An interesting look back at the Teixeira trade in 2007 (MLB.com)

[Agent-X-]

Saw this this morning at MLB.com. Some interesting comments from Schuerholz. Here's the bit about the Braves.

The deal did not have the desired impact on the Braves, who had started 48-year-old Julio Franco at first base on July 31. Teixeira arrived the next day and hit a three-run home run in a 12-3 victory over the Astros. That left Atlanta with a 57-51 record, 3 1/2 games behind the Mets. But the Braves had a .500 record from there and finished in third place.

"Teixeira did exactly what we thought he would do when he got here," Schuerholz said. "None of us planned on our pitching staff being decimated by injuries after we got him. We had some trouble winning one-run games, too, but that was a function of being able to keep healthy pitchers out there.

"I'd be dishonest if I didn't tell you that there was a lot of conversation and contemplation about, 'Should we do this? Is this the right guy? We know he's going to be a free agent, and we know that his market price is going to be so steep that we might not be able to match it. But if we can get back in the playoffs and we can re-energize our community, our team and our fans, then it's worth it.'"

It was still a hefty package, although the Braves fended off the Rangers' efforts to acquire pitcher Tommy Hanson or center fielder Jordan Shafer.

"We knew we had to give up some talented young players to do it," Schuerholz said. "But throughout my career, we've been willing to trade quality to get quality, if it was the right piece. It doesn't always work. We did the same thing when we got J.D. Drew.

"But if you really want to win and you're committed to doing it and you've got the scouting system that keeps your farm system filled with quality talent ... then you can make those deals. You can't make a lot of them, but occasionally and periodically you can do it."

Two years later, Andrus and Saltalamacchia are regulars in the Rangers' lineup. Harrison was in their starting rotation until he went on the disabled list with biceps left tendinitis. Feliz is at Triple-A Oklahoma City and on the verge of being called up. Jones is at Double-A Frisco.

Teixeira, on the verge of free agency, began the 2008 season with the Braves. But on July 29, with the Braves in fourth place, he was traded to the Angels for first baseman Casey Kotchman and Minor League pitcher Stephen Marek. It was not a deal that recouped the talent the Braves traded to the Rangers.

"Even with the realization that Mark was the perfect guy for us to get, there was a lot of lively conversation internally about each and every prospect that we put in that deal and how tough it was to do for us as an organization that is a quote-unquote homegrown organization to give up so much homegrown talent," Schuerholz said. "But we believed on balance that even if it looked like the sweeter deal for the other team, we got the guy that we wanted.

"We weren't stripped bare when we made that deal. We had some other young players coming along, thanks again to the great scouting and player development that our guys do. We weren't completely knocked off our feet by not having any talent behind those guys. We had a healthy farm system then, and we still have a healthy farm system."

[ The full article (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090726&content_id=6067562&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) ]

What do you guys think of this trade in retrospect? I know we didn't make the playoffs. If I recall, I think most people here KNEW we needed starting pitching and bullpen help. I don't really even agree with Schuerholz's logic in making that particular trade. I understood the logic in some of his past trades, such as for Drew, because we had a legitimate shot at winning. I don't know... with Jon it was always an intense poker match between him and other GMs where no one, especially the fans, knew whether we were actually giving up serious talent or not.

Interesting read! Thank God we didn't give up Tommy Hanson in the Teixeira deal!

[wordslayer©]

Horrible trade...and even listening to JS's logic now, it sounds more like justification for doing a bad move than it being an actual well thought out plan.

No one player is going to do that much for you, because you are dependent upon what the rest of the team does.

IF we could have signed him for a long term deal, then yeah, you could have made an argument for it, but not knowing that you could sign him and then making the trade.....just horrible.

But then again, I'm like BFH.....I've never been gah gah over JS, either.

