Official Atlanta Braves Trade Rumors Thread

[bravos4evr]

I figured we needed one of these for the new boards and I'll even add one of my own that was briefly mentioned on the old boards!

There was an article suggesting the Royals make a run at Frenchy.

http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/2009/06/radical-situations-call-for-radical.html

A man can dream can't he?!:)

[BraveFan]

unless teams have Helen Keller scouting Francoeur I doubt we can trade him.

[Agent-X-]

unless teams have Helen Keller scouting Francoeur I doubt we can trade him.

But he's a superstar! Any team should feel excited to have him in their ballpark. Think of all the revenue he generates!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, if Atlanta can trade him and get similar production out of one of our outfield prospects, I'd look to get pitching in return for Frenchy.

[luvdembravos]

unless teams have Helen Keller scouting Francoeur I doubt we can trade him.

...or take an interested GM out for a night on the town; get him really, really drunk; and convince him that Frenchy also can be transformed into a Jermaine Dye type player.

[Agent-X-]

I said a week or so back that our only chance may be to ship Francoeur to the Royals because he was one of Dayton Moore's guys. I also mentioned Guillen...but went on to shy away from it because....well, he's Jose Guillen.

To the Royals for a mid-range relieving prospect... or end up releasing him.

I'm not totally sure how it works in baseball. Would the Braves save any money at this point by releasing Francoeur?? Or is his salary guaranteed for this season?

[BigWorm]

I still think the Braves might trade Francoeur, but the acquisition of McLouth somewhat lessens the urgency. Don't look for any moves involving Frenchy soon.

[nuke_laloosh]

I still think the Braves might trade Francoeur, but the acquisition of McLouth somewhat lessens the urgency. Don't look for any moves involving Frenchy soon.

It depends on how you look at it. IF (big if) the Braves think they have a shot at getting into the playoffs this year, then the sense of urgency should become bigger. Because right now, they are only one bat away from being contenders this year. Wait too much longer and the gap between them and the playoff contending teams will become too big to overcome.

But, if they are already looking at 2010, then the urgency to trade has lessen.

[KB 34]

But he's a superstar! Any team should feel excited to have him in their ballpark. Think of all the revenue he generates!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, if Atlanta can trade him and get similar production out of one of our outfield prospects, I'd look to get pitching in return for Frenchy.
Brandon Jones, Blanco, and Prado are far better then that useless bum. The key to trading him is not getting a worse contract back.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

As much as Frenchy has pissed me off, I honestly wish we wouldn't trade him, since we won't get poo for him anyway. I wish Bobby would man-up and send him down to AAA for the rest of the season, and give him a final chance to grow up and take some coaching and make some real changes. If he does, great, loads of talent, we could use him, if not, then you can still trade him for spare parts. I think it's worth the monetary risks given that his stock can't really go any lower.

[KB 34]

To me there are several problems with sending Francoeur down. First is the fact that he would throw a complete fit and I don't think it's fair for the coaches there to deal with it. Furthermore it's a huge distraction for both teams when it would happen. Secondly he's in the midst of arbitration and making a lot of money. Do you risk him getting $7 million in arbitration next year if the arbitrator is a complete moron? Why wouldn't Francoeur demand a ridiculous amount of money again? He thinks he's the greatest thing to happen to the team. I say it's time to move on because the Braves have mishandled him and he's been an idiot. It's best for the team.

[Dreamscape]

Well, I don't think that's reasonable at all, KB. Hyperbole is a touchy, touchy thing. No, Francoeur won't be getting $7M in arbitration next year. The first year of arbitration is typically the big rise in salary and depends a lot on three years of stats while the second is far more dependent on the last. I could see him getting past a paycut (I think a player can get 20% less than what he made the previous year in arbitration), but he's certainly not going to double his salary. He will be fortunate to get a modest raise.

But if it has gotten to that point with little improvement, the Braves will have to non-tender him. Eventually, even Atlanta fans grow tired of a lack of production when it goes two years long. They will try to deal him, but I doubt they will get a package worthwhile that doesn't include taking salary in return.

[sdp]

Put it this way, the Braves won't be going to arbitration with Francoeur next year. If things don't change with his on-field performance, and I don't have any reason to suspect that they will, Francoeur will either be traded or non-tendered.

Francoeur's salary request of nearly $4MM was equivalent to a sailor trying to get the most of the treasure off the ship before it sinks. The Braves will have no part of an outfielder making ~$4MM while posting an OPS that approaches Rafael Belliard territory.

[bravos4evr]

I would be happy to trade him for a crafty veteran right handed relief arm.... that's how much I'm sick of him! even if we eat his entire remaining salary this year! ( and I will write a check for $50 if I have to...even if I don't have it!!!)

Honestly, I would love to move him for Penny right now , I really wish we could do a swap like that and use Penny as either a relief arm or flip him in a deal for a right handed OF bat. Maybe Schafer can get it together, we can move Mclouth to LF and use Penny, Jo Jo and ptbnl for Dye or something..... we'd only gain like $5 mill in payroll!

mclouth
Escobar
Chipper
Dye
McCann
Kotchman
KJ
Schafer

that looks much better to me !

[bravos4evr]

I'm not convinced about the payroll thingy BFH. I've heard it before and then ...poof, here comes a trade.

Now Nelson Cruz and a prospect to Braves, Vazquez to Rangers, Frenchy and said prospect to Boston for Penny( who goes to the pen). Medlen to rotation!!

Problem solved!

I know this is retarded, but man alive I am sick of watching him stink this bad for my team. I don't care if he goes on to become a .900 OPS threat ( LMAO!!!!!! HAHAHAHA) I want him to do it somewhere else!!!!

[bravos4evr]

or, we just put Canizares on first and use Kotchman and an arm as bait to land ourselves a slugging OF'er!

[-Dr. Brave-]

Nelson Cruz and a prospect to Braves, Vazquez to Rangers, Frenchy and said prospect to Boston for Penny (who goes to the pen). Medlen to rotation!!


These Brad Penny rumors don't make sense. If the Braves needed a starter (which they don't), they could have just kept Tom Glavine or kept Kris Medlen in the rotation. GMs know they can't make a trade that forces them to make another. Not worth the risk.

Please, no Brad Penny. Teams would just nickel and dime him to death.

I'd rather resign Tom Glavine than trade for Brad Penny. I'd rather convert Francoeur into a pitcher than trade for Brad Penny. I'd rather make Jordan Schafer hit right-handed than Trade for Brad Penny.

[sdp]

Nelson Cruz is tearing up the baseball while the Rangers are nine-over and in first place in the AL West. They just lost Josh Hamilton for over a month to some surgery and so they've really got ZERO motivation to trade Cruz at this point in time.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

This is not the ideal situation... but If the Braves decided they must have another bat and plan to move Vazquez for a bat in order to make room for Hudson in mid-late August...With the Brewers need of another starter and the chances to potentially get offensive help else where...Do you think the Braves would attempt to deal Vazquez to Mil in a deal for Mike Cameron? Once again this isn't something I'd do, but an Idea I thought should be thrown out there because of the similar salaries owed in 2009 and it being somewhat out of the blue...You could shift McLouth to Right and move Jeff in another move for a reliever or prospect...

[bravos4evr]

Nelson Cruz is tearing up the baseball while the Rangers are nine-over and in first place in the AL West. They just lost Josh Hamilton for over a month to some surgery and so they've really got ZERO motivation to trade Cruz at this point in time.

I didn't know about Hamilton, I don't keep up with the AL very much at all.

[slowride]

All of this Frenchy trade talk worries me. Personally, I love the guy. I'm not blind, I see his on the field struggles.

But, you can't deny the defense. He had an outstanding rookie season, a very solid sophmore season, a piss poor junior season, and...going with the trend, has improved so far during his senior season compared to his junior season.

His stock won't be getting any lower. I don't want to see him.

chalk it up to mancrush maybe, but I have faith in the guy.

[IkeWagner]

All of this Frenchy trade talk worries me. Personally, I love the guy. I'm not blind, I see his on the field struggles.

But, you can't deny the defense. He had an outstanding rookie season, a very solid sophmore season, a piss poor junior season, and...going with the trend, has improved so far during his senior season compared to his junior season.

