Jo-Jo as a LOOGY?

[alaskabravesfan]

Reyes isn't a horrible pitcher, but the Braves certainly haven't found a way to utilize him effectively. Maybe it's time for a change of pace for his perennial AAAA self, and perhaps that change should be the bullpen.

Jo-Jo is great against lefties and serving as a LOOGY will allow him to give maximum effort on every pitch (as opposed to starting and saving something for later.) He has a great change-up, a good curve (when he doesn't leave it up too high in the strike zone) and his sinking fastball will be better when he is throwing fresh and as hard as he can on every pitch.

I think it's worth a try. We wouldn't get much for him in trade, he really hasn't been consistent enough to start...let's stick him in the bullpen and see how he does...

What do you all think?

Full Disclosure: This discussion is going on fast and fierce over at Talking Chop, but I don't post there. So I thought I'd bring the idea up on this (my favorite Braves BB.)

[LeeTro]

Looking at his MLB and MiLB splits, that seems like an avenue that he could succeed in. The BB rate is a little high (4.38/9 minors, 3.5/9 MLB), but that should go down in a relief role. Also, his HR rate against LH in the majors is a bit high (1.03/9), but his minor league HR rate is really good (0.35/9). Striking out a guy an inning should be a requirement for the role, so Jo-Jo is good there (8.85 at each level). As long as he could get used to being in the bullpen, he would be an acceptable 2nd lefty with O'Flaherty.

[BigWorm]

I missed the whole inside joke for LOOGY. I know it's a left handed specialist but is it an acronym? do tell.

[KB 34]

He can be a t-shirt throw specialist for all I care, just keep him in AAA until he's ready for the major leagues again. There definitely is a case for making him a reliever. Starting hasn't worked too well for the past couple years.

[Andy G.]

I think it's a great idea. Are we certain that the Braves aren't trying to transition him into a bullpen role right now? It would give Michael Dunn competition for his spot if Bobby does decide that he wants two non-closer lefties. Reyes seems like he could do really well as a LOOGY, as you guys have pointed out.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if Wagner doesn't get used in the eighth a few times in close games if Ryan Howard or someone like that is coming to the plate. Bobby probably won't be as comfortable with Saito or Moylan in the ninth as he was with either Gonzo or Soriano, but I could see him letting one of those guys grab a save if the situation called for it.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Whatever became of Half-Game James? I bring him up because he's the last bigger-than-life guy everybody blew up on the boards before he flopped miserably. Some of the hero worship being shovelled Heyward's way reminded me of him. Well, that and his link to Yo-Yo as another can't miss who did.

[Hobbes]

Whatever became of Half-Game James? I bring him up because he's the last bigger-than-life guy everybody blew up on the boards before he flopped miserably. Some of the hero worship being shovelled Heyward's way reminded me of him. Well, that and his link to Yo-Yo as another can't miss who did.
The vast majority of the "hype" around Chuck James was tongue-in-cheek, mainly due to all the Chuck Norris jokes people latched onto. I don't think many folks had anywhere near the expectations of James as they did for players such as Hanson and Heyward.

[Lauren T.]

Seriously, last I heard Chuck James was going to be signed by the Nationals for the 2010 season, but he's not listed on the MLB website (on the active roster, 40-man, or list of non-roster invitees).

[BigWorm]

Most of the Chuck James stuff was jokes. It was fueled by the popularity of Chuck Norris and Rick James. I don't think anyone thought the window installer was the real deal.

[LeeTro]

I think Chuck was projected by most as a 3 or 4 starter. He had a minor league FIP of 2.68, so there was a fair amount of hope for him, with a few Glavine comparisons. He developed a severe HR problem in the majors, and was actually quite lucky his 2 full seasons up top.

[jamminHANES]

James could have been effective if he ever had a third pitch. His fastball/changeup combination was pretty solid and he threw plenty of strikes, just had no third pitch. Hitters sat on one of the pitches and had success after his rookie season when his scouting report came out.

As for Jo Jo, I just do not trust him in any role right now. Same thing with Acosta, they look great in AAA and ST every season and have flashes at the major league level and then explode. I don't know if it is mental or physical problems with the two of them, but I would be more comfortable with lower upside but more consistent bullpen arms.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I think it's easy to label it as tongue-in-cheek or as jokes now, but it didn't read like jokes back when it was the hot thread. It's a lot easier to disavow any suggestions of building up a bust when he was more or less built up here. Nobody piled on James like they did media darling Francouer. It doesn't matter, it's just curious.
I still think part of the reasons some of the guys didn't pan out, like Horacio or Jung Bong is because of a lack of specialized coaching for young lefties. Most every lefty I've known or thrown with has a natural breaking ball. In this age of specialization, why haven't the Braves or any other team I'm aware of created a lefty-specialist instructing/developmental system? Seems like a shrewd, ahead-of-the-pack move, to me.

