So Francoeur's Career is Ending

[Agent-X-]

Whether you agree or disagree, it's pretty hard to ignore his statistics year after year.

http://www.chopnation.com/boards/attachment.php?attachmentid=2&stc=1&d=1244827990

Jeff Francoeur's production is in decline at the young age of 26 and he is definitely not performing at a level that will sustain a spot on an ML team. This brings me to one possible [probable?] conclusion regarding the French Prince. Our "star" right fielder's MLB career is possibly nearing an abrupt end.

And as much as I wish he could be the next David Justice, I've lost hope for him. To add insult to injury, his ignorant remarks about OBP have firmly placed me on the "Let's get rid of Francoeur" bandwagon. Who else is with me on this??

[Agent-X-]

A change of scenery could help Francoeur. If he, maybe, played in Coors Field, it could seriously help his career.

But what stands out the most to me is the steep drop in batting average. He's not being selective and pitchers aren't going to give him a pitch to hit. He'll take advantage of bad pitching, and that's about it.

The ignorance factor is where I just don't see his approach improving. His days with the Braves are probably numbered, but the real question is how much longer he'll last at the ML level. You'd have to think some team out there will be patient with him for more than half a season at his current performance before demoting him or outright releasing him.

Take your pick. I hope he has a college eduction.

[absintheofmalaise]

Career as a Brave. One can only hope.
Career in MLB. I'd say no because there are always teams out there that need that 4th or 5th OF to sit on the bench. All teams need that actually. I'd say that is his destiny. Get used to being a baseball vagabond.

[Agent-X-]

Career as a Brave. One can only hope.
Career in MLB. I'd say no because there are always teams out there that need that 4th or 5th OF to sit on the bench. All teams need that actually. I'd say that is his destiny. Get used to being a baseball vagabond.

While this is true, his defense is not very good. Unless he is a decent pinch-hitter or platoon guy...

[Agent-X-]

You guys are correct. I'm tempted to alter my poll question a bit because I was thinking more along the lines that his career as we know it (as a starting RF) is essentially winding down.

[slowride]

I couldn't disagree more. The guy had one bad season at the plate, and unless i'm mistaken....this season isn't over.

It boggles my mind how quickly Braves fans just want to throw this guy away.

[Agent-X-]

I couldn't disagree more. The guy had one bad season at the plate, and unless i'm mistaken....this season isn't over.

It boggles my mind how quickly Braves fans just want to throw this guy away.

I'm going to assume you've read some of his public statements. That has a little to do with wanting to throw him in a dumpster and forget about him. ;)

Your assessment of one bad season raises the question of how you define bad season. I only see one year where his OPS was .800+ and he only had 274 plate appearances that year. By comparison, he's already had 237 plate appearances this year.

I would argue that he has yet to have a good season, and that his best season was almost average (if not a little below average) for an RF. There's many ways to skin a cat on this topic, but why argue in defense of a guy who, over the past 789 plate appearances, has an OPS below .650.

He shouldn't be starting, and I wouldn't even consider him for the bench unless he can field or hit well in certain situations.

[slowride]

No...I haven't read any of his public statements. Please fill me in.

I think everyone knew with his aggresive batting style and lack of plate discipline he was going to regress. However, he is taking more pitches and his walks are increasing. If he can bat .275 and 20 HRs, with his arm in RF, he's a keeper.

You all need to lay off the haterade.

As is stated....the guy is still young.

[wordslayer©]

I'm drunk on haterade.

he should have been gone years ago. As a matter of fact, he makes a good reason to review the abortion issue again.

I wish I could be cloned so that I could hate him twice as much.

[absintheofmalaise]

I couldn't disagree more. The guy had one bad season at the plate, and unless i'm mistaken....this season isn't over.

It boggles my mind how quickly Braves fans just want to throw this guy away.
Francoeur is the very definition of an average player on his way to becoming the mythical replacement level player. In his one "good" season he created less runs above average than he did in the season he was called up. His OBP is at the most, about 40 points higher than his BA and in his 1.5 seasons when he had a higher than averag BA his BABIP was freakishly high for him which means he was lucky more than good.
Francoeur has never been better than average and except for 1.5 seasons has been below average. What's your definition of a bad season? Mine is being below average.
In his first full season he was 17 runs below average. That's 1.7 games he cost the Braves over what an average RF would contribute to offensively. In his 3rd full season he was 25 runs, or 2.5 games less than average. This year he's already 12 runs below average. If he keeps up this torrid pace he'll be at about 36 runs below average.