His stock won't be getting any lower. I don't want to see him.

chalk it up to mancrush maybe, but I have faith in the guy.

Prepare thyself...

[bravos4evr]

His defense is average. He takes poor angles and gets bad jumps, he turns the average into the sublime. Don't be fooled by dramatic catches.

His bat is so bad that he would have to be Willy Mays in RF to make up for it.

I would trade him for Rick Camp!

[Andy G.]

All of this Frenchy trade talk worries me. Personally, I love the guy. I'm not blind, I see his on the field struggles.

But, you can't deny the defense. He had an outstanding rookie season, a very solid sophmore season, a piss poor junior season, and...going with the trend, has improved so far during his senior season compared to his junior season.

His stock won't be getting any lower. I don't want to see him.

chalk it up to mancrush maybe, but I have faith in the guy.
slowride is not the poster formerly known as gilley22. Just to avoid any confusion.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

His defense is average. He takes poor angles and gets bad jumps, he turns the average into the sublime. Don't be fooled by dramatic catches.

His bat is so bad that he would have to be Willy Mays in RF to make up for it.

I would trade him for Rick Camp!


Couldn't have said it better...The only think Jeff gives us is a strong Arm in RF, and I'm sure we can find a guy who has a good enough arm with a whole lot more useful with the bat...

[slowride]

*sips from personalized Braves coffee mug which includes Francoeur*

Your attempts to avoid confusion have resulted in the confusion of slowride. I hope you can live with yourself.

[Andy G.]

*sips from personalized Braves coffee mug which includes Francoeur*

Your attempts to avoid confusion have resulted in the confusion of slowride. I hope you can live with yourself.
:D

At the old boards my username was gilley22. I'm a big defender of Francoeur. I like him too. I was just joking because before, I was pretty much the only one who cared to post anything in Frenchy's defense.

Glad you're not lurking anymore.

[IkeWagner]

I would trade him for Rick Camp!

I'd trade him for a crusty sock.

[Hobbes]

I'd trade him for a crusty sock.
Nah, his arm makes him worth a clean sock.

[bravos4evr]

He and Rick Camp share one trait! They are both milking one dramatic home run for their entire career!!!

[IkeWagner]

An often overlooked annoying fact about Francoeur is that he never gets hurt. He's constantly leading the team in ABs, and that is just wrong.

[bravos4evr]

well, Chipper gets hurt a lot and still stomps Frenchy into the ground. I'd take 120 games fo Chipper over 162 of Francpoor any season!

[Lauren T.]

Nah, his arm makes him worth a clean sock.

I have a clean sock that supposedly once belonged to Javy Lopez. I will trade you that for Jeff Francoeur. I could use a houseboy.

[Dreamscape]

On Penny, there is this (http://www2.nesn.com/boston-red-sox/2009/06/07/report-phillies-in-braves-out-of-penny-trade-talks/) from NESN...

Meanwhile, another NL East team has reported to have no interest in the big righty. Braves GM Frank Wren told ajc.com that Atlanta, whose starters have the fifth best ERA in the National League, isn’t interested.

“There is no validity to that,” Wren said. “That has not even been discussed.”

I really hope there isn't. While I would like to trade Francoeur, I'd rather if we had to take a major leaguer back, it wouldn't be one that sucks as much and will almost certainly be used too much like Penny.

[IkeWagner]

Penny's numbers aren't good, but I think he'd be a nice addition to any team that needed another starter. He's only a few years removed from being quite dominant (and he seems to still have the stuff), and moving back to the NL (I'm assuming an NL team will nab him) will only help. If the Phillies or Mets get him, I won't really be too happy about it to be honest. He's the type of pitcher that shuts us down.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

If Wren intended to trade Penny before he made a start with us then by all means trade Jeff for Penny...

[chocolatesquirrel]

Everyone seems to have their own idea as to what the Braves need. In my opinion, with McLouth we're okay on bats. What we need is bullpen help. Our bullpen is lousy. Medlen certainly looks like he might be good out of the pen after last night. I'd rather see Bobby bring him in than trotting out Moylan or Bennett, who both about give me a heart attack everytime they pitch. I'd also like to see Soriano get the closer's job over Gonzalez. Mike needs to get better command of his pitches before he's given the job back, if at all.

[bravos4evr]

I completely disagree about the bats! Frenchy is a black hole in LF and G Anderson is a singles hitter with limited range and not much arm. We need to grab AT LEAST one more OF bat and then put Diaz and or Brandon Jones in the other spot. GA needs to be relegated to the bench or DFA'd. Frenchy needs to be traded for anything we can get.

ideal lineup

Mclouth
Escobar
Chipper
Mccann
new guy
new guy/B Jones/Kotchman
Kotchman/new guy/B Jones
KJ


see doesn't new guy seem so much more hopeful?

as far as the pen is concerned, I think we need to start giving medlen the 7th and continue to swap out soriano and Gonzalez in the 8th and 9th ( maybe do the same in the 7th with medlen and moylan) bennett should get the mopup role , O'flaherty stays the LOOGY. Acosta can be a situational one out ROOGY as far as I'm concerned!

[KB 34]

An often overlooked annoying fact about Francoeur is that he never gets hurt. He's constantly leading the team in ABs, and that is just wrong.
The biggest factor is he's exempt from platoons no matter how he performs. Most players on this team find themselves in platoons at some point even if they're temporary, he does not. It also took several years for him to be rested, also a result of being a special child.


On the trade front,
I really like Vazquez and feel he's an important piece to the puzzle. However, Lowe isn't going to be traded, Kawakami has no value, and Francoeur has no value. In terms of freeing up money Vazquez is the only option as the Braves need Soriano desperately anyhow. As much as I want Vazquez kept around the only chance to compete this season I see is to move him in deals that turn him into multiple cheaper players. That said even that wouldn't guarantee anything and I don't think I'd support doing it. Better to go for the future with this group.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

However, we do need another bat. While we have a nice core of Chipper, McCann, Yunel and McLouth, the rest of our lineup is generally below average pending Kelly Johnson who can be either of really good or really bad. That said, there will be nights where our top 2 of our top 4 hitters will be shut down, allowing opposing pitching staffs to pitch around the other two. Having a 5th guy you can depend on and retain in 2010 will go a long way towards not only make us a legitimate contender (my opinion is that we aren't now, of course) but set us up well for next year as well.


Not to mention of our 4 good bats, 2 of them (McCann and Chipper) miss quite a few games, and when they're out we've STILL got a triple A offense even with McLouth.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I really want a big power-bat, RBI machine. If we can't get that, then I don't want to spend any more prospects. I don't think we should bother unless we're going to see a big improvement. Having said that, we still got a long time before Heyward or Johnson (big If on Johnson) provide a Big-Time solution in the outfield. Freeman is awhile off at 1st too. We need a power bat at LF/RF/1b to bridge that gap. Other than that I say keep the kids and see what happens.

[chocolatesquirrel]

Let me rephrase what I said earlier. When I said I thought we were okay on bats, I meant that if the bullpen can hold a lead when we get one, then I think we'd be okay if management doesn't get another bat. Ideally, yes, I would want another good bat in the lineup. But I don't want to trade any quality players or prospects to get a bat unless it is an actual impact player, and I'm talking about Adam Dunn type impact, otherwise I'd prefer getting a quality arm in the pen rather than a mediocre bat. We got plenty of those.

[KB 34]

I'd like to see the Braves grab a mediocre bat seeing there are two dreadful ones starting in the outfield still. A big bat would be nice but also rather difficult to acquire. I'm a little suspect about the Braves outfielding prospects in terms of helping out really soon. At this point the Braves really need to make a second move and get a second outfielder. For the bullpen the key is getting someone signed past this season with Soriano and Gonzalez hitting the free agent market. I have no clue what will happen there although the best case scenario has to be to keep one of them. Is Moylan the closer next year with Medlen and Acosta setting him up? That really scares me and I'd like to see it improved now.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Here's an idea I haven't heard yet I thought I would throw out there.


Felipe Lopez #2 2B

BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.295 4 11 .351 .423

He makes 3.5 mil this season. Which is about 125k more than Frenchy....
We could put him at leadoff , slot in Yunel behind him, Chip in the 3 hole, Mclouth at clean-up and then McCann in the 5 spot. With Kotch at 6, KJ at 7 playing a corner spot, and Diaz the other at 8.... That actually doesn't seem too bad at all. We could probably do it without giving up alot too. What do you guys think?