[Dreamscape]

Seemed like tongue-in-cheek from the get-go to me...

I think the reason these lefties flame out is that they simply don't have much stuff. They may stick around as a LOOGY or a below-average swingman, but HoRam, Bong, and James lacked stuff. James had the best chance of the group to be something, but everything he threw was pretty straight. You simply can't last as a starter like that.

[BigWorm]

Ok Freddy. You were the only one who saw through Chuck James. Is that what you want to hear? There you go.
It's ridiculous to come on this website and write posts with a holier than thou attitude. Especially considering there are so many intelligent members here. Perhaps you should try another board where they would worship your omniscient persona. You are nervous that we're putting the cart before the horse with Jason Heyward? Ok I can understand that opinion and it's valid. However, I don't think anyone has inducted him into the Braves HOF just yet. Some of us (myself included) are just really excited about the POSSIBILITIES with this kid, it's something we haven't seen here in a long time. Think about it. When was the last time the Braves had a five tool big boppin OUTFIELD PROSPECT with this kind of potential? I don't think it's happened in my 22 years of following the Braves. And no, I don't count Francoeur because he never displayed this type of raw power at the plate. At best Francoeur projected as a gap hitter with some power mixed in. I'm just a little disturbed by the attitude you reflect in your posts. You are no better or smarter than anyone else.

[Agent-X-]

Ok Freddy. You were the only one who saw through Chuck James. Is that what you want to hear? There you go.
It's ridiculous to come on this website and write posts with a holier than thou attitude. Especially considering there are so many intelligent members here. Perhaps you should try another board where they would worship your omniscient persona. You are nervous that we're putting the cart before the horse with Jason Heyward? Ok I can understand that opinion and it's valid. However, I don't think anyone has inducted him into the Braves HOF just yet. Some of us (myself included) are just really excited about the POSSIBILITIES with this kid, it's something we haven't seen here in a long time. Think about it. When was the last time the Braves had a five tool big boppin OUTFIELD PROSPECT with this kind of potential? I don't think it's happened in my 22 years of following the Braves. And no, I don't count Francoeur because he never displayed this type of raw power at the plate. At best Francoeur projected as a gap hitter with some power mixed in. I'm just a little disturbed by the attitude you reflect in your posts. You are no better or smarter than anyone else.

You're right except that the last time this happened was when Andruw Jones came up... the difference, of course, is that Heyward has all that power AND is a pure hitter... plain and simple. The last time baseball had a guy like this come up with as much polish was probably Albert Pujols.

So there is a darn good reason to be excited. This type of hitter comes along about once or twice a decade, if at all. He's a special case. Just look at Chipper Jones and think about how rare it is to have someone with as much polish and skill come along.

[The Rap]

BFH, "(and in Horacio's case, by an idiot of a GM who is no longer a GM...which is telling enough).


OMG, try to be a little appreciative brother.

[bravos4evr]

The Mariners GM right? What was his name again?

[Hobbes]

The Mariners GM right? What was his name again?
Bill Bavasi.

[The Rap]

BFH, but you are pickijng one thing and basing your judgment on that? Do you think JS would have done that without Bobby approving it?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Ok Freddy. You were the only one who saw through Chuck James. Is that what you want to hear? There you go.
It's ridiculous to come on this website and write posts with a holier than thou attitude. Especially considering there are so many intelligent members here. Perhaps you should try another board where they would worship your omniscient persona. You are nervous that we're putting the cart before the horse with Jason Heyward? Ok I can understand that opinion and it's valid. However, I don't think anyone has inducted him into the Braves HOF just yet. Some of us (myself included) are just really excited about the POSSIBILITIES with this kid, it's something we haven't seen here in a long time. Think about it. When was the last time the Braves had a five tool big boppin OUTFIELD PROSPECT with this kind of potential? I don't think it's happened in my 22 years of following the Braves. And no, I don't count Francoeur because he never displayed this type of raw power at the plate. At best Francoeur projected as a gap hitter with some power mixed in. I'm just a little disturbed by the attitude you reflect in your posts. You are no better or smarter than anyone else.