[jamminHANES]

We made this trade from positions of depth. Feliz is the one that hurts the most but our major league starting rotation is our biggest strength. Andrus isn't as good as Escobar. Salty isn't as good as McCann. Jones isn't as good as a lot of people in our system. Harrison is a fine pitcher but losing him hasn't really hurt our rotations depth. In retrospect you can't say it was a good trade because we didn't get to the playoffs either season. However it was a low risk trade because of the players we had in front of the people we traded. I am still fine with making moves like that out of positions of strength. We didn't give up the people we didn't want to give up and got the guy we all wanted and the guy we thought could give us that push into the playoffs. I would have rather went after a pitcher, but that's the front offices decision. Franco and Thorman weren't cutting it.

[luvdembravos]

We made this trade from positions of depth. Feliz is the one that hurts the most but our major league starting rotation is our biggest strength. Andrus isn't as good as Escobar. Salty isn't as good as McCann. Jones isn't as good as a lot of people in our system. Harrison is a fine pitcher but losing him hasn't really hurt our rotations depth. In retrospect you can't say it was a good trade because we didn't get to the playoffs either season. However it was a low risk trade because of the players we had in front of the people we traded. I am still fine with making moves like that out of positions of strength. We didn't give up the people we didn't want to give up and got the guy we all wanted and the guy we thought could give us that push into the playoffs. I would have rather went after a pitcher, but that's the front offices decision. Franco and Thorman weren't cutting it.

I was about to write that it was the worst trade JS ever made until I read your post. Your "depth" argument makes a lot of sense and perhaps the trade really didn't hurt the Braves as much as many think.

Feliz looks like he could be special and I agree that losing him hurts the most. Harrison just ended his season and who knows if he will come back from surgery (he's having a rib removed? Ouch!)

Still, I think the trade was a "teachable moment" ;) for Frank Wren. It rarely pays to give away great prospects for a one or 1+ year rental.

I hope the Braves have learned their lesson.

[Andy G.]

I agree with jammin. The thing is, though, that even if the players we gave up are getting too much love, we won't miss them all that much, and they were all dealt from positions of strength, their value could have been used to get us something better than a 1 1/2 year rental that wouldn't help us get in the playoffs.

That said, this trade doesn't sting that much to me. It was a bad deal for sure, but jammin listed all of the reasons why this trade just doesn't upset me that much.

[Devil Wears Prado]

I thought it was a bad deal when it happened. Teixeira was a rental, and we gave up great prospects to get him. Schuerholz basically said screw this... screw the future, I deserve another shot at it. We basically gave up all those prospects just to end up with Kotchman at first a couple years later.

[jamminHANES]

I thought it was a bad deal when it happened. Teixeira was a rental, and we gave up great prospects to get him. Schuerholz basically said screw this... screw the future, I deserve another shot at it. We basically gave up all those prospects just to end up with Kotchman at first a couple years later.

If he was saying screw the future he would have gave them Hanson and Schafer and been done with it...

[Devil Wears Prado]

If he was saying screw the future he would have gave them Hanson and Schafer and been done with it...

Neftali Feliz is not far from Hanson IMO. Saltalamacchia is not as good as some people think, but he still had much more value at that time and we could have thought of a better plan instead of dumping a good part of our minor league at that time.

[sdp]

It will always be a bad trade, but the damage is not going to be something that keeps this team from competing in the next 3-6 years.

[Hobbes]

I'd say it was a bad trade all the way. Whether we had sufficient depth in the system after trading away those prospects is irrelevant. The only question is whether the player we received was worth the price. It was obvious from day one (to any realistic fan) that Teix was not going to be re-signed. Given that, the bevy of talent given to get him was an exhorbitant price. Even if we could "afford" it, it was still too high a price.

Just because someone has billions of dollars doesn't make it a good deal to pay $50K for a Ford Focus. Similarly, just because the Braves could afford to give up those prospects doesn't mean the price was fair. Whether the Braves are hurt long-term by this trade or not does not change the merits of the trade.

[wordslayer©]

I'd say it was a bad trade all the way. Whether we had sufficient depth in the system after trading away those prospects is irrelevant. The only question is whether the player we received was worth the price. It was obvious from day one (to any realistic fan) that Teix was not going to be re-signed. Given that, the bevy of talent given to get him was an exhorbitant price. Even if we could "afford" it, it was still too high a price.