[Hobbes]

I'm drunk on haterade.

he should have been gone years ago. As a matter of fact, he makes a good reason to review the abortion issue again.

I wish I could be cloned so that I could hate him twice as much.
So you are advocating an extremely late-term abortion? :p

[slowride]

In his first full season he was 17 runs below average. That's 1.7 games he cost the Braves over what an average RF would contribute to offensively. In his 3rd full season he was 25 runs, or 2.5 games less than average. This year he's already 12 runs below average. If he keeps up this torrid pace he'll be at about 36 runs below average.

Compare those numbers to how many runs he's saved with his arm and I think it mitigates it quite nicely.

[Hobbes]

Compare those numbers to how many runs he's saved with his arm and I think it mitigates it quite nicely.
No, it really doesn't.

I can understand that you still support Francoeur. But if one wants to support him they need to believe that he will eventually exceed the benchmarks he has established to this point, not return to them. Objectively, his career marks are simply not that good.

[Agent-X-]

Where's Dreamscape when we need him. Francoeur has proven him right so far, and Dream made this prediction years ago.

[slowride]

But if one wants to support him they need to believe that he will eventually exceed the benchmarks he has established to this point, not return to them. Objectively, his career marks are simply not that good.

I certainly believe he can, and I don't want to see him do it in a Red Sox uniform.

[Dreamscape]

I'm around.

Is Francoeur's career ending? No. His "potential" will always outweigh the fact that he is a horribly deficient baseball player, at least until six or seven teams have a shot at "turning him around."

I once wrote an article during Francoeur's second or third year comparing him and McCann. The thing that jumps out when you look at their minor league numbers, backed up by looking at their major league numbers is one simple fact. Francoeur is the same exact player he was when he was drafted. No longer can the excuse be that he's "raw." The guy isn't old, but he is a veteran in baseball sense and he's no better than he was as a rookie. Sure, I guess you say there has been marginal improvement here and there, but I'm completely confident that he will remain a below-average outfielder who would not be a starter on a "good" team.

And to compare...I'm more confident of that than I am Kelly Johnson will turn it around this year.

[Andy G.]

Hey slowdrive. I've always been a Francoeur supporter. I'll probably be a fan of his forever, but I can't deny the tremendous lack of production anymore. I said before this year that he'd come back with an .800ish OPS, and that while that's not a big deal, it would be good for the team and good enough to get people off of his back for a while. I also said that if he came back and did the same thing he did last year, I'd admit I was wrong and stop making excuses for him.

I have to face that facts. He might end up having a good career, but it can't be with the Braves. He needs a fresh start, and he needs a competent hitting coach. If he's not traded, I'm sure he'll be non-tendered. Hopefully he becomes a fixture in somebody's lineup and gets a bunch of love from a different city's fans.

[CanadaBravesFan]

Once again, Andy makes a great point. I am a fan of Frenchy, but a big point here is the fact that he has been coached by perhaps the WORST hitting coach in the HISTORY OF BASEBALL. I will put money down that Frenchy and KJ will have better numbers by far once they leave Terry Pendleton.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

His career isn't over. Even if he never improves from where he's at currently he will still be around another 3 or 4 years just because he had so much potential and will float around to a few teams as a reclamation project.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Another idea.. Why don't teams spend much money on hitting and pitching coachs? I would throw the bank at the hitting coach from Texas this offseason. 2 or 3 mil should do it. Sounds like a good investment to me.

[wordslayer©]

First let me say......

I hate Terry Pendleton as much as anyone does. I hated him as a ball player. I hate him as a coach, and if he were a deacon in a church, I'd probably hate him in there, too.

I hate his aggressive approach to hitting. I hate his philosophical style.

HOWEVER, as much as I want to blame our hitting woes on him, intellectually, I doubt there would be much difference if we had anyone else running the show.

Throughout history....on average, $hitty hitters, no matter what team they are on, remain $hitty hitters. Good hitters, no matter which team they are on, remain good hitters. Good hitters hit and bad hitters don't. This is a broad generalization. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.........even with that being said, I would love to see Pendleton gone, because I'd like to see what, if anything, would happen to improve the pile of steaming $hit that makes up the bottom half of our offense.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Yea, I agree this can't ALL be his fault. But that doesn't matter.. If you have someone who isn't getting his message across, or the players are tuning him out, even if who you got to replace him was just on even par with TP, you are likely to see improvements. No matter what you think of him, whatever he is doing, isn' working. Our entire line-up is regressing. Either change tp or change all the hitters under performing. Changing TP is the logical route.