Gee Worm, kinda touchy, aren't you? I raised a point and you blow up over it. At no time did I claim to be the only one (or one period) who saw through James. I just find it curious that he drifted away rather quietly compared to the daily bashing Francoeur got. What exactly is holier-than-thou about that? I raised that as a leadoff to my idea of the huge buildup Heyward is getting. Why exactly does that send you off into a tantrum? Amongst all these intelligent fans, why shouldn't I be allowed to voice an opinion or pose a question?
I'm glad you at least recognized my point and how generous of you to deem it valid. That's so special! Apparently, we're here for different reasons. I have been a member for quite a long time and the only reason is that I have enjoyed sharing thoughts and opinions about the Braves primarily, and other things that are brought up. I suppose you are here to be adored or worshipped. I don't need the reinforcement. If that had been a goal, or even an interest, I would've bolted years ago.
Why don't you just stick to your own business and I'll continue sticking to mine. Surely there is room for more than just your view...

[BigWorm]

I could've swore I just heard something. Weird. Must've come from that old-timer's home down the street.

[Andy G.]

Rap, I'm going to be blunt. I have no idea what you're trying to get at by pointing out my implication that Bill Bavasi was a poor GM. I'm not sure where Schuerholz or Bobby come into play.

Sure, Schuerholz worked the deal and Bobby probably approved of it. However, the bottom line is that Bavasi ended up over-coveting Horacio Ramirez when there was probably very little interest in him to begin with. We made out like bandits. Plain and simple. I'm not trying to knock the organization on this one...I was simply saying the organization tended to overhype most of their prospects back at the time. Jo-Jo is one of them, Chuck James was another, Horacio was yet another. (the latter being the only one we netted positive gain from thus far)

Please clarify from your end what you're trying to complain about. I'm very confused.
Ha! What a thread this has turned out to be!

BFH, I'm 95% sure that Rap thought you were calling Scheurholz an idiot and had no idea you were actually referring to Bavasi. To be honest, I didn't really get what you said at first either. You just said that in Horacio's case an idiot GM had touted him.

Rap, BFH's point was that the Braves hyped up those prospects, and in the case of Horacio, there was one other person that bought the hype. That person was Bavasi, the idiot GM who gave us Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez straight up.

Freddy, I understand your curiosity for why some prospects are built up more than others and why some receive harsher criticism than others when they flame out, but it's not even relevant. Jason Heyward is not comparable to any prospect we've seen recently. It's almost maddening to see anybody mention him and Chuck James in the same post as if they have something in common. Francoeur has absolutely nothing on Heyward, and I mean nothing. None of those guys are even in his league, and I'm not basing that on hype, I'm basing that on what they accomplished in their respective careers and what Heyward has accomplished in the first two seasons of his. The hype they received compared to what turned out to be their actual abilities is completely irrelevant when discussing Heyward.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I appreciate your input, Andy but you seem to be missing the point. I'm not trying to compare the skills or talents or production of any players, I just commented on the similarities between the way Half-Game James was hailed as the next big thing and the way Heyward is getting similar treatment here. I am really thrilled by the promise of Heyward and the performance estimations of a couple of our fellow posters, whose baseball opinions I trust and respect. I'm excited at the prospect of a legit 5 tool monster looming in all of our futures shared as Braves fans. I also mentioned the different treatment a couple of guys who flopped received here. I called no one out on it, I didn't say "I told you so" or suggest I knew anything beforehand. I just mentioned that I found it curious. After reading Worm's last offering, I don't find it curious. I better understand the lack of depth some of our fellow posters enjoy.

Worm, regarding your last effort - that explains just about all you have to offer. Rather than admitting your previous jab at me was based on your own misperception, you try and hide behind a tasteless remark about my age. Perhaps you should try listening to those around you with more experience and more maturity. There's no shame in learning something from your elders, only in not learning because you're too immature to respect the words of someone older than you.

[Dreamscape]

So...does anythink Jo-Jo can survive as a LOOGY?

/me shrugs and whistles down the street.

...but now that you mentioned it, I still don't think anyone thought James was the next big thing and if they did, they were a very small, small, microscopic group. Most just played him up out of jest. Sure, there was the argument that he could be a middle-of-the-rotation fixture, a notion I argued against. But I don't believe that constitutes next big thing ever as Heyward has been treated. James was more of a nice story...a window installer pitching some decent ball before the league adjusted. That was about it.

[BigWorm]

Whatever became of Half-Game James? I bring him up because he's the last bigger-than-life guy everybody blew up on the boards before he flopped miserably. Some of the hero worship being shovelled Heyward's way reminded me of him.

When you use terms like "everybody" and "hero-worship" when talking about other posters, that is just insulting. And if you are so good at prospect evaluation why don't you work for the Braves?

I think it's easy to label it as tongue-in-cheek or as jokes now, but it didn't read like jokes back when it was the hot thread. It's a lot easier to disavow any suggestions of building up a bust when he was more or less built up here. Nobody piled on James like they did media darling Francouer. It doesn't matter, it's just curious.