Just because someone has billions of dollars doesn't make it a good deal to pay $50K for a Ford Focus. Similarly, just because the Braves could afford to give up those prospects doesn't mean the price was fair. Whether the Braves are hurt long-term by this trade or not does not change the merits of the trade.

Well said.

These players weren't fruit that had to be eaten before they went bad.

I don't think it killed the organization, but it certainly DID hurt the organization. We paid an outlandish price for Lowe, because we weren't in a good position. We still don't have any 3rd basemen nearly ready to take over when Chipper breaks down.

There is no way, no how, you can say this was a good trade just because it didn't hurt us any more than it did. We could have parlayed those players into numerous things that we could be using at this time.

[Dreamscape]

Awful trade.

I don't believe trading from depth helps any. The Braves' biggest problem in 2007 was pitching. While Schuerholz can try to spin it and Andruw's terrible season that year hurt, the Braves had a pretty good offense that year without Teix. Only 1B and CF weren't producing and if Cox would have moved Andruw down the lineup quicker, the entire Braves lineup would have been better.

I've heard about how this player didn't blow up and this player disappointed, but at the time, Jarrod Saltalamacchia was the best catcher in the minors. Matt Harrison had solid numbers and maxed out as a third starter. Elvis Andrus was regarded as a player with enormous potential to become anything between Omar Vizquel and Derek Jeter. And Feliz...well, anything is possible when you have his special arm.

You can argue that only Feliz matters, but we couldn't have used these players in efforts to improve the pitching staff that, during that year, relied on Chuck James, Buddy Carlyle, Kyle Davies, Jo-Jo Reyes, Mark Redman, Lance Cormier, Jeff Bennett and Anthony Lerew in the 98 games Hudson and Smoltz did not start? Was Teix, Mahay, and Dotel supposed to mask the fact that in this game, starting pitching kills you or saves you? Maybe you can pull that in Philly or Denver or that little league park the Reds call home, but Turner Field is at best neutral and more times than not, benefits the pitchers. And even that couldn't save the dreck the Braves went to when Smoltz and Hudson weren't starting.

Teix did nothing to solve the problems of this organization and I can't possibly forgive Schuerholz for his ill-fated attempt to go all-in and try and fake a trip to the playoffs before heading off into the sunset. The only thing more obvious from Built to Win than his lack of comprehension of Moneyball is his ego.

[KB 34]

None of us planned on our pitching staff being decimated by injuries after we got him. We had some trouble winning one-run games, too, but that was a function of being able to keep healthy pitchers out there.
The starting rotation was pathetic before the trade as well as after. Any poster here could have told you that. At this point I couldn't take the article seriously anymore. It's nothing but a pathetic defense for a really terrible move. I don't take comfort in some of the prospects that were trading being blocked either. Marte was blocked and brought back Renteria, that sure didn't hurt the Braves. Hanson was blocked early this season but then Glavine's career croaked. When players are blocked they become trade bait and should bring back a nice return that fills positions that are weaknesses.

If those prospects had been spread out in several deals the Braves are probably leading the division right now and haven't had outfield woes all season. Speaking of blocked players I just remembered Lillibridge and (insert other really good prospect traded for Vazquez here, a catcher I recall) also were blocked and brought back an ace for the starting rotation. I don't see how trading those prospects for 1.5 and .5 year rentals did anything short of hurting the franchise for the longterm.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

We made this trade from positions of depth. Feliz is the one that hurts the most but our major league starting rotation is our biggest strength. Andrus isn't as good as Escobar. Salty isn't as good as McCann. Jones isn't as good as a lot of people in our system. Harrison is a fine pitcher but losing him hasn't really hurt our rotations depth. In retrospect you can't say it was a good trade because we didn't get to the playoffs either season. However it was a low risk trade because of the players we had in front of the people we traded. I am still fine with making moves like that out of positions of strength. We didn't give up the people we didn't want to give up and got the guy we all wanted and the guy we thought could give us that push into the playoffs. I would have rather went after a pitcher, but that's the front offices decision. Franco and Thorman weren't cutting it.

