How much does a hitting coach have to do with production?

[Davey Crockett]

Does a hitting coach have a lot to do with overall production of a team? I've been wondering how much influence one might have..

[wordslayer©]

I want to believe that they do, but in all actuality, I doubt they have much effect on a hitter.

George Brett was a huge believer in Charlie Lau as his hitting coach, but when the evidence was tallied up, Brett hit better when Lau wasn't around giving him advice.

It's a very difficult thing to assess. You'd have to have a huge sample size to do it. You'd have to be able to chart exactly how the hitter was doing prior to a new hitting coach arriving. You'd have to then factor how his advance/decline in age would effect his play. You'd have to know park effects, league averages....so many variables.

Personally, I think teaching a hitter to hit ahead in the count is a helluva lot more effective than anything, mechanically, a coach could ever do to help him. If coaches could teach patience, they'd probably do more to help a hitter than anything else they could do, because sitting on a fastball on a 3-1 pitch is a whole lot easier to hit over the slider, down and away, on a 1-2 count.

[bravos4evr]

I think the philosophy a hitting coach preaches to young hitters is the biggest influence he can have. Take TP for instance. He can preach aggression all day and Chipper will just nod his head and go up there and take 6 straight pitches and walk to first. He gives a ****.
But when a guy like KJ or Frenchy come in and seem to get progressively worse ( especially KJ who's pitches per AB have declined and thereas his effectiveness) it doth make one wonder if the philosophy is bad. I mean, is it any coincidence that as goes pitches per at bat by team there also goes the highest scoring offenses in baseball?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I don't see Chipper showing extraordinary patience. He seems as quick on the trigger as any of them. I watch a guy like Prado make a pitcher work, taking pitches, fouling off a few and then drawing a walk or getting a hit. Chipper steps in and immediately swings at whatever the pitcher throws. One pitch, two outs.
Contrary to what Slayer said, I think a batting coach is a lot more than someone trying to teach patience, and he has to be to have a good effect. The mechanics of hitting are as important as those of pitching. Proper balance, a comfortable stance, controlled weight shift and a fluid swing are musts to be successful. The coaches need to be familiar with these aspects of their hitters as well as offering aapproaches or theories. I tend to believe TP is pretty well versed in his trade, but I don't think he gets much useful reinforcement from Cox. I don't remember TP jumping out of his shoes swinging at first pitches too often in the name of being "aggressive." He was a controlled hitter with a good eye who made the most of his skills. I think TP should preach successful ABs, not aggressiveness. Particularly with this team. I don't think many coaches could be successful in a clubhouse with the lax discipline preached and practiced by Cox. He doesn't try and "work" an offense, he just lets them swing away.

[Hobbes]

I don't see Chipper showing extraordinary patience. He seems as quick on the trigger as any of them. I watch a guy like Prado make a pitcher work, taking pitches, fouling off a few and then drawing a walk or getting a hit. Chipper steps in and immediately swings at whatever the pitcher throws. One pitch, two outs.
You are watching a completely different Chipper than I am.

[wordslayer©]

You are watching a completely different Chipper than I am.

AND....a completely different Pendleton that I saw.

[FrankEC]

I don't see Chipper showing extraordinary patience. He seems as quick on the trigger as any of them. I watch a guy like Prado make a pitcher work, taking pitches, fouling off a few and then drawing a walk or getting a hit. Chipper steps in and immediately swings at whatever the pitcher throws. One pitch, two outs.

Yeah Fred, I agree with Hobbes on this one. You must just be watching Chipper at the wrong times. He is seeing 3.7 pitches per plate appearance this year, Prado is only slightly better at 4.1. Also, Chipper has only hit into 6 double plays this year in 74 games, Prado has hit into 7 in 60.

[CharlotteBrave]

Would be interesting to see the stats plugged to figure out which hitting coaches really have been "the best" in the game.

[Davey Crockett]

So, TP definitely preaches agressiveness?

[hoosjon]

I think "aggressiveness" is more of an organizational philosophy. Or maybe it's better to say that it is allowed more as an organization. I feel like Bobby is too "hands-off" with players. He is willing to let them work through their issues entirely too long.