Yeah because posts like :"Chuck James doesn't ask for directions, because he always knows where he is going." and "Before the Boogeyman goes to sleep at night he checks in the closet for Chuck James." those posts don't read like jokes? And of course we didn't pile on him when he failed, we never expected any different. He was a fifth starter at best.

At no time did I claim to be the only one (or one period) who saw through James. I just find it curious that he drifted away rather quietly compared to the daily bashing Francoeur got. What exactly is holier-than-thou about that? I raised that as a leadoff to my idea of the huge buildup Heyward is getting. Why exactly does that send you off into a tantrum? Amongst all these intelligent fans, why shouldn't I be allowed to voice an opinion or pose a question?
I'm glad you at least recognized my point and how generous of you to deem it valid. That's so special! Apparently, we're here for different reasons. I have been a member for quite a long time and the only reason is that I have enjoyed sharing thoughts and opinions about the Braves primarily, and other things that are brought up. I suppose you are here to be adored or worshipped. I don't need the reinforcement. If that had been a goal, or even an interest, I would've bolted years ago.
Why don't you just stick to your own business and I'll continue sticking to mine. Surely there is room for more than just your view...

You obviously do need the reinforcement or you wouldn't have responded like this when I called you out. Maybe you are not meaning to sound pompous like you do. But you do. At least to me. And to compare the praises being "shoveled" Heyward's way to that of Chuck James is so far off the mark that's it's questionable if you have any cognitive recognition skills left. Your views are welcome here as are mine. Which means if I don't like your tone, I can point that out. It doesn't mean either of us is right.

I am really thrilled by the promise of Heyward and the performance estimations of a couple of our fellow posters, whose baseball opinions I trust and respect. I'm excited at the prospect of a legit 5 tool monster looming in all of our futures shared as Braves fans. I also mentioned the different treatment a couple of guys who flopped received here. I called no one out on it, I didn't say "I told you so" or suggest I knew anything beforehand. I just mentioned that I found it curious. After reading Worm's last offering, I don't find it curious. I better understand the lack of depth some of our fellow posters enjoy.

Worm, regarding your last effort - that explains just about all you have to offer. Rather than admitting your previous jab at me was based on your own misperception, you try and hide behind a tasteless remark about my age. Perhaps you should try listening to those around you with more experience and more maturity. There's no shame in learning something from your elders, only in not learning because you're too immature to respect the words of someone older than you.

Peek-A-Boo, I'm hiding. And I'm so immature it hurts. Age has nothing to do with it. I mean come on look at RickINTENNESSEE. He's always on point, while I'm constantly looking for the Rapp/Freddy deciphering codes that would allow me to understand what the hell you guys are talking about.

While I admit my last attempt at levity might have been inappropriate, I simply am "curious" about your condescending tone about hero-worship and Chuck James, that got you into this mess. Just call me "curious".

Man Jo-Jo would make a great LOOGY, if he can accept his role and be all poopy pants about it.

[Dreamscape]

I miss RiknTN.

[wordslayer©]

I miss Randyb

"I come to you tonight Chief Knockahoma with an earnest prayer....please bring Randyb back. I know now that I took him for granted. I always thought he would be here.

If you do bring him back here, I promise to never abuse him in any way. I feel just like I did when I accidently mowed over my sisters kitten all those years ago. I not only hurt myself, but I hurt all the other members here that loved Randyb like I did. So please Mr. Chief Knockahoma.....don't bring him back for me, because I am not worthy of such charity. Bring him back for all the other posters. They don't deserve to be punished for my mistakes."

[Freddy_Ballgame]

After reading your last off point attempt at making your non-existent point, Worm, I give up. Trying to make more out of what I said than was there is no more than you looking for something to crawl me about. I also understand that trying to write in a fashion that allows me to better communicate my thoughts, I may be going over your head. That's not being pompous, it's you not being able to understand me. With that in mind, I'll try and punch in my stuff from here on out as if I were dealing with kids. I apologize to you for making you have to work a little harder to understand me.
The reason I responded wasn't for reinforcement, it was in response to your RAINBOWS post directed at me. Even by clipping and quoting from my posts you still miss the PUPPIES point you GOOD FRIEND. Is this more understandable? I'll try and dumb it down. I promise. (By calling you a GOOD FRIEND, I'm just trying to get your attention. I don't mean anything mean by it. Maybe it was inappropriate. No maybe about it. ~CM)
You jumped me over something you created in your own mind, not for anything I wrote. You misunderstood it or just didn't try to read the post for what it was. For that you felt like you should rattle my cage.