[absintheofmalaise]

Compare those numbers to how many runs he's saved with his arm and I think it mitigates it quite nicely.
Excuse me. You brought it up so I'd like you to let us all know how many runs he's saved with his arm. By all accounts, his defense is not very good. You can use the 2 best defensive metrics out there, UZR and +/- to show us. You can find UZR on fangraphs. You need to subscribe to Dewan's site to get the +/- numbers or you can buy a copy of his revised Fielding Bible.
His UZR numbers will show roughly how any runs he is above average for 150 games. You need to have three years of stats to even make them worthwhile talking about. The numbers they have for this year should be for actual and projected.
I'm not gonna go into how defensive metrics are flawed right now, but there is no way in hell that he's saved enough runs to make up for his suck at the plate. And please remember that we are comparing him to an average RF for both offense, and because of your post, now defense too. So whatever numbers you're able to find, please use them in that context. and don't even bother using numbers from BP. Even they admit that their defensive numbers are very flawed.

One other thing. Francoeur going to the Red Sox is ludicrous. He personifies everything that their offensive philosophy is not. The Sox and the Yankees are two of the most patient teams at the plate in MLB. They believe in working the count and making the pitcher throw as many pitches as possible.

[BigWorm]

The scary thing is that TP is being groomed to take over the head coaching spot, and it will happen sooner than we think.

[absintheofmalaise]

I'll help you out here.
2006 UZR 8.2 UZR/150 7.4
2007 UZR 17.1 UZR/150 16.9
2008 UZR -4.7 UZR/150 -4.9

You do the math.

[Hobbes]

The scary thing is that TP is being groomed to take over the head coaching spot, and it will happen sooner than we think.

I'm still not convinced he is. Just because Bobby likes "his guy", doesn't mean he gets to bequeath his job to a chosen successor.

I've not heard comments from Wren about TP, but I recall conversations with Schuerholz when he was GM that lead me to believe he wasn't all that enamored with the idea of TP as a future manager.

[jamminHANES]

Francoeur has been awful since 2006 began. At least in that season he hit homers. He's turned into a player with no power, no plate discipline, and no speed. He's a glorified singles hitter who does not come anywhere near deserving a spot on our roster and hasn't deserved one for quite some time.

[sdp]

If nothing changes in Atlanta or elsewhere, I think it's a safe bet to say that Francoeur's career is in its twilight. Like Ben said, he's become a singles hitter--he's got 11 XBH's all year. He's sporting a .620 OPS (!), along with a VORP of -7.5 and PMLV (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=PMLV) of -14.5, which are the worst among any Brave who has played this year. If you go by stats like VORP and PMLV, Francoeur is the next-to-worst right fielder in all of baseball (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=473223).

I mean, there are places for guys like this on major league clubs and those places are usually on the pine. He's proving himself to be a "scrub" and scrubs are easily replaceable. Only in Atlanta would he have lasted this long...

I just don't see how he's going to last much longer in professional baseball.

[RiknTN]

It's time for the "golden boy" to move on. Trade him, release him, send him down, whatever. As Joe and Boog said last night, "he has no plan". They did everything they could to just not blantantly call him a dumbass. He has no idea about situational hitting. He just stands there and flails. What he learned over the winter and worked on in the Spring has already completely disappeared. It's time to move on and get a REAL ball player for RF.

And hello to the new board.......:D

[JanShan12]

As Joe and Boog said last night, "he has no plan". They did everything they could to just not blantantly call him a dumbass.

I noticed that too. It was nice to hear someone associated with the Braves say what we've been saying all along. Hopefully Wren gets the message sooner than later and something is done. He looks completely lost at the plate.

How far away from playing in the majors is Jason Heyward?

[Chris_Moderato]

I don't understand Wren's thinking on this. How could possibly be so cutthroat and business-first in his thinking/actions with Glavine and Smoltz, but continue to allow the next-to-worst right fielder in all of baseball trot out there every day.

The Braves handling of Francouer makes them look like they aren't a club that's serious about the product they put on the field.

God help Jeff Francouer. He deserves a lot of the s h ! t he gets from people, but he doesn't deserve all of it. The Braves deserve a big chunk of that grief.