I hate hearing this argument. It's silly and I think its ridiculous to say it was ok we gave away so much talent, due to having depth. If that's the case then Donald Trump should go out and pay $1,000 for a coke. Maybe ante up 3k for a cup of coffee. After all he doesn't need the money that much. He has plenty in the bank. It's an excuse for making an awful deal and nothing more. IMO

[sdp]

What's done is done. All I can say is, I believe that trade is a trade Frank Wren wouldn't have made. It was JS's parting shot--a foolish attempt to hit playoff gold. Jon Daniels made him look like a school boy.

[jamminHANES]

I hate hearing this argument. It's silly and I think its ridiculous to say it was ok we gave away so much talent, due to having depth. If that's the case then Donald Trump should go out and pay $1,000 for a coke. Maybe ante up 3k for a cup of coffee. After all he doesn't need the money that much. He has plenty in the bank. It's an excuse for making an awful deal and nothing more. IMO

Not really, we went for a big deal and haven't really seen any negative effects to the organization.

[Wahoo]

Not really, we went for a big deal and haven't really seen any negative effects to the organization.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Think of the opportunity costs as a result of this deal and the players that we could have acquired with all of that talent (i.e. Jake Peavy).

[bravos4evr]

yeah, every once in a while you make a mistake. People arent perfect ya know!

It wasn't as horrible as some people think ( because IMO it's hard to figure what a year of Tex's playing time is worth as well as half a season of Maholm). But it hasn't turned out well... But them's the breaks, I think we forget that these GM's are just people! It's not like JS was Bavasi or anything!

[Wahoo]

yeah, every once in a while you make a mistake. People arent perfect ya know!

It wasn't as horrible as some people think ( because IMO it's hard to figure what a year of Tex's playing time is worth as well as half a season of Maholm). But it hasn't turned out well... But them's the breaks, I think we forget that these GM's are just people! It's not like JS was Bavasi or anything!


I don't think anyone here is trying to light Scheurholz's huevos' on fire, we're just discussing if it were a bad deal or not. And, I think it was a bad deal.

[KB 34]

Not really, we went for a big deal and haven't really seen any negative effects to the organization.
And how have the Braves done as an organization after making the deal? Last season the team went 72-90, missed the playoffs by a longshot, and traded Teix for something because he was going to walk. That is a pretty ugly situation for a franchise that prides itself on winning.

On a more general note here's how I would put it into perspective. As a move it was a terrible decision as the Braves didn't win a WS or resign Teix for a reasonable deal, nor did they even come remotely close or show signs it could have happened. I could care less how the prospects have developed because they could have been turned into other players as well. The Braves have routinely turned future busts into really nice players and if they thought these players were likely busts could have done the same. The choice was never to trade them for Teix or keep them, which is how all this seems to get twisted. For JS this was his worst trade as a Braves GM if you ask me, bumping the Hampton deal to #2. That doesn't mean he didn't make a lot of amazing moves because he did and overall the Braves were extremely fortunate to have him around for so long. However, I still wish he had been fired 5 minutes before he made this move because it was that bad in my opinion.

[Agent-X-]

And how have the Braves done as an organization after making the deal? Last season the team went 72-90, missed the playoffs by a longshot, and traded Teix for something because he was going to walk. That is a pretty ugly situation for a franchise that prides itself on winning.

On a more general note here's how I would put it into perspective. As a move it was a terrible decision as the Braves didn't win a WS or resign Teix for a reasonable deal, nor did they even come remotely close or show signs it could have happened. I could care less how the prospects have developed because they could have been turned into other players as well. The Braves have routinely turned future busts into really nice players and if they thought these players were likely busts could have done the same. The choice was never to trade them for Teix or keep them, which is how all this seems to get twisted. For JS this was his worst trade as a Braves GM if you ask me, bumping the Hampton deal to #2. That doesn't mean he didn't make a lot of amazing moves because he did and overall the Braves were extremely fortunate to have him around for so long. However, I still wish he had been fired 5 minutes before he made this move because it was that bad in my opinion.