[BraveFan]

I'm stuck on if we should trade Vazquez or not, on one hand I don't see the Braves winning w/ Vazquez unless we get a big bat or two bats but on the other hand I don't like having both Medlen and Hanson in the rotation and we don't know what Hudson can do when he is back. Trading for an expensive bat that can make a huge impact will aquire Vazquez b/c the Braves salary can't afford to take on a huge contract w/o dropping one. I want Dye b/c I think he can make the biggest impact and put the Braves over the edge but the problem with that is we will have to trade Vazquez for him but the White Sox won't want him so it will have to be a 3 team deal.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I'm not a fan of Vasquez. Mainly because he dissappeared entirely in every big game he ever pitched in. But he does have alot of value now, at least for the regular season. Here's what I think about trading him though, I would rather do that and get a big return than trade Medlen or anymore top prospects. Medlen may be able to step in a pitch well now, and if he does, we will have him for many years on the cheap. Then who knows, he might not blow up in big games and be useful when it matters. If we could count on Huddy coming back healthy, he would be just as good as Vasquez. So guess what I'm getting at is I'm all for trading him.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

I don't see a bat worth trading Vazquez for that would actually happen..... so I'd rather see us keep Javy for the rest of the year and take it easy with Huddy(reliever for 2 months)...Then we can trade Javy this off season, if we can get an legit corner OF that has at least a year and a half on his contract like Javy then by all means lets get something done...

[Dreamscape]

I love what Vazquez brings to the team. Innings, effective innings, winning innings. Unfortunately, he plays for a team that gives him absolutely no room for error and amazingly, Vazquez is not a perfect pitcher.

But I would trade him if the price was right.

Awful cliche, but that's how I'm rolling right now. If a Matt LaPorta was out there (not him, but a player of his potential at the deadline last year), I'm trading Vazquez today. The Braves aren't "there" in mind and the kind of impact bat is probably not out there for the price the Braves would be willing to pay. Offensive prospects that are ready now or are close-to-ready are the right targets for Vazquez in a trade. Without them...hold onto Vazquez and wait until the offseason.

[BraveFan]

If the Braves do keep Vazquez and Hudson doesn't have a good second half, I could see the Braves not picking up Hudson's option and using that $$ for a bat.

[Agent-X-]

If the Braves do keep Vazquez and Hudson doesn't have a good second half, I could see the Braves not picking up Hudson's option and using that $$ for a bat.

Is Hudson even going to pitch this year? I was under the impression we had seen his last pitch in an Atlanta uniform.

[Andy G.]

Yeah they're saying he'll be making rehab starts in July. Moylan was back eleven months after his surgery, and Hudson's ahead of schedule, so he's hoping he can do the same. I would think that he'd want to pitch this year, even if it's in September and the Braves are out of the race. I don't really see a scenario where we don't see him this year.

[Hobbes]

I'm sure Hudson wants to pitch this season to show that he is capable in the event he is looking for a contract in the offseason.

[BraveFan]

If Hudson can't pitch this season we shouldn't bother to pickup his option, its stupid to spend that much $$ on an uncertainity. I'd rather pay Vazquez's contract than a similar for Hudson who may not be able to play up to the same standard. The only advantage of Hudson over Vazquez is I think Hudson loves playing here and would ask for less after 2010.

[warefreak]

I wouldn't mind us trading Freeman and Vasquez for Lars Anderson. Freeman is about 3 years away and with Lowell and Youkillis good for at least that long the timing would work out for the Sox better. Lars Anderson is ready right now I've heard and we could use him.

I wish we would have traded Teix to the Sox last year for Lars Anderson instead of getting 2 guys that really won't do much in the majors from the Angels.

[Devil Wears Prado]

I wouldn't mind us trading Freeman and Vasquez for Lars Anderson. Freeman is about 3 years away and with Lowell and Youkillis good for at least that long the timing would work out for the Sox better. Lars Anderson is ready right now I've heard and we could use him.

I wish we would have traded Teix to the Sox last year for Lars Anderson instead of getting 2 guys that really won't do much in the majors from the Angels.

Why would the BoSox want Vasquez when they're already having a problem of having too many pitchers? They already have Beckett, Lester, Wakefield, Penny, and Dice-K. They're trying to make room for the up-and-coming John Smoltz (who they are definitely trying to mold into a starter again because they made him throw 130 pitches in the minor leagues yesterday) and they have ready, but waiting Clay Bucholz in the minors also. Penny will most likely get traded to make room for either Smoltz or Bucholz, and Dice-K might be headed to the DL to make room for another one. I don't think they would want Vasquez.

[bravos4evr]

I just read that Bowman is reporting that the Braves are shopping Escobar because Bobby and most of the team hates him and want him gone.

Great, let's trade our 4th best hitter away... Who needs Offense?


One good thing is that he prolly won't ever have more value than he does now, so maybe we could move him for a mashing outfielder under similar control or something.

[bravos4evr]

The report read that they are waiting for Infante's return to move Escobar. So if they move him I bet it'll be for a power hitting outfielder. Infante might put up about 85% of Escobar at SS and whomever we get for him will prolly put up 50% more than Frenchy or Anderson!

Maybe once Schafer's hand is better, we'll move Frenchy, stick Mclouth in RF, trade Escobar for a power LF bat , cut Norton, move GA to the bench.

Mclouth
Kotchman
Chipper
new LF'er
McCann
Infante
KJ
Schafer

better.....

[Johndeerebrave]

I just read that Bowman is reporting that the Braves are shopping Escobar because Bobby and most of the team hates him and want him gone.

Great, let's trade our 4th best hitter away... Who needs Offense?


One good thing is that he prolly won't ever have more value than he does now, so maybe we could move him for a mashing outfielder under similar control or something.


Link?

[FrankEC]

Link?

It's in Bowman's blog toward the bottom of the latest entry...

Bowman's Blog (http://markbowman.mlblogs.com/)

[Johndeerebrave]

That's interesting about Escobar. He could get us a pretty good outfielder.

[sdp]

I like Escobar. But if the Braves trade him, they'd better get a nice return.

[CanadaBravesFan]

I like Escobar. But if the Braves trade him, they'd better get a nice return.

I feel the same way. He is one of my favorite Braves in the last 10 years and plays with passion and has great instincts. The thing that bothers me about him (even more than the mental errors) is the fact ha hasnt learned much English and seems to be a bit of a loner.

[argentina brave]

i didn't see where all the team hates escobar. sure, he's flashy, has flair, but i haven't seen anything about cox and teammates not liking him. he's fine by me.

not speaking english is irrelevant for me personally....

[Andy G.]

I've grown to like Escobar quite a bit, but it's not a surprise at all that the Braves are shopping him(if they are in fact shopping him). Aside from his arrogance, pretending to be hit by a pitch that clearly hit his bat, hurting himself in a silly ritual that involves jumping as high as he can before every at bat, and his constant throwing of the bat after he makes contact, he's not been the smartest ball player over the past year. He made some blunders last year, and it's happened a lot more frequently this year. He's the exact kind of player that irritates Bobby Cox, and if not for his perceived natural talent, I don't think Bobby would have ever gotten as high on him as he did a few summers ago.

He's the kind of guy that people watch and say, "He's got a high ceiling", but that's not enough to make Bobby put up with his antics forever(please...no Francoeur references...we know).

[Andy G.]

Also, he does know English. I remember Lauren pointing out that if you read his lips after certain plays, you can see that he's clearly speaking English. There's was also a member here, I don't remember who, that asked him for an autograph in a mall once and he said, "I'm not signing that".

[wordslayer©]

Escobar

If there were an offensive starter (of value) that we could trade, here is how, I think, the braves look at their players to trade in their desirable order:

1) Mr. Obvious
2) Kotchman
3) Escobar
4) KJ


Based on what their return might bring, I would probably go this route:

1) Chipper
2) Escobar
3) KJ
4) Kotchman
5) Mr. Obvious

In essence, it probably wouldn't be a bad move to trade him. He would be one of our best negotiation pieces.