I don't know HOW many polls I've seen in SI over the years where Cox-y came out as the manager most players would want to play for (only rule was they couldn't vote for their current manager). I really feel like that's because he's too player-friendly and doesn't challenge them enough.

I know that every book I've read about Scheurholz, and Cox and the Braves teams of the 90s speaks to our top-to-bottom approach where the philosophies taught in the majors run all the way to the minors. It's also why we always used to get high school players, vs. college players. We would have to "unlearn" the college players to quote Yoda.

So, is it TP, or Cox, or the Braves hitters, or the Braves organization from top to bottom? I feel like it's a copout to just say "all of them". There needs to be a "buck stops here" person to reign in the hitters. It could be said that Terry should be that guy, but depending on his instructions from management, it might not be his place. Maybe he's just there to tweek mechanical problems or something.

[Davey Crockett]

It seems to me that if you're going to be agressive behind the plate, you need to be able to put the bat on the ball. If you don't, you're playing catch up. And in our case make for a quick out. Perfect example: Frenchy. I don't think an agressive approach suits most of our batters. But what do I know.. Maybe we don't see the ball very well and the strategy would be to get while the gettin's good.

Also, I don't see how we would know any of this anyways - making your teams approach at the plate public info would just dictate how other teams will pitch you. If I was TP I definitely would not let anyone in on my teams approach at the plate.

[Dreamscape]

It's been touched on, but I think the most direct effect a coach in the majors as is putting together the organizational philosophy. I can't say if Pendleton is having the same impact as Leo had for so many years on the way things were taught, but he has been around awhile and has been considered a Cox replacement in the Braves' eyes so I would not be surprised.

The young players certainly are of most concern at the handling of Pendleton. As bravos commented on, established players have had years to understand what works and largely know how to fix them themselves or have a person or two that they feel comfortable asking for help, which isn't always their coach. When I look at the young hitters, I just don't see Pendleton helping them, though Prado's continued improvement is impossible to ignore.

Frankly, I would love it if the Braves took on a more sabermetric way of doing things and I think Wren is far more open to doing that than Schuerholz, who needlessly blasted Moneyball without understanding it.

[Wahoo]

The correct answer to this question: Enough influence to fire Terry Pendleton's sorry arse.

[Hobbes]

Obviously, how much blame he deserves is open to debate, but I just can't see any reason not to fire Pendleton.

[Wahoo]

I just can't see any reason not to fire Pendleton.


See Page 1 in the Bobby Cox handbook for how to manage a baseball team: "Loyalty rules all, especially when a guy stinks."

On a side note, if there aren't some major changes this offseason, I think I am officially going to lose faith in the management of this organization altogether.

[BigWorm]

The problem was made by Bobby Cox. It wasn't wrong to hire Terry Pendleton, I think we all were in support of the hire. The problem was the capacity in which he was hired. If you're going to "groom" someone to take over your job someday, the last place you want to put them in, is in a position where they will be judged severely by other's performances. IMO Pendleton should have been made "bench coach" by Bobby or moved there when Pat Corrales got too drunk one night and abandoned ship. In the "bench coach" position, he could concentrate more on the whole team, than having to bander around with a bunch of overpaid babies, who think they know everything. Pendleton was set up to fail, and he has in every aspect of the job. It's too late to move him to bench coach now, which is why I wonder if Cox really thought TP would be his successor.

[Hobbes]

I've never seen any comment from the organization that led me to believe that TP was heir-apparent to Bobby. I've seen plenty of speculation by fans and sports writers, but nothing from the team itself.

In fact, the only time I recall it being addressed by a Braves representative was in an in-booth interview with JS. I also recall him being very diplomatic, but giving the distinct impression that he saw no such future for TP.

[ScooterBrave]

I don't know HOW many polls I've seen in SI over the years where Cox-y came out as the manager most players would want to play for (only rule was they couldn't vote for their current manager). I really feel like that's because he's too player-friendly and doesn't challenge them enough.


Which I would buy except that EVERYONE speaks highly of Bobby Cox, including other managers. You could say that they are looking after one of their own kind, but they are as effusive with some other managers.

That said, I had a professor in college who said they management creates all the problems and are the only ones to resolve them. If the team isn't performing, the buck stops with Cox. If the personnel is not sufficient, the buck stops with Wren.