[The Rap]

First of all Frenchy is also in trouble with the brass. Turns out that during the off sesson he sought out the aid of the Texas batting coach and TP was supremely miffed that he blindsided him.

I was always a big defender of Jeff's and admit I blew it. I rememebr an episode on "Cribs" (I think) when they visited the home shared by Frenchy and McCann and the latter kept referring to the former in exalted terms. This helped fuel the image Frenchy had. Obviously turns out to be ironic considering the value of Brian and Jeff.

My opinion is that he is far from finished as a ballplayer simply because there is always some team that figures they will be the one to reap the potential the guy has. But as a Brave he is finished and I would be talking to the White Sox which would be a solid place for him to attempt to straighten out. Jermaine Dye would be perfect for us.

[bravestud]

I don't understand Wren's thinking on this. How could possibly be so cutthroat and business-first in his thinking/actions with Glavine and Smoltz, but continue to allow the next-to-worst right fielder in all of baseball trot out there every day.

The Braves handling of Francouer makes them look like they aren't a club that's serious about the product they put on the field.

God help Jeff Francouer. He deserves a lot of the s h ! t he gets from people, but he doesn't deserve all of it. The Braves deserve a big chunk of that grief.
I think Wren would get rid of Francoeur yesterday if he had a good fallback option. There's just very little major league-ready depth in right field in the organization. I would go with Brandon Jones, although the Braves' brass seems to have soured on him and he wouldn't be anything more than a stopgap anyway.

Jason Heyward can't make it up soon enough.

[sdp]

Francouer reminds me a lot of Chris Singleton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/singlch01.shtml), for some reason.

[wordslayer©]

I don't understand Wren's thinking on this. How could possibly be so cutthroat and business-first in his thinking/actions with Glavine and Smoltz, but continue to allow the next-to-worst right fielder in all of baseball trot out there every day.

The Braves handling of Francouer makes them look like they aren't a club that's serious about the product they put on the field.

God help Jeff Francouer. He deserves a lot of the s h ! t he gets from people, but he doesn't deserve all of it. The Braves deserve a big chunk of that grief.

Good post

That's the beauty of Francoeur.

I've hated a lot of players over the past few years that we've had. I hated Brian Jordan, Rafael Belliard, HoRam, and Hampton. I would be irritated that Cox would play them like he did.

But the thing was.......I hated the players.

This is where Francoeur brought it to a new level. He did for me what no braves player has ever done to me.

Francouer made me hate Cox. He made me hate the front office. He made me hate the atlanta media. He made me hate ball players from Georgia. He made me hate the atlanta fans that supported him. He produced hate that resonated far from the confines of a ball park.

is this Francoeurs fault? Of course it is, because he sucked. But the reality is, the hate should be directed at those who didn't have the balls to remove him from the lineup.

Many astute baseball people knew that Francoeur was never as good as he was. There were many people, early on, who were saying that he could not sustain what he was doing. Can you blame the atlanta front office for not recognizing this and not doing something when something could have been done? Probably. But let's say you give them a pass on that.

What you can't forgive them for is just to keep allowing him to go on and on and on like he has. That's what I will never understand. There came a point to cut the losses, but they just couldn't do it, because he was their little darling.

I really feel they sacrificed winning because of local boy hysteria that they were afraid would be created. I've never, in all the years that I've watched baseball, have seen a player given as many breaks as he has been given. He has never been held accountable for being non-productive. And honestly, his $hitty play has been rewarded by giving him more at bats than most players on the team get.

I have hope that it's almost over. I have hope that the atlanta front office, along with Cox, have learned something from all this.

For the most part, I like the trades that Wren has done, and I like the potential trades that he hasn't done. But someone should be held accountable for the Francoeur/outfield fiasco.

[-Dr. Brave-]

Good post

That's the beauty of Francoeur.

I've hated a lot of players over the past few years that we've had. I hated Brian Jordan, Rafael Belliard, HoRam, and Hampton. I would be irritated that Cox would play them like he did.

But the thing was.......I hated the players.

This is where Francoeur brought it to a new level. He did for me what no braves player has ever done to me.

Francouer made me hate Cox. He made me hate the front office. He made me hate the atlanta media. He made me hate ball players from Georgia. He made me hate the atlanta fans that supported him. He produced hate that resonated far from the confines of a ball park.

is this Francoeurs fault? Of course it is, because he sucked. But the reality is, the hate should be directed at those who didn't have the balls to remove him from the lineup.