But then again, I'm pretty much in line with BFH's line of thinking, so I probably wouldn't do too much at all.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Escobar is hitting well, young, cheap, good d, great arm, and hits in the clutch as well as anyone on our team. I do not want to see him traded....

[Middle Man]

I don't know about his teammates (although I can guess) but I can say for certain that Bobby doesn't care for Esco. Last night when Esco took a pitch off his right wrist and was in obvious pain, the trainer dude ran out to check on him. After a minute or so, the camera panned over to the Braves bench and there sat Cox with an indifferent look on his face. His butt never budged from the bench. That tells you all you need to know about Bobby's feelings for Esco.

[Dreamscape]

I don't know about his teammates (although I can guess) but I can say for certain that Bobby doesn't care for Esco. Last night when Esco took a pitch off his right wrist and was in obvious pain, the trainer dude ran out to check on him. After a minute or so, the camera panned over to the Braves bench and there sat Cox with an indifferent look on his face. His butt never budged from the bench. That tells you all you need to know about Bobby's feelings for Esco.
Maybe he thought Escobar was faking like he did when he was "hit" by Randy Wells.

[Middle Man]

Maybe he thought Escobar was faking like he did when he was "hit" by Randy Wells.

I think it was quickly obvious he wasn't faking it, but that's an example of why Cox doesn't care for him, IMO.

[Dreamscape]

I don't think it has to say that. Maybe he isn't a fan of Escobar, but the real sign to me would be if Escobar got into a verbal sparring match with an umpire and Cox didn't come out to protect his player and treated Escobar like Torre treated A-Rod for years.

[Andy G.]

I would also like to see young pitching acquired for Escobar, but I have another thought I'd like to throw out there. What about Escobar, Medlen and Cody Johnson for Matt Holliday? I know the problem that would present with replacing Escobar's production from SS, but say we could find somebody who could put up a .760ish OPS and play solid defense(Omar Infante could do that), wouldn't our lineup be much improved with Holliday in the heart of our order? When Kotchman comes back he can take over as the #2 hitter. The top of our lineup could be McLouth, Kotchman, Chipper, Holliday, McCann....

With Holliday's presence and the production that Kelly will give when things start evening out for him, that lineup might be good enough to make a serious run.

[sdp]

I would also like to see young pitching acquired for Escobar, but I have another thought I'd like to throw out there. What about Escobar, Medlen and Cody Johnson for Matt Holliday? I know the problem that would present with replacing Escobar's production from SS, but say we could find somebody who could put up a .760ish OPS and play solid defense(Omar Infante could do that), wouldn't our lineup be much improved with Holliday in the heart of our order? When Kotchman comes back he can take over as the #2 hitter. The top of our lineup could be McLouth, Kotchman, Chipper, Holliday, McCann....

With Holliday's presence and the production that Kelly will give when things start evening out for him, that lineup might be good enough to make a serious run.

No way I give that up for a rental of Holliday.

And anyways, Holliday won't help. This team has far more problems than Matt Holliday can fix.

[Andy G.]

No way I give that up for a rental of Holliday.

And anyways, Holliday won't help. This team has far more problems than Matt Holliday can fix.
I don't agree with that at all. Everybody talks about how this team has so many problems, but it really only has one big problem, and that's the offense. The middle inning relievers aren't great, but that can also be fixed. We might even be able to get an arm in the trade with Holliday. Think about how much of an improvement Holliday is over Garret Anderson. It's still mid-June. There's plenty of time to salvage the season.

Also, I don't mind the fact that he's a rental for two reasons. A) I think it might be enough to make us legitimate contenders and B) Those three players aren't the cornerstones of the future. They're entirely replacable. Medlen isn't as great as he seems, IMO, and Escobar is overrated. Johnson is a giant question mark and he plays the outfield. We have Schafer, McLouth and Heyward already.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Feliz was a question mark with potential. So was Andrus. I wouldn't want that trade, even if we were sitting 5 games over .500.

[The Rap]

The problem with a lot of this stuff is that there is no way the Braves have given up on this season. The Phillies have huge problems if Lidge doesn't get straightened out and that isn't a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. Also, they need to get another starter to really replace Brett Myers and anyone who thinks that Ibanez will do what he's doing all year must be smoking something I wish had some of. The Mets are like in the same boat as their relief depth really took a hit with Putz and the precariousness of Maine and Oliver Perez coming though. Pelfrey isn't any big deal and the injuries to Reyes (potentially devastating) and DelGado (significant) really hurt. If we can get some significant offensive help for our outfield then I think we might in the mix until the end. Maybe Jermaine Dye? Also the perfect guy to deal Francouer for might be Delmon Young and then he and Jeff can have a race to avoid the "great bust" award they are in the running for.

[Hobbes]

We couldn't even get a guy that's pretty one-dimensional like Cody Ross. Ouch.
It's not really surprising that we couldn't get a one-dimensional guy in exchange for our no-dimensional guy.

[Andy G.]

First of all, 5-8 are not black holes. Kelly isn't a black hole. People don't want to hear "bad luck" because it sounds like an excuse, but KJ has seriously had a lot of bad luck this year. See my post a few days ago about his BABIP, and how his numbers compare to his career marks if his BABIP weren't so freakishly low. He's not performing as well as he can, but at the same time he's not performing as badly as his numbers suggest.

Kotchman isn't a black hole. He's a good hitter, especially for somebody who's hitting sixth in a lineup. Right now, we have McLouth, Escobar, Chipper, McCann, Kotchman and KJ who are all good hitters. Anderson and Francoeur are the actual black holes in our lineup. Replace Anderson with Holliday and put somebody to do a smidgen less than what Escobar is doing, and we're a significantly better team.

Rentals are not such a terrible thing. Yes, you're taking a chance. If the team doesn't win the World Series, you could say the trade was pointless. That doesn't mean it's wrong to take that chance. The two things fans do most is think things are worse than they really are and overvalue their own prospects/players in terms of trade discussions.

I say go for it. At the very least, it makes the rest of this season more exciting.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

What? A strong arm isn't considered a dimension anymore? LoL.

I wish we could Hermidia. Good bat, great OBP, has pop. Would slot in nice at 4 or 5. He is a FA at the end of the season but he should be the type of guy we wil be looking for in the offseason anyway. I just worry about his injury history.

[bmcvay10]

Lowe
Vazquez
Jurrjens
Hanson

Soriano
Gonzalez

Hudson???

Let's face it, that is a hell of a postseason force. So long as Hanson continues to develop and he might be ahead of at least one of the 3 guys I listed above. I'm almost never in favor of dumping quality youth for a rental, but I can't say that about this season. All of you who think this team is more than just a bat and a relief arm away, IMO, are plain wrong. Let's assume Escobar is on the team for the rest of the year since these are just rumors. Also assume that Holliday is the "rental" that we pick up. I highly doubt Kelly will stay down as much as he is now. So, let's assume he picks it up and finishes out around his career averages. Finally, consider the steady offensive improvements Garret Anderson has been making. They aren't drastic improvements, but he is improving. This is what we ought to see:

McClouth CF
Escobar SS
Jones 3B
Holliday RF
McCann C
Kotchman 1B
Anderson LF
Johnson 2B
Pitcher P

With David Ross, Infante, Prado, Diaz, and possibly Schafer on the bench, we have everything we need to win...a lot. If the 6,7,and 8 hitters finish around their career average, or better, we are scoring runs. Definitely enough runs to support this pitching staff. If we can get Holliday, and it doesn't ruin the farm, I say get his ass here in a hurry. Also, who knows if he would be a rental? What if Kawakami is moved, or Hudson and Vazquez are both moved if KK steps it up? Lowe, Jair, Hanson, Kawakami would still serve as a very solid top 4. Holliday is still young, someone we could build around with McClouth, freeing up guys like Schafer or Heyward to land another cheaper young arm to fill in the rotation and possibly complete another solid roster that has the potential to win for years.

[bravos4evr]

You lost me at moving Heyward...... That guy has like A-rodesque potential. I wouldn't trade him for anything short of Halladay with a 5 year $30 mill extension!