I agree with you to some degree, but it could have been much worse. If this is Schuerholz's worst trade, then that speaks highly of his track record. It wasn't the most logical trade to make, but he gave it a shot. If we take the whole Teixeira saga into consideration, then I can see that the result was pretty weak considering the talent we dealt. I have a hard time accepting that we were major sellers with Teixeira and we walked away with Kotchman. What went wrong for us in that situation? I don't understand... how we didn't get more. :confused:

[jamminHANES]

I agree with you to some degree, but it could have been much worse. If this is Schuerholz's worst trade, then that speaks highly of his track record. It wasn't the most logical trade to make, but he gave it a shot. If we take the whole Teixeira saga into consideration, then I can see that the result was pretty weak considering the talent we dealt. I have a hard time accepting that we were major sellers with Teixeira and we walked away with Kotchman. What went wrong for us in that situation? I don't understand... how we didn't get more. :confused:

He only had 2 more months under contract and there was no guarantee whichever team traded for him would sign him. We even sent him to a big market team and they weren't able to keep him resigned. Everyone was weary about giving much value for him.

[CharlotteBrave]

Sorry for my ignorance y'all, but I wasn't following the Braves message boards when the Tex trade happened, but what's the deal with Stephen Marek?

Is he a guy that'll never make it to the bigs? I noticed he wasn't on TC's list of prospects.

Stupid question I know! So my apologies!

[KB 34]

Marek has split the season between AA and AAA and from what I can tell from the stats hasn't done well in either. Since he is 25 years old I'm guessing his future isn't looking great right now.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=marek-001ste

[warefreak]

This to me will be one of the worse trades I have ever seen. I thought trading Justice was the worst until this one. I agree with everybody that just because you have depth doesn't mean you should trade it for a rental. These players could have either helped the Braves when an injury occured or got one heck of a better return later.

On the flipside the Andy Marte trade to the Red Sox started one of the best trades I have ever seen. We got a good SS for a year, then flipped him to Detroit for Jurrjens who is, to me, the ace of this team.

Ya win some, ya lose some. Unfortunately with that trade, we lost a LOT!

[quick]

I have a slightly different take on the Tex trade.

I would suggest to you that a trade like this only makes sense IF (i) you know you have a good nucleus that is already playoff caliber without the trade and the standings reflect that, and (ii) the main reason you are doing the deal is to get a piece that will enable you to get deep into the playoffs, i.e. this new piece will enable you to match up well with a major post-season rival who will almost certainly be in your way.

If you make a trade like this to get to the playoffs on a hunch, I think it is almost always a bad deal.

To futher cement my point, the Phillies needed to get Halladay or Lee, even if they had to give up lots more than they did to get Lee (and we know the stole Lee) because they are a playoff caliber team NOW with one of the great offenses of our time, are in first place NOW, and are stacking the deck to make a deep run with a team that cannot be kept together more than a few more years. Adding Lee should give them depth in a short series and he can be spectacular. He is not so good against Manny, however (.429 avg in 14 AB); Halladay would have been better--career .266 av in 79 at-bats--but Halladay would have cost much more.

If the Phils were an average team in third place, on the way down and looking for a boost, such a deal would probably not make much sense. The Braves were a team with lots of holes and our typically mediocre offense, weak or injured pitching, 3 1/2 games out, likely going nowhere, when we did the Tex deal, so for that reason, I do not think it was a good trade.

I think our management likes to give the appearance of putting a good product on the field; I hate that terminology--I don't want a good product, I don't want a competitive team year-in, year-out, I want a winner. Doing deals gives the appearance of doing something; deals to help you actually win are harder to do and more rare. I believe most teams win with home grown talent and a very few, carefully culled free agents or trades....

[warefreak]

Especially after the trade to get Laroche back this trade looks even worse.

I just can't help think why couldn't we get a player like Brandon Wood or Lars Anderson???

[KB 34]

The deals are quite independent though. JS made the deal for Teix and left Wren to cleanup the mess. Wren salvaged a little out of the situation by trading for Kotchman, who a lot of Angels fans expected to really breakout with the Braves when the deal was made. Wren decided for reasons yet to be determined that LaRoche was a better fit for the organization's goals and here we are today.