Concerned About the Bullpen

[KB 34]

I've linked to the league leaders for games pitched. The Braves are well represented as I write this.

Moylan is alone in first place with 45 games pitched.

(2 pitchers have 44)

O'Flaherty and Gonzalez are in a 4 way tie for third with 43 games pitched.

This makes 3 Braves pitchers in the top 10!
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Soriano is tied for 20th with 38 games pitched.
Bennett was much higher earlier in the season but has dropped to 48th in the rankings.

Now let's look at how many innings the starting rotation is eating.
Vazquez=6.59 innings/start
Lowe=5.90 innings/start
Jurrjens=6.01 innings/start
Kawakami=5.49 innings/start
Hanson=6.00 innings/start

The basic idea there is the starting rotation is throwing a lot of innings. To find a comparable staff to this point I believe you'd have to go back to 2003. Can the starting rotation keep it up? I suspect it will be fine but there will be a slight dropoff overall which isn't a huge deal seeing it's been excellent. Can the bullpen pick up the slack? I don't like the Braves having 3/10 of the most used relievers and I fear it's going to come back and haunt the Braves bad. Acosta and Medlen need to be used and Moylan needs a TJ tatoo on his forehead to remind BC he's coming off major surgery or something.

[Andy G.]

I honestly don't worry about it too much. We don't know anything about the throwing regimen these pitchers use, what they do to prepare their arm before the season, or how they condition their arms during the season. I feel like relievers are babied too much in major league baseball. A lot of knowledgeable people don't believe in the theory that a pitcher can only throw so many innings in a given season. So much depends on things that we don't see as fans.

I realize that logically, a pitcher that has to use his arm more than most would seem more likely to suffer an injury or fade down the stretch because of it. I just think that there's a lot more to it than that.

[BraveFan]

The lack of offensive production is the cause of the bullpen problems or concerns. The Braves don't win enough games by high enough margins were they can feel comfortable enough throwing anyone outside of Moylan, Soriano, and Gonzalez. With the great rotation if the offense comes around we will have more blowouts and throw guys like Logan , Medlen, and Acosta more.

[luvdembravos]

You have a point but there’s nothing the Braves have done in the first half to indicate the offense will come around. Our solid starting pitching and horrid offense just means most games will continue to be close and we won’t witness many blowouts down the stretch. Besides, Bobby Cox has shown that he will still go to his work horses in rare cases when the Braves have a big lead late in the game. He’s not going to change his bullpen management style any time soon.

[Dreamscape]

Even if the impact on these pitchers is quite minimal this year, it makes me wary of bringing either Gonzalez or Soriano back next year. Both pitchers have shown their fragile nature before and with the abuse at the hands of Cox, signing them past two years could be a huge mistake.

[Hobbes]

it makes me wary of bringing either Gonzalez or Soriano back next year
BTW, thank you for properly using the term "wary", and not the oft-misused substitute of "weary" (I would have also accepted "leery"). :)

[Chris_Moderato]

BTW, thank you for properly using the term "wary", and not the oft-misused substitute of "weary" (I would have also accepted "leery"). :)

I've also noticed a rise in "wallah".

[BigWorm]

BJ Ryan was just released by the Toronto Blue Jays. He started horrible this year, but last month he didn't do to bad. Might as well sign him and see how good Roga' is at a rebuilding project.

[bravos4evr]

Hmmmm BJ Ryan.... would we only have to pay him league minimum or assume his contract? ( cuz I bet it's fairly high). If the former is true then why not! if it's the latter, um noooooooooooooooo.

[luvdembravos]

Hmmmm BJ Ryan.... would we only have to pay him league minimum or assume his contract? ( cuz I bet it's fairly high). If the former is true then why not! if it's the latter, um noooooooooooooooo.

Ryan's owed $10M this year and next. Ouch!

[BigWorm]

Ryan's owed $10M this year and next. Ouch!

So does that mean if the Blue Jays owe him that money, or any team that signs him?

As far as I understand, the Blue Jays owe that money and any new team that signed him would have him sign a new contract, right?

[Dreamscape]

The Jays owe him the money minus any money he is paid by another major league team. If Ryan doesn' get a contract this year and signs next year for a million, the Jays would owe him $9M. I imagine Ryan will require a major league contract to sign for the rest of the year or simply work out on his own. Considering how much he lost on his fastball, I wouldn't give him major league money and a spot. The guy simply can't get anyone out right now.