[KB 34]

Assuming Hanson develops at an amazing rate; Francoeur, Anderson, and KJ all turn it around; Hudson is successful in returning from TJ surgery, the Braves financial concerns disappear and they are able to acquire a legitimate cleanup hitter without killing the farm system; and the Braves stay healthy they have a wonderful shot at making the playoffs. The problem is all of that is simply not going to happen. Don't give me any negativity grief either, if half of it happens everyone should be ridiculously thrilled. If half it happens the Braves might sneak into the playoffs.

[Dreamscape]

No, please don't say "who knows if he's going to be rental?" It's that type of thinking that brought Teix in the fold. You have to completely suspend reality to ignore the fact that the Braves have had to overspend in either money, years, or both to sign a top free agent (if you call Lowe a top free agent) and are they really going to pay Holliday $15M or more along with Chipper, Lowe, Kawakami, McLouth, McCann, and probably Hudson or Vazquez?

But beyond that, Holliday is going to cost big time prospects. Billy Beane has shown that he has no problem waiting until the offseason, offering arbitration, and taking two draft choices. He's a rental...we know that. This team still will have gaping holes in the bullpen and is banking on increased production from three positions in your argument.

To me, we aren't a player away. We can't bank on players suddenly hitting better, nor bank on the bullpen that has been underwhelming to say the least and likely will struggle in the dog days of summer because they have been abused to this point. Sending a big package...and that includes young arms or young bats that are of B-grade or higher...to Billy Beane in hopes Holliday makes all the difference does not seem like a good idea.

I'm not much on assumptions being the reason to change. I want facts. Right now, this team is nowhere close to being "justthisclose" from being a championship contender.

[bravos4evr]

We need one more pen arm, we need both corner outfielders ( or Schafer to return and hit much better than he has). We need KJ to be around .800 OPS. We need Kotchman to return from the DL and return to form immediately! We need Chipper to hit around an .980+ OPS and McCann close behind.

only then will this team even be 90+ win good. MAYBE.

Hmmm this gave me an idea for my throw in the towel thread!

[sdp]

Put me in the camp that says that Frank Wren would be sorely mistaken to trade Escobar because Papa Cox has some reservations about his personality and the way he plays the game at times. If Bobby's feelings can dictate such a move, then I pity the "minds" in control. In my mind, Escobar is a special shortstop and comes at a fair price over the next several years. And with no other real options readily available in the system, you have to be a bit crazy to trade him.

[bmcvay10]

I just don't agree with some of this. Kelly Johnson (remember I used to rip this guy as hard as I could in the past), Isn't doing anything differently than he has in the last couple years. He hit just under .300 in the month of May with an .828 OPS. He's 2 for his last 5, so we might see him tear it up during the month of June, which if I remember right, June was one of his awesome months last season. Maybe you can't expect them to finish each season around their career average, but you can't disregard those numbers in KJ's case this early either.

KB - I didn't say that I thought Hudson would even pitch this season. I put his name in with ?? beside it. While he would definitely help if he pitched near his potential, I'm not assuming he'll throw one pitch for us again.

As for me mentioning a trade involving Heyward - I'd expect him to bring someone like Halladay to us. That's my point. If you have McClouth and someone like Holliday (two solid young guys in each corner spot to build a team around), you can afford to trade a guy with "potential" for an established younger star like a Peavy, Haren, or Halladay.

I realize I'm speaking with much optimism. I don't expect everyone to be healthy all season. Though if we are to make a postseason in any season, we will have to be somewhat lucky in terms of time spent on the DL.

I believe that taking Jeff out of the lineup, and replacing him with a Matt Holliday, will make a tremendous impact on this team. We'd remove one of the worst outfielders in baseball and replace him with someone in the elite outfielder (by that I mean offensively). That is taking a hole out of the lineup and placing an offensive beast in there instead. Sorry but I think the top 5 in our lineup would produce almost enough runs to put us on some winning streaks. If the 6-8 contributed consistently then we might run away with things pretty quickly.

I don't understand how so many of you write this season off when you clearly understand that we are almost at .500 in mid-June when we have been giving the pitchers no run support. This staff is good enough to win 90-100 games given some support.

[bmcvay10]

Just checked KJ's career splits and found, what I thought to be, a pretty strange stat.

When the team wins KJ:

bats .318
On Base .402
Slugs .539
OPS .941
BAbip .351
OPS+ 139

when they lose:

bats .218
On Base .292
Slugs .398
OPS .690
BAbip .278
OPS+ 59

Maybe there are more guys like this, but I thought this was odd.

[Andy G.]

I agree with you BFH. Players and teams have bad years, and career averages don't always show up in a given season, but we're about a third of the way through the year right now. To suggest it is more likely that luck will carry over for an entire season, rather than exist for a short time within that season, is not logical IMO. It is possible, and I understand following a hunch. I just don't have the same hunch. I can only assume that KJ will perform the way he has his entire career. That includes this season which has seen him hit the ball the same way he always has with some funky things happening to mess up the numbers.

Assuming Hanson develops at an amazing rate; Francoeur, Anderson, and KJ all turn it around; Hudson is successful in returning from TJ surgery, the Braves financial concerns disappear and they are able to acquire a legitimate cleanup hitter without killing the farm system; and the Braves stay healthy they have a wonderful shot at making the playoffs.
We need one more pen arm, we need both corner outfielders ( or Schafer to return and hit much better than he has). We need KJ to be around .800 OPS. We need Kotchman to return from the DL and return to form immediately! We need Chipper to hit around an .980+ OPS and McCann close behind.

only then will this team even be 90+ win good. MAYBE.
Saying "If this happens and if that happens, we'll be this good" is silly. That's like pretending to have proof that God exists. Life is complex, baseball is complex, nothing in this world is as simple as baseball is made out to be in these discussions. I'm thankful for my skeptical mind, and I hate seeing people act like there's a formula to predict the outcome of anything, much less a baseball season.

Also, about declaring a season over based on a team's record on a certain date in June, what happens if they take two of three from both the Reds and BoSox? That's only six games, and this is baseball. How sure can anybody be that they won't win four of their next six games? What happens if they go to New York and take two of three from them? We beat the Mets and Phillies in back to back series on the road last month, who's to say we can't win six of our next nine? If we go .500 over this twelve game stretch, I'll still feel pretty decent about our chances this year. I do think we need to get another hitter, though.

The Phillies didn't lose a single game last year after taking a lead into the ninth inning. Brad freakin' Lidge gave them a perfect season. The Mets crumbled in September to allow them to win the division. Things happened for them that probably shouldn't have, and they won the World Series. That's baseball. The Rays had a magical season and made it to the WS. In '04, the BoSox were the first team in history to come back from being down 3-0, and they won the WS. The Cardinals won the WS a few years ago and they were hardly better than a .500 team. That's what it takes for ANYBODY to win it all. It's not just the Braves that are counting on things working out in their favor. How much do you want to bet that the Dodgers don't win the World Series this year?

I respect everybody's opinion. Obviously, the majority here believes that the Braves are too far off to start trading for rentals and what not. I don't see things the same way. I think the Braves have a lot of things going for them, and with a little help, they have just as good of a shot at winning it all as anybody else in the National League. Then again, nothing is black and white. My approval of any trade would depend on a lot of things, and there are a number of things that could happen to change my entire outlook on this season.

[CanadaBravesFan]

IF Halladay is available, I would trade ANYBODY to get him. Easily the best pitcher in baseball would take quite the offer to get in a trade

[bravos4evr]

I like you Gilley, but that was a very naieve response.

So you are saying that if we don't hit and don't get bullpen help we can win anyway? Nope. We can't and i don't think one bat is gonna do it either. We really need two or Schafer to return and hit fairly well. You don't just go from scoring 3 runs a game to 5 overnight ya know!

This team has no patience at the plate , many seem to have no plan . They are just about dead last in pitches per at bat which tells me all I need to know. We aren't going to win unless we go and spend some prospects and $$$ on a much big time power hitter and Schafer hits and KJ hits.

[Andy G.]

I like you Gilley, but that was a very naieve response.

So you are saying that if we don't hit and don't get bullpen help we can win anyway? Nope. We can't and i don't think one bat is gonna do it either. We really need two or Schafer to return and hit fairly well. You don't just go from scoring 3 runs a game to 5 overnight ya know!