Many astute baseball people knew that Francoeur was never as good as he was. There were many people, early on, who were saying that he could not sustain what he was doing. Can you blame the atlanta front office for not recognizing this and not doing something when something could have been done? Probably. But let's say you give them a pass on that.

What you can't forgive them for is just to keep allowing him to go on and on and on like he has. That's what I will never understand. There came a point to cut the losses, but they just couldn't do it, because he was their little darling.

I really feel they sacrificed winning because of local boy hysteria that they were afraid would be created. I've never, in all the years that I've watched baseball, have seen a player given as many breaks as he has been given. He has never been held accountable for being non-productive. And honestly, his $hitty play has been rewarded by giving him more at bats than most players on the team get.

I have hope that it's almost over. I have hope that the atlanta front office, along with Cox, have learned something from all this.

For the most part, I like the trades that Wren has done, and I like the potential trades that he hasn't done. But someone should be held accountable for the Francoeur/outfield fiasco.


So are you saying that Francoeur sucks?

[Andy G.]

Francouer made me hate Cox. He made me hate the front office. He made me hate the atlanta media. He made me hate ball players from Georgia. He made me hate the atlanta fans that supported him. He produced hate that resonated far from the confines of a ball park.
You hate me? :(

[wordslayer©]

You hate me? :(

LOL...you tard

One thing I like about you is this, Gilley. You hang in with a player you like as much as anyone I've ever seen. During the HoRam era, you stood next to him when he was just getting lambasted, and I know it's not easy to do that when everyone is trouncing on him.

I had a real love for Kyle Davies, and not because he had glowing stats. I just liked him. I wanted him to do well, and I believed he would do well. When he would go out and get rocked, I was still in his corner pulling for his next start, because I just knew, in his next start, he would turn the corner. Of course, the piece of $hit broke my heart and never did, but you get the point.

It's like this....I've hated some players when they were performing well, but I remained true to my heart, and I have felt the heat of bashing a bad player that was performing well, so I know it isn't easy to stay true to your convictions.

I like it when people ride their favorites. I like it when people remain true to the players they don't like. Like RIB....she hates Chipper, and even on his best night, she is still there to lay down the smack on why she hates him.

Players should move you....either through their love for them or their hate of them. If they don't do that, then there is no emotional response to the games.

[slowride]

Excuse me. You brought it up so I'd like you to let us all know how many runs he's saved with his arm. By all accounts, his defense is not very good. You can use the 2 best defensive metrics out there, UZR and +/- to show us. You can find UZR on fangraphs. You need to subscribe to Dewan's site to get the +/- numbers or you can buy a copy of his revised Fielding Bible.
His UZR numbers will show roughly how any runs he is above average for 150 games. You need to have three years of stats to even make them worthwhile talking about. The numbers they have for this year should be for actual and projected.
I'm not gonna go into how defensive metrics are flawed right now, but there is no way in hell that he's saved enough runs to make up for his suck at the plate. And please remember that we are comparing him to an average RF for both offense, and because of your post, now defense too. So whatever numbers you're able to find, please use them in that context. and don't even bother using numbers from BP. Even they admit that their defensive numbers are very flawed.

Woah....no need to say excuse me here. I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

I have zero, I'll repeat, ZERO stats on how many runs he has saved. Because it's pretty impossible to measure. How many runners hold up on third simply because of the guy fielding the ball in right? Don't know. But I know it happens. I know there are times they would normally go if not for Frenchy.

I'm just going off the eyeball test and gut check.

Someone here said we should get Dye? lol.....God help us if we're saying that about Frenchy 8 years from now.

If you don't like my opinion on the guy that's all well and good. Obviously, almost no one here does.

I am a Francoeur fan. *ducks*

[absintheofmalaise]

Actually you can look up those stats. I forget which site has them, but they are listed as holds and kills.
You didn't ruffle my feathers. What you did do was make a statement that you wanted us to take as the truth without anything to back it up. That's all. If you're gonna say something that can be measured, you need to post the measurements.

[Dreamscape]

Ah, the eye vs. the numbers. They meet again in a grueling battle to the death.

There is a trade-off to the arm argument and that is Francoeur's range. While his athletic ability will continue to be raved about, his baseball instincts and baseball IQ are valid areas of criticism. Francoeur remains considerably below-average in picking up the ball. I know the numbers, but ignoring them for a second, just watch the guy. I mean, really watch him. He takes awful angles. He won a Gold Glove completely on the fact he has a strong and accurate arm. Defensively, its his only saving grace. With better range, we can talk about Francoeur saving runs. But until then, any runs he "saved" have been given up by hits and extra bases runners should not have had to begin with if the right fielder for the Atlanta Braves had league average range for the position.