Also, example #34223465 why you don't sign relievers long-term.

[RiknTN]

Even if the impact on these pitchers is quite minimal this year, it makes me wary of bringing either Gonzalez or Soriano back next year. Both pitchers have shown their fragile nature before and with the abuse at the hands of Cox, signing them past two years could be a huge mistake.

I don't know.....I like Soriano as a closer. Price a little high now but it's been way better than the musical chairs we've played with closers over the past 4 or 5 yrs. I think $10mil is fair for our 8th and 9th inning. We rag on them when they blow up.....but most 8th/9th inning guys blow up now and then. I've felt much better with them (especially Soriano...he's geting plenty of experience plus getting over his injuries) out there than anybody we've had last few yrs. None of these guys are ever gonna be near-perfect. Too much to ask IMO. Soriano is about average in games and innings pitched for all the league closers (so he's not really over used anymore than others). But except for the guy in LA he is way up there in K/IP ratio and with a really low ERA (I know that means less for a reliever...but comparing apples to apples).

[Dreamscape]

Agreed...but relievers have a extreme tendency to break down. Especially hard throwers. Especially under Bobby Cox. It's not the price tag that bugs me so much about Soriano or Gonzalez. It's the years. Two years, I can deal with. A three year option that is completely on the Braves' hands to implement, I can deal with. But three or *gasp* four years? The kind of deal that they may receive on the open market? I'll take my chances on finding another Soriano or Gonzalez via trade.

[Hobbes]

I could live with a 2-year deal (with a third-year team option) for Soriano. For Gonzo, not so much.

[RiknTN]

Soriano is young still. ALL pitchers are an injury risk. If it were my decision I would take my chances on these two (especially Soriano....there's not many guys with the power to end an inning in 10 pitches or less) He's got that "look". I would place my bets on this horse. Of course it's a risk. His innings pitched are about the same as others in his role. Not being over used per his peers.

[Lauren T.]

I could live with a 2-year deal (with a third-year team option) for Soriano. For Gonzo, not so much.
Agreed 100%. :thumbsup: Sori scares the heck out of me, but isn't that what we WANT in our closer?

[RiknTN]

Agreed 100%. :thumbsup: Sori scares the heck out of me, but isn't that what we WANT in our closer?

That's what I meant when I commented he had the "look".....scary....cold....."don't f*** with me".....

[Braves N 10]

I would not mind having Ryan sign with us for league minimum. I think he would have decent numbers in the NL.

[BigWorm]

Especially with Gonzo out, please tell me why we wouldn't take a flyer on BJ Ryan?

[Dreamscape]

Well, one, I'd made Ryan have to work his way back to the big leagues and I'm not sure he's willing to do that right now. Some team is likely to give him a contract to join their major league bullpen, or at least he thinks so. The guy has been extra special horrible this year. You take a shot on him at Gwinnett, not with Atlanta. I think he will probably wait for a major league call before settling with whatever contender is thinking of a minor league stint with a September callup.

Oh...and two...he sucks.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Didn't I hear O'Flaherty in the game mowing down some big Rockies bats Thursday night? Aside from a bad outing a while back, possibly from getting the Cox "ride 'em til they blow up" treatment, he's been excellent. I tend to believe that almost anyone they run in there replacing Carlyle and Bennett will look better to me. It's a chance for some kids or retreads to shine!

[KB 34]

Cox has decided that unlike every other LOOGY that comes to Atlanta O'Flaherty faces lefties and doesn't pitch full innings against righties. I'm glad to see the sudden unexpected shift in strategy. I wish it happened a while ago because I believe pitchers like McBride and Ring would have done well in the role O'Flaherty is filling.

[ChopTime]

Agreed...but relievers have a extreme tendency to break down. Especially hard throwers. Especially under Bobby Cox. It's not the price tag that bugs me so much about Soriano or Gonzalez. It's the years. Two years, I can deal with. A three year option that is completely on the Braves' hands to implement, I can deal with. But three or *gasp* four years? The kind of deal that they may receive on the open market? I'll take my chances on finding another Soriano or Gonzalez via trade.



You do remember the closers we've been through the past few years, right? I'd take my chances resigning Soriano and not go through that living hell again.

I can think of a lot of words that pitchers use when describing their time under Bobby Cox, but I don't think "abuse" would find its way in there.

[Dreamscape]

Every pitcher wants the ball in just about every game. It's the nature of pitching. You don't see a pitcher say "I'm a LOOGY so don't put me against any right-handed hitters." They want the ball against Pujols. It's the managers job not to overuse them.