This team has no patience at the plate , many seem to have no plan . They are just about dead last in pitches per at bat which tells me all I need to know. We aren't going to win unless we go and spend some prospects and $$$ on a much big time power hitter and Schafer hits and KJ hits.
No, my response was not naive. I agree we need another hitter. I said that in my post. I've advocated trading for Holliday or a similar hitter. I guess I could have made that more clear in my last post, though if you've read my posts in this thread you should know that.

Our offense will get better with the return of Kotchman and the inevitable(in my mind) increase of production from Kelly Johnson. Get rid of Poo Poo and Francoeur, add the hitter I'm talking about, and yes, we can start scoring more runs. Everybody talks about how 5-8 in our lineup is completely nonproductive. That's been true lately, but it won't continue to be. Even if Escobar is used in the trade to get Holliday or whoever, we can upgrade our lineup big time.

McLouth
Kotchman
Chipper
Holliday
McCann
Johnson
Infante
Schafer/whoever we put out there when we get rid of Francoeur

That lineup has pop and would get on base pretty well. They would score enough runs to get things done.

[CanadaBravesFan]

If we use Esco in a trade for Matt Holliday I will be pissed.

[bmcvay10]

Someone please take a look at the KJ career splits I posted on page 7 and tell me if you think those are a little odd. I'm haven't researched many players' career splits, so I was hoping someone else who may have a little more knowledge of these numbers could tell me what they thought.

[BigWorm]

I've always thought KJ was the key to the Braves success. Thanks for posting those splits. If he was the player Dreamscapealumptydump thought he was we'd be in first place. He needs to produce, now.

[Dreamscape]

Someone please take a look at the KJ career splits I posted on page 7 and tell me if you think those are a little odd. I'm haven't researched many players' career splits, so I was hoping someone else who may have a little more knowledge of these numbers could tell me what they thought.
It's not odd for players to play better in wins. Escobar has a .979 OPS in wins, a .623 OPS in loses. Brian McCann has a .970 OPS in wins, a .747 OPS in loses. Chipper Jones, who has a wealth of numbers to negate sample size outliers, has a 1.080 OPS in wins, a .733 OPS in loses.

The odd thing would be if a player had better numbers in loses.

And I love you, too, bigworm.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

From what Dream says the numbers show, it suggests that each player performing at a high level is the "key" to the team's success. These summer somnambulists I've seen lately can each accept the blame. I don't see any single guy as the "key." The season is too long and no one guy can carry the team for a season. This team desperately needs some guys who can hit. Period. KJ may be the "key" in non-performers who have shown enough in the past to make one think they should be better. Escobar's childishness and ignoring of Cox's guidance has him on the shipping list and I don't see anyone short of McCann worthy of building around. McLouth is solid and dependable, the other OFs are 4th-5th types at best. Anderson may get back to his former production levels, but I wouldn't count on it. They do have some good pitching but pitching can't win it without, at the least, great defense and timely hitting. I haven't seen either. .500 seems like a lofty goal. Just like in the late 70s.

[BigWorm]

Sorry Dream, I should have gone with Dreamscapealufagus. It sounds less hateful than lumpadump. Kisses.

[Chris_Moderato]

So, this isn't a trade rumor, but according to the Wall Street Journal's (http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2009/06/16/study-says-braves-not-going-to-academic-playoffs-either/?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab) questionable formula, the Braves are the dumbest team in Major League Baseball. I only mention this stupid ranking because of Tim Hudson's response:

"I knew over the years I’ve gotten dumber. Now I know why. I’m surrounded by a bunch of morons."

Classic!

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Frenchy is screwing up the curve.

[KB 34]

The Braves have a policy of not drafting a player if they didn't grow up within a 75 mile radius of Atlanta so I guess depending on the formula that could be a problem if the author doesn't like schools within a 150 radius of Atlanta.

[Lauren T.]

So, this isn't a trade rumor, but according to the Wall Street Journal's (http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2009/06/16/study-says-braves-not-going-to-academic-playoffs-either/?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab) questionable formula, the Braves are the dumbest team in Major League Baseball. I only mention this stupid ranking because of Tim Hudson's response:

"I knew over the years I’ve gotten dumber. Now I know why. I’m surrounded by a bunch of morons."

Classic!
I think we saw that at the same time -- I posted the link and the AJC photo gallery on Braves Love tonight. Silly Huddy. <3

[MSbravefan]

I know we've talked about trading off Soriano and Gonzalez if we don't turn things around, but do we have to? Both players could attain Type A Free Agent Status, so we would need to get something better than the value of two first round picks

[wordslayer©]

BFH.....

IF we are five to six games out, by the middle of July, do you think the braves will be sellers? For this to happen, this will require them to concede that most of their offseason moves did not pan out. As it stands right now, and maybe in July, they do have the position of "we are only five games out" strategy to fall back on, which will allow them not to admit that their moves were/are failures.

I sometimes think they will go the seller route, but based on the history of this organization, I don't know if they will see themselves as sellers.

In their defense, five to six games out in July is not being out of the race...so I don't know. Personally, I'd rather see them sell out at five games out in July, but my gut is, they won't do it.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I don't see this team doing anything. It starts at the top. Cox's drowsy demeanor and occasional rah-rah stuff isn't going to help this team get anywhere other than last place. They don't have enough ML level production on the roster, no matter how you slice it. The folks I see as "keepers," Chipper excluded because of age and status, are McCann, McLouth, and Escobar. Each has proven ability in the bigs. Escobar is playing out the string, as I see it, because we know guys don't buck the Bobby system and hang around long. The Mcs are worth building around. Most of the rest are roster filler. Subs and back-up types, interchangeable each season with dozens of other retreads and hopefuls. Any type of additions to this club should be strictly made with the future seasons in mind. Move whomever they can for any type of improvement, or much simpler, send Cox packing, replace him with a guy who actually manages and can get positive results from kids and upgrade the "team" approach. This team is done. It's only a matter of how serious the owners and management are about the future as to when this team makes any type of forward progress. I think they're afraid to dump Cox, so prepare yourselves for some "old school" Braves baseball. That includes tons of losses, lots of bad play and sadly, no one close to as entertaining as Skip Carey in sight to make the losing more tolerable. God, I miss Skip and Ernie Johnson!

[argentina brave]

man freddy, do you have a thing for ole bobby!

[CanadaBravesFan]

I have been a fan of Bobby and am very thankful for his efforts. However, its time to move on. Give him a front office job and lets get a a more aggressive guy in there.

[Hobbes]

I have been a fan of Bobby and am very thankful for his efforts. However, its time to move on. Give him a front office job and lets get a a more aggressive guy in there.
My feelings exactly.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I was a big fan of Bobby's when he helped start that historic run. He actually managed the team helping a roster of near no-names win by having them play hard-nosed baseball and playing a team game. By 1995 the team had developed or obtained enough talent it could essentially run on auto-pilot. So that's how Bobby "managed." He rode the talent and if he made a difference in a game with his "managing," it was only because he made a bad move. He hasn't changed. It's as if he doesn't realize this team isn't beat up with all-stars and future HoFers. He's past it and has been for years. I've been on this for years, which many can recall from some of the columns I wrote at the old sites. I am a bit fulfilled by seeing a number of you coming around to my point of view. Forgive me my conceit.

By the way, do the Blue Jays have any offensive talent that would be a good fit for the Braves? With all of their starters broken there ought to be a deal we could make to bring in a bat of some sort. Have you considered them BFH?

[BraveFan]

Unless the Braves are way out of it I see the Braves being buyers instead of sellers. The reason I say that is Bobby, I doubt think he would allow the Braves to rebuild and go younger b/c he wants to win b/c he will probably retire soon. I don't think the Braves will make any huge moves either, I think they will aquire an outfielder that isn't making much $$ and will keep Vazquez so they can wait to see how Hudson is so they can decide in the offseason if they want to keep Vazquez or if they want to pickup Hudson's option and trade Vazquez. I think someone like Josh Willingham will be aquired.

If the Braves are way out of it I think they still keep Vazquez, as I see it it would make more sense to trade Javy if they are in contention so they can get an expensive bat to win this season but I don't see a Vazquez deal any way. I think Gonzalez and/or Soriano will be traded if the Braves are way out of it but kept if the Braves are in it.

The deal for McLouth shows that the Braves want to deal and I could see the Braves making a move real soon if they move.