And I know for the last few years, the Braves defensive shifts (and the Braves use them more than most teams) have been wrecked by bad pitching. But Francoeur's struggles with range have not gone away this year. His glaring weakness is most noticable when he doesn't have a rangy center fielder. Andruw saved him like Jordan Schafer saved him and even Gregor Blanco. But Mark Kotsay and now, Nate McLouth?

Yes, stats guys overrate defense and it's hard to quantify defense...but man, this outfield scares me defensively almost as much as it does offensively.

[slowride]

Actually you can look up those stats. I forget which site has them, but they are listed as holds and kills.
You didn't ruffle my feathers. What you did do was make a statement that you wanted us to take as the truth without anything to back it up. That's all. If you're gonna say something that can be measured, you need to post the measurements.

Nor do I. Although, nor would I trust the accuracy of the holds stat.

I stated an opinion. Something which I thought was obvious. I was obviously wrong. You can take my opinion for what it's worth. Simply my opinion.

[Devil Wears Prado]

So we can't release him... there'll be a cap hit, correct? We can't bring him down to the minors... because he can just reject to do so right? I'm no baseball expert, but we're pretty much stuck with Francouer unless we can trade him for a liter of soda and a bag of chips.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

So we can't release him... there'll be a cap hit, correct? We can't bring him down to the minors... because he can just reject to do so right? I'm no baseball expert, but we're pretty much stuck with Francouer unless we can trade him for a liter of soda and a bag of chips.

It's supposed to be "a liter of cola"

[Lauren T.]

So we can't release him... there'll be a cap hit, correct? We can't bring him down to the minors... because he can just reject to do so right? I'm no baseball expert, but we're pretty much stuck with Francouer unless we can trade him for a liter of soda and a bag of chips.It's supposed to be "a liter of cola"
In Atlanta, it should probably be "a liter of Coke". ;)

I love Francoeur as a person, because he's so nice and funny and friendly. As a ballplayer, he's certainly not my favorite out there. ...Let me take that back. I love to watch him run like an ADHD Muppet. Do I think he's going to help the Braves win? No.

[ScooterBrave]

I'm drunk on haterade.

he should have been gone years ago. As a matter of fact, he makes a good reason to review the abortion issue again.

I wish I could be cloned so that I could hate him twice as much.
LOL! Oh, how I miss you when you are gone!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

If Fransewer is lucky, he'll have a career like ol' Gabe What's-His-Name who usually surfaces at some point during the season in Boston or with some other AL team. Talent level somewhere between AAAA and fourth outfielder. Too bad his performance doesn't match his desire...

[KB 34]

I'm convined he has really good talent but a messed up head to go along with it. That combination maxes out at acceptable 5th outfielder which is where he's at right now. In modern baseball that puts him in AAA waiting for an injury so he can play 4th outfielder for a while. The good news for him is the talent is there and he's young enough to turn it around. The bad news is the Braves aren't willing and are unable to help him turn it around and as he gets older and more set in his ways it'll just get harder to change.

[Dreamscape]

How bad has it got for Francoeur?

Even the AJC is supporting a trade (http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/printedition/2009/06/15/bradley0615.html?cxntlid=inform_artr).

I would hate it if Francoeur played elsewhere. I’ve known him since he was a junior at Parkview —- he remains the greatest high school football player I’ve seen in 25 years at the AJC —- and he’s a fine fellow who tries to accommodate everyone. But I’d hate it more to see this psychodrama drag into August and beyond.

It’s time for both sides to cut their losses. It’s time to trade Frenchy.

What could the Braves get for him? Probably not all that much, but that’s not really the point. They’d be better off without him, and he without them. He could slip into another uniform and be someone other than the homegrown Golden Child. He could relax. He could just go play ball again, as opposed to feeling compelled to sign every autograph and pose for every picture.

This is not the AJC I have come to know and loathe. What's next, should they fire (http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/06/15/the-cubs-fire-their-hitting-coach-should-the-braves/?cxntlid=sldr) Terry Pendleton?

[wordslayer©]

this is the type of commentary on him that has driven me nuts for the past four years:

I’ve known him since he was a junior at Parkview —- he remains the greatest high school football player I’ve seen in 25 years at the AJC —- and he’s a fine fellow who tries to accommodate everyone.