Again, I don't have a problem with signing Soriano for two years. But you don't overreact just because Wickmoo and Reitsma sucked. If Soriano wants three years guaranteed and $30M, do you give it to him just because you've had a few bad closers over the years? That's not fiscally responsible thinking in my mind.

[ChopTime]

Every pitcher wants the ball in just about every game. It's the nature of pitching. You don't see a pitcher say "I'm a LOOGY so don't put me against any right-handed hitters." They want the ball against Pujols. It's the managers job not to overuse them.

Again, I don't have a problem with signing Soriano for two years. But you don't overreact just because Wickmoo and Reitsma sucked. If Soriano wants three years guaranteed and $30M, do you give it to him just because you've had a few bad closers over the years? That's not fiscally responsible thinking in my mind.


I see what you're saying. But if there's one thing we know, it's that it's hard to find a good closer. I don't know how confident they feel with Soriano moving forward, but if they feel he can continue to pitch like he has for us this season, I'd say it's worth trying to make a deal to keep him here. Especially if we're looking at 2010 as a playoff year.

[KB 34]

Keep in mind there aren't many closers like Smoltz was around. Soriano is a legitimate closer and I'd love to see him back for a shorterm deal at $7.5 million/season, provided the money works out and I haven't looked at it yet. My sense is Braves closers are being evaluated based on whether they bring everything to the table Smoltz did and few do. Soriano is an above average closer and that's good enough for me considering it takes 3 relievers to build a setup/closer end of game group in my book.

[ChopTime]

Keep in mind there aren't many closers like Smoltz was around. Soriano is a legitimate closer and I'd love to see him back for a shorterm deal at $7.5 million/season, provided the money works out and I haven't looked at it yet. My sense is Braves closers are being evaluated based on whether they bring everything to the table Smoltz did and few do. Soriano is an above average closer and that's good enough for me considering it takes 3 relievers to build a setup/closer end of game group in my book.



In my mind you have to ask yourself: "where would we be this season without Moylan, Gonzalez and Soriano," and I shudder at the thought. It could be UGLY right now. Soriano has definitely been the best of those 3, and I think he's as important a piece to keep as any right now.

[BraveFan]

The Braves have been searching for years for a closer and we have one now and we better re-sign him if we want to win anytime soon.

I am convinced the Braves won't trade Vazquez and these means that Hudson will pitch out of the pen mostly and I think he could be a huge help in the pen. I think he probably can't pitch on back to back nights but could throw two innings every two or three nights and could really take some of the pressure off Moylan and even though he isn't an over powering arm he is plenty exprienced enough and smart enough to get guys out.

[Murphys#1Fan]

Soriano scares me...a lot and here's why. Remember how often injured he was last year and it was frustrating type injuries that there was no reason for or at least they could not be explained medically. Well now...Soriano is in his contract year and he's pitching lights out. Whose to say that last year's Soriano doesn't return with a fat new contract next year.

If this happens...I'd just assume it happen to another team. If we're certain that we're out of this thing the next couple of weeks...then I say...let's trade him as he would be the top closer at the trade deadline. Move Vasquez to the closers role...re sign Hudson and problem solved.

[Andy G.]

Soriano scares me...a lot and here's why. Remember how often injured he was last year and it was frustrating type injuries that there was no reason for or at least they could not be explained medically. Well now...Soriano is in his contract year and he's pitching lights out. Whose to say that last year's Soriano doesn't return with a fat new contract next year.
I have those concerns too. At the same time, though, Soriano's injuries were explained after last season ended. It just didn't get a lot of publicity. He had a nerve problem of some kind in his right elbow. They did surgery in the offseason, and it hasn't bothered him since.

I still have fears that you're right. It's just hard to tell. He doesn't seem like the most motivated guy in the world, that's for sure.

[KB 34]

The case against Soriano seems to start with his injury last season, which was fluky but was real no matter what the team made it seem like for months. It may be furthered by some of his other injury issues the year before that which started when he was among the league leaders in games pitched. I really don't understand the pessimism that tends to surround him. He gets overused and he gets injured, not surprising to me. The doctors are unable to find a real elbow injury and Soriano misses most of a season, blame the doctors not him. I hope other teams forget about him because he's a quality closer and they're not easy to find. The chances are good someone overpays and in that case they can have him. I still say though that his current contract was a great investment and the Braves are so lucky to have him.