[RiknTN]

The Braves would have to be a dozen games or more out by July 3st before they would sell. Past history reveals how they think. They just don't sell. You are just beating your head against the wall with all this speculation about selling scenarios. Just won't happen unless they badly tank. And they don't do THAT either.

[RiknTN]

I could see that scenario. But even then the most they would do is sell of a couple of expensive parts that probably don't fit in their 3 yr plan anyway. Such as maybe Kawakami, Soriano or Ganzo (not both), and maybe Kotchman. I think Hudson will be re-sign or at least his option honored. I think their future rotation will be Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, and Vazquez. Both experience and youth. THeir won't be a wholesale sell-off. Just can't see them doing that.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It will be sad if Wren allows us to languish in 4th place through the deadline again, without selling off any expendable assets, especially considering how nxt season we could be looking at one of the top 3 rotations in baseball. If we sign Hudson like I hope we will, we're looking at Vasquez as our 5th starter. Thats pretty awesome to know we will have 4 guys capable of putting up an "ace" type season and a solid 5th to boot. But with no Offense and no pen it won't matter. I say trade gonzo and Soriano. Just because we want to resign one next season, why pay to have them the rest of the season for no good reason? We will still have the chance of resigning them, or picking from the FA pool. Trade them at the deadline, pick up some nice young pieces for next season, then go after the remaining holes in the offseason.

[Andy G.]

This is crazy...probably even stupid...but say the Braves do turn into sellers. Imagine what we might be able to get for Vazquez and Soriano/Gonzalez. If we traded one of those relievers with Javy, we could get an awesome package of prospects. At least in a perfect world we could.

I think Rik's right, though. I don't think we'll be sellers. I think we'll win enough games during this tough stretch to still be in contention, and we'll see Wren try to improve the offense.

[RiknTN]

That doesn't have to be a bad thing.....as long as the improvements he makes fits in the long term plan and not just an end of the year rental.

In my opinion you don't have to think..... start of season/this team/this season/end of season/regroup.............and then do it all again next season. It SHOULD be just one long continuous plan that never ends......it just gets adjusted alng the way.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

There's no way people look at gonzo as just another loogy. He's a solid set-up man and an average closer option. He still has value, and should be worth a young live arm with controllable years left to contribute important innings in the pen in the next few yrs, or a decent package of young prospects. His WHIP is awful but he would be an upgrade for a few teams out there as a closer, and a very good setup man for a team like the yankees. If they do keep one, for some reason, I hope it's soriano. He's still just 29. Injury history scares me, but besides that he's been everything we hoped for. I think trading Vasquez and a reliever would make a ton of sense, that's probably why it wouldn't happen. Vasquez and Soriano would provide an enormous boost to the yankees, or Rangers for instance. (yea I know, yankess would want no part of Vasquez again, but it makes a load of sense.) If we could get a package with austin jackson, or Nelson Cruz outta that I would be freaking ecstatic.

[BigWorm]

Since I was a little boy, I've haven't seen the Braves become sellers. My feelings are they won't start now. Whether that's the right move or not, they won't be shopping around relievers at the deadline. We kind of need those guys. We've got too much damn pitching to be acting like sellers. I know we have a bear of a schedule coming up, but come on guys, you know the Braves....they'll probably sweep the damn Yankees, take two of three from the red sox and then get swept by the nationals. They don't make a lot of sense, they play to the level of the competition. Plus if you read the gamethread, you'll see that I successfully lifted the curse today. My bookie hates me, because I've only been calling him lately when Tommy Hanson takes the mound. Cha Ching. Dinner's on me boys.

[BraveFan]

If the Braves do become Sellers I think it would be stupid to trade both Gonzalez and Soriano being Sellers doesn't mean you are selling 2010 as long as 09 and we don't have the pieces to replace them both in the pen. If it comes down to it I want Soriano to be the one re-signed. Gonzo will probably get more cash because he is a lefty but I think Soriano is the better pitcher, not the opinion I had before this year but have come to that conclusion.

[KB 34]

My concern with trading both Soriano and Gonzalez is how bad the bullpen would be without them. I know if the Braves are out of it in a sense it doesn't matter but the Braves need to win some games, and I don't want to see starting pitchers going 130 pitches because if they don't it's over. With Bobby Cox as manager here's the bullpen without them.

Closer: Moylan
8th inning setup: Bennett
7th setup: Acosta
LOOGY: O'Flaherty
Middle relief: Carlyle (I'm guessing), Medlen
Long relief: Parr

That bullpen is downright scary and has no chance at being decent. Maybe it's a bit better if the Braves turn one of them into a lesser reliever who is signed past this season. Trading both of them for prospects strikes me as a way to create a huge problem now that won't pay off in the future either.

[CanadaBravesFan]

The only way we trade both is if we get 2 BEASTS for the lineup. Think about it, if we had a lineup that actually scored runs we may be leading the division by 5 or more.

McLouth
Esco
CJ
BEAST #1
McCann
BEAST #2
Kotchman
KJ/Anderson/Frenchy (whoever is left over)

With the great Starting staff and either Hudson to the pen or Vazquez dealt for pen help/prospects a 6-5 or 7-6 team may be a better option

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

If the Braves do become Sellers I think it would be stupid to trade both Gonzalez and Soriano being Sellers doesn't mean you are selling 2010 as long as 09 and we don't have the pieces to replace them both in the pen. If it comes down to it I want Soriano to be the one re-signed. Gonzo will probably get more cash because he is a lefty but I think Soriano is the better pitcher, not the opinion I had before this year but have come to that conclusion.

How exactly will we be hurting our chances in 2010 by trading both relievers? Neither is signed after this season. If we keep them, when we know we are out of it,we get nothing but comp picks. I still don't see why people still think having a player on your roster at the end of a season is a huge advantage in signing said player. For 90% of these guys it's all about the money. Maybe living on the beach, winning a championship, or living somewhere tax exempt can sway their opinion also. We don't offer any of those. To get FA's we will have to spend top dollar regardless.

[KB 34]

Winning can go a long ways towards attracting free agents and helped the Braves for years. The problem is once a team stops winning it must prove that it can win before getting discounts like that again. This is where the Braves are at right now.2

[KB 34]

So letting both leave for prospects is any better?

If we trade either of them, the package requested back will likely require at least a two-player package, one of which would likely be a major league ready arm to plug directly into the bullpen. I'm not sure if you've taken the time to sift through my ideas mentioned in my blog, but I threw out a couple of names out of the myriad of possibilities and I think if given the chance, by 2010 they could easily supplant Moylan as our only retained late-inning option. Couple that with the likely return from a Vazquez trade being a 3-player package, one of which being a closer-quality arm, our bullpen becomes less of a problem for 2010. Sure, it's not Soriano/Gonzalez, but it's a hell of a lot better than letting both leave for a total of 4 comp picks and having to go overpay someone to come and close games.
I still think one of them will be resigned and I don't think either will be traded, although I am open to trading one for random prospects. If the Braves get back relievers as part of deals then I'd say go ahead and deal them both. My guess is that would be quite difficult to pull off although I could be wrong. Next season is a completely different story and I'm sure the situation could be solved by then, resulting in a better closer than Moylan. Who knows if it's a Vazquez deal or what.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Juan Pierre #9 LF

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

2009 ....... LA 59 195 33 64 12 3 0 22 16 17 16 4 .328 .388 .421 .809

I wouldn't mind making a run at Pierre this offseason. We could probably get him cheaply on a 1 or 2 yr deal and we would have a legit leadoff man. Of course hes up and down, but I think he could be a nice risk for around 4Mil a yr or so, which might be all it would take to get him.

[BraveFan]

How exactly will we be hurting our chances in 2010 by trading both relievers? Neither is signed after this season. If we keep them, when we know we are out of it,we get nothing but comp picks. I still don't see why people still think having a player on your roster at the end of a season is a huge advantage in signing said player. For 90% of these guys it's all about the money. Maybe living on the beach, winning a championship, or living somewhere tax exempt can sway their opinion also. We don't offer any of those. To get FA's we will have to spend top dollar regardless.

I was saying that the Braves should try and sign at least one of them and therefore trading them both would be stupid. With either Hudson or Vazquez's contract gone and Francoeur likely gone the Braves should be able to afford one of them and replace Hudson or Vazquez's salary for our needed bat.

[BraveFan]

Juan Pierre #9 LF

SEASON TEAM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

2009 ....... LA 59 195 33 64 12 3 0 22 16 17 16 4 .328 .388 .421 .809

I wouldn't mind making a run at Pierre this offseason. We could probably get him cheaply on a 1 or 2 yr deal and we would have a legit leadoff man. Of course hes up and down, but I think he could be a nice risk for around 4Mil a yr or so, which might be all it would take to get him.


Juan Pierre isn't a free agent, he is signed through 2011.

[Andy G.]

Edit: Walked away from the computer and missed a bunch of comments. Oops.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

So you'd rather keep them and miss out on whatever the return would be just because we're going to be that much worse for the rest of this season? We're only going to trade them if we're out of it and have little hope of signing them in the offseason. We'll have to replace them next year anyway. What's the problem?

Yea, thats my point also. We could get young arms in return for them, that could be in our pen contributing next season. If we get picks, then we will have to wait years for them to contribute, if ever. Trading them is the best way to help us next season, not holding onto them.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Hmm...but it's not all about free agents. Besides, next winter's class of free agents outside of Matt Holliday and Jason Bay, leaves a lot to be desired. Oh...and if you think that we are actually going to be able to out-bid the Red Sox for Bay and probably the Yankees for Holliday, you're just pipedreaming...and if it's relievers you're after, you're also looking at a pretty thin market which is headed by our two boys; unless, of course, you think that Billy Wagner and Jose Valverde will command more. I, personally, think as long as Soriano/Gonzo stay healthy they'll be the jewels of the class.

This team's money was spent last winter. We'll be looking to the trade market for our primary fixes at the backend of the bullpen and in the outfield. Our main trade pieces, if we do not move Soriano/Gonzo before the deadline, will be Javier Vazquez, Kelly Johnson, Jeff Francoeur. I don't know about you, but I don't feel we'll get anything that will help us in 2010 aside from the package we get for Vazquez (whose value drops in the off-season, might I add: half a season less of retainability and semi-deep class that includes many of the starters said to be available now plus cheaper options like Contreras, Doug Davis, Duchscherer, and potential aces like Rich Harden, Lackey).

If this team is out of contention in two weeks to a month, it needs to consider moving some valuable pieces before their value runs thinner come the offseason.


And I suspect what little money we have, will have to be spent on the offense anyway. Which reminds of an articel I read earlier saying it was very possible we could sign holliday in the offseason and the A's wouldn't get a first rd pick due to our low draft pick and should make sure and trade him now. Damn I Wish. People must still think Turner owns the braves or something.

[Andy G.]

Winning can go a long ways towards attracting free agents and helped the Braves for years. The problem is once a team stops winning it must prove that it can win before getting discounts like that again. This is where the Braves are at right now.2
If we trade them it's because we're not winning enough to even be in contention. You really think baseball players work like that anyway? They go to who pays them the most.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I have the answer to all our problems.

http://capitolavenueclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/GBraves.jpeg

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

yea I agree it would be bad for the organization as whole. However, I found that funny pic and had to make up something to post it :D

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I mentioned the Milwaukee Brewers as one possible team that could benefit from that scenario, but another one that just popped into my mind is the Toronto Blue Jays if they feel like they are legitimate contenders this season. I mean, they're only a game back from the Yankees in the AL East and their pitching staff has been in shambles most of the year. They have to feel that if they fortify their staff they'll be overtaking the Yankees, no?

I'm not sure what they'd give us and if they'd be willing to sacrifice Alex Rios (mostly because of that blowup he had with the fans a couple weeks back), but I wonder if they'd send us Travis Snider in a big ol' 5-player package.

BFH, if the yank's didn't HATE Vasquez they'd be the perfect situation. I'm betting if JVwas any other pitcher having the same season, him plus Soriano would bring in a huge haul from them, as that one trade would fill the 2 glaring holes on their team and possibly allow them to catch the Sox.

[BraveFan]

I'm going to be selfish and say that I want the Braves to make moves that make them better real soon, I can only take losing for a certain period of time. The Braves spoiled all of us and 3 and maybe 4 years is enough of this crap. If we aquire prospects it better be guys that can play next year, it so hard to predict if a single or double A player is valuable.

[KB 34]

If we trade them it's because we're not winning enough to even be in contention. You really think baseball players work like that anyway? They go to who pays them the most.
In most cases it works that way but the Braves were helped occasionally by players like Robert Fick who didn't command big money but felt if they could have a good season they'd be able to cash in. Griffey may have been a situation similar to this last offseason.

If there was any confusion about me thinking the Braves were going to attract big free agents........think about it.

[-Dr. Brave-]

If there was any confusion about me thinking the Braves were going to attract big free agents........think about it.

Hey, it's already starting to happen! The Braves signed utilityman Chris Burke to a minor league deal (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/06/braves-sign-chris-burke.html)! Woo-hoo!! Watch out Greg Norton!!

[Andy G.]

If there was any confusion about me thinking the Braves were going to attract big free agents........think about it.
I never thought that's what you were saying. There's still not a lot of logic behind your point. If we're out of contention, we're not winning a lot of games. Keeping somebody for the rest of the season just so we can get a couple more wins and missing out on the return he would have brought in a trade is foolish.

[Johndeerebrave]

Hey, it's already starting to happen! The Braves signed utilityman Chris Burke to a minor league deal (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/06/braves-sign-chris-burke.html)! Woo-hoo!! Watch out Greg Norton!!

Ironically, the guy who ended our 2005 season with that series-winning HR off Joey Devine in Houston in the 18th inning in Game 4 of the NLDS. Ugh! Poor Joey. He should never have come up to the majors that season, period, let alone been in that situation. (Thanks Rotsma).

[Johndeerebrave]

Ironically, the guy who ended our 2005 season with that series-winning HR off Joey Devine in Houston in the 18th inning in Game 4 of the NLDS. Ugh! Poor Joey. He should never have come up to the majors that season, period, let alone been in that situation. (Thanks Rotsma).

Check that...thanks Farnsworth, not Reitsma.

[KB 34]

I never thought that's what you were saying. There's still not a lot of logic behind your point. If we're out of contention, we're not winning a lot of games. Keeping somebody for the rest of the season just so we can get a couple more wins and missing out on the return he would have brought in a trade is foolish.
That assumes trading a great reliever and replacing them with a bad reliever has no major lasting effects on the starting rotation, bullpen, and youth development. For example, we know Smoltz pitched a lot more innings than he and the Braves thought was ideal because they didn't believe in the bullpen sufficiently. Right now the Braves starting rotation is incredible and I don't want to see adjustments to compensate for a lousy bullpen, which would inevitably happen if both were dealt. Another aspect is my suspicion that the market for relievers won't be great with teams not wanting to spend a lot of money in the current economy. I could be wrong on this and it's probably too early to tell. The ideal situation is probably the Braves turn both into two relievers with multi-year contracts or arbitration eligibility but once again who knows what the market will bring.

[Andy G.]

I can understand your concerns about the market not being there for Soriano and Gonzalez. I don't think it will be a problem after what Rosenthal said about Street and considering that there are always teams looking for late inning relievers around the deadline.

As for not wanting to trade them because of the effects on our rotation, your confidence in Bobby Cox must be lower than I ever imagined. He'd have to do a number on our starters over the last two months in order to have a negative impact on them in 2010. Doesn't seem plausible to me.

[KB 34]

It's not just Bobby Cox though as with him good starting pitchers get a bit more say in how long they get to stay in games. My strategy regarding this is based on me feeling increasing the odds of injuries and problems aren't worth the odds as they are. The chances are good it wouldn't matter but with the pitching that good the Braves should be able to put together a competitive team next season. I haven't crunched the numbers yet but getting rid of Hudson or Vazquez (depends on several obvious things but one is gone), Francoeur, and Anderson frees up some money and for the second two practically guarantees the team improves. Soriano and Gonzalez make close to $10 million which also makes some moves possible. I also believe KJ, Kotchman, Schafer, and Escobar would have better seasons with a real power hitter around. There's potential in 2010 which is why I'm advocating protecting talent now.

[bravos4evr]

IF they lose both Sorain and Gonzo, either void Hudson's option or trade Vazquez, dump poopoo and