What the hell difference does any of this make? Who gives a rat's a$$ if he was the greatest high school football player that the world has ever seen?

Maybe, before long, he can hone his skills and be the best solitaire player that the world has ever seen.

I never, ever want to see another homegrown ballplayer on the team again.

[bravos4evr]

What about McCann? He seems to have turned out okay!

[Chris_Moderato]

I don't give a crap if they're homegrown or come from Botswana...I just want them to be Major League-ready players if they're wearing the uniform.

[hoosjon]

I am a Francoeur fan.

So was I. Was.

Honestly, Frenchy is the victim of the hype machine. SI cover ... golden boy his first year, we all ignored his free-swinging ways as "rookie mistakes" that he'd correct with time. Instead of straightening that out, Terry Pendleton has the whole team doing it. Even Chipper said yesterday that his brain is saying opposite field, contact hit, and his body is pulling the ball. TP has some sort of mind-control going!

[absintheofmalaise]

http://i43.tinypic.com/2u9ib2r.jpg

[quick]

So was I. Was.

Honestly, Frenchy is the victim of the hype machine. SI cover ... golden boy his first year, we all ignored his free-swinging ways as "rookie mistakes" that he'd correct with time. Instead of straightening that out, Terry Pendleton has the whole team doing it. Even Chipper said yesterday that his brain is saying opposite field, contact hit, and his body is pulling the ball. TP has some sort of mind-control going!

The best teams today seem to be SABRmetrics teams. The Braves clearly are not. Not in player evaluation, not in approach at the plate. We are old school, to all appearances. We do not win any more, and likely would have won more during our "run" if we had adopted some of the newer stats-driven techniques.

I can understand the Braves' reluctance to part with Francoeur for PR reasons, but , frankly, we should, and we should not have signed Chipper to the extension, either, as his power is gone and he gets hurt too often. Perhaps the extension also is an indication of a lack of depth at third in the farm system, but as much as I like Chipper, he has reached DH level. Heck, with his lack of power and dislike of the role, perhaps he is not even good DH material.

Today, we have more objective tools to evaluate players and to tell us how to bat. The Braves need to use these tools as a key (though not the only) component of its approach. All one needs to do is look at the resurrection of the Red Sox in recent years to know it works.

[absintheofmalaise]

The RS approach works because they combine both metrics and scouting. You can't rely too heavily on either discipline. They have also instituted some programs to keep their players as healthy as possible. This is especially true with their pitchers. One thing that Penny has talked about is how their shoulder program is light years ahead of anything he's ever heard of.

[wordslayer©]

The best teams today seem to be SABRmetrics teams. The Braves clearly are not. Not in player evaluation, not in approach at the plate. We are old school, to all appearances. We do not win any more, and likely would have won more during our "run" if we had adopted some of the newer stats-driven techniques.

I can understand the Braves' reluctance to part with Francoeur for PR reasons, but , frankly, we should, and we should not have signed Chipper to the extension, either, as his power is gone and he gets hurt too often. Perhaps the extension also is an indication of a lack of depth at third in the farm system, but as much as I like Chipper, he has reached DH level. Heck, with his lack of power and dislike of the role, perhaps he is not even good DH material.

Today, we have more objective tools to evaluate players and to tell us how to bat. The Braves need to use these tools as a key (though not the only) component of its approach. All one needs to do is look at the resurrection of the Red Sox in recent years to know it works.

Thank you!

I've just stickied your post and have put it in our hall of fame section.

[hoosjon]

we should not have signed Chipper to the extension, either, as his power is gone and he gets hurt too often. Perhaps the extension also is an indication of a lack of depth at third in the farm system, but as much as I like Chipper, he has reached DH level. Heck, with his lack of power and dislike of the role, perhaps he is not even good DH material.

Not sure I can fully agree with this. Sure he's always gotten hurt a lot, but he WAS the batting champion last year. His defense has been pretty nasty this year and he's struggled, but it's also late June, plenty of time to raise his average with a healthier toe. Plus, he one of the two best hitters on the ballclub. I just hope we don't have a Glavine/Smoltz-style problem AFTER the contract runs out, with Chip wanting just one more year. By that point, I believe he will be a liability.

[Lauren T.]

I just hope we don't have a Glavine/Smoltz-style problem AFTER the contract runs out, with Chip wanting just one more year. By that point, I believe he will be a liability.
I have a feeling he'll be a liability sooner than that. His bimonthly injuries are going to start multiplying one of these days...

[quick]

Not sure I can fully agree with this. Sure he's always gotten hurt a lot, but he WAS the batting champion last year. His defense has been pretty nasty this year and he's struggled, but it's also late June, plenty of time to raise his average with a healthier toe. Plus, he one of the two best hitters on the ballclub. I just hope we don't have a Glavine/Smoltz-style problem AFTER the contract runs out, with Chip wanting just one more year. By that point, I believe he will be a liability.

I understand. When you look at Chipper's numbers on our team, he is the second best hitter behind McCann, and we don't have much hitting. But, here are a few key stats:

Chipper has the 10th highest 2009 VORP for all third basemen in baseball. These players are all higher: Wright, Longoria, Sandoval, Rolen, Young (Tex), Zimmerman, Figgins, Reynolds, and Inge. He'd be behind Pay-Roid, too, if the Roidster were having a normal Roidster year.

Chippers VORP in the last five years was 1st in 2008; 3d in 2007; 4th in 2006; 4th in 2005. So, he is slipping, at least a little. Plus, his 2008 year was great because of his average, and he had a good .574 SLG. But, he hasn't hit more than 30 homers since 2004. Chipper either has chosen to become a gap hitter, or cannot hit homers like he used to. This is not all bad, of course, but we need someone on our team who is a big power threat and 3b is a big power position.

Chipper's Slugging in 2009 is .480, the lowest total he's ever had but for 1995 (.450) and 1997 (.479). His OBP is good, about his average, at .404, and we know he is getting walked intentionally and is not getting good balls to hit as often as he might on a better team.

In terms of games played, he hasn't played more than 137 games in any season since 2003, and that is a mystery stat, as we all know he has toughed it out and played in games where he should have been sitting, and as a result he hasn't been very effective at times.

Now, I do not know how much it would cost to find a replacement with a better 2009 VORP. We don't have any stud 3d basemen on the farm that I know of, and Chipper usually gives us a hometown discount. But, I just cannot see him playing 137 games annually over the life of this new contract where for each of those games he is 100 percent. My guess is he plays with injuries serious enough to affect his performance for at least 30-40 games each year even to get to 137. He is probably a 90-100 game guy. Plus, will his VORP continue at or around the 10 best in baseball or better for the life of this contract? Plus, he cannot run like he used to, and we probably don't want him to run much for fear of a blowout. Plus, he's now committed as many errors as he did all of last year and he is about on pace to break his record for most errors.

Don't get me wrong--Chipper is a great player, a likely Hall of Famer. And our team simply has very few good hitters, and he right now is our second best. But, for a team that has limited funds and lots of holes, at least on offense, I am not sure making Infante your full time 3d baseman and using Chipper's money to get some better position players was not the way to go.

Time will tell. I certainly wish him the best, regardless. He is one of our few offensive bright spots in 2009.

[Hobbes]

Given that Chipper has a contract and full no-trade rights, the point is fairly moot. Discussing the idea of trading Chipper is a pointless exercise. Accept him as a given and make decisions accordingly.

[IkeWagner]

Given that Chipper has a contract and full no-trade rights, the point is fairly moot. Discussing the idea of trading Chipper is a pointless exercise. Accept him as a given and make decisions accordingly.

The point is Moo also (we must include in the new forum a few tired jokes from the old)

[quick]

Given that Chipper has a contract and full no-trade rights, the point is fairly moot. Discussing the idea of trading Chipper is a pointless exercise. Accept him as a given and make decisions accordingly.

No one is suggesting we trade Chipper or that he could be traded. We were just discussing the wisdom of extending his contract before this season and whether it would have been prudent to do something else with the money using SABRmetric concepts and allowing his contract to expire.

[hoosjon]

The point is Moo also (we must include in the new forum a few tired jokes from the old)

3

[quick]

3

Where is Chik-fil-A when you need it? ;)

[Andy G.]

Plus, will his VORP continue at or around the 10 best in baseball or better for the life of this contract?
It absolutely will be better. He's been in a rare slump lately. Let him get out of it and bring his numbers up before you start talking about how his VORP compares to other thirdbaseman. It's only June 30th.

Don't get me wrong--Chipper is a great player, a likely Hall of Famer....
He's a no doubt Hall of Famer. If he's not in on the first ballot, it'll be a mistake.