobby Cox to counteract this argument. Obviously, if I could get Bobby to tell me that Hanson has pitched like "horsebleep" (as you said) and won't do it in public as to avoid dumping on his player in public, I would need to have a face-to-face relationship with Bobby for him to, again, tell me the evidence that goes contrary to your belief, theory, random stab in the dark.

I really need to facebook Bobby now.

Well said. I don't think those of us in the general public ever know what Bobby really thinks about one of his players, as he is always supportive--in public.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Well said. I don't think those of us in the general public ever know what Bobby really thinks about one of his players, as he is always supportive--in public.

Well said. There's no way you can listen to Cox speak about his players and get any indication. Dude is always on top of everything concerning his guys.:no:

[Dreamscape]

Hrm. Hanson didn't look too horsebleep today.

[luvdembravos]

There's nothing wrong with Hanson...now Lowe, that's a diffeent story.

[quick]

Hanson and Lowe both pitched well. Hanson was putting that slider in the zone and breaking it out, and the fastball had more late tail on it. Lowe matched up well with Haladay, but the combo of Doc and a weaker offensive lineup for us hurt Lowe's chances. Indeed, the odds of that Dodd kid hitting a homer in BP, much less in the game, were pretty low--bad luck for Derek.

[Devil Wears Prado]

Lowe just isn't tricking anybody anymore after the second-third go around in the lineup. His stuff is too easy to see for major leaguers now I think.

I heard the Brewers commentators saying that Lowe has done a good job mixing his curveball (not sure if they meant his slider) and his changeup the past few outings. If that's the case, then I don't think he's getting beat up after the second or third go around because of his lack of pitches.

[luvdembravos]

Lowe has turned into a pretty decent 5th starter but unfortunately that wasn't the reason he was brought to Atlanta.

[quick]

Hanson got lit up pretty good his last start. It seems sometimes his fastball has almost no late movement, and he still sometimes starts his slider to right handers so far outside that it isn't a good tease.

He really must address these two issues--late movement on his FB (maybe he needs to make a grip adjustment) and starting that slider in the middle and letting his nice break take it down and away against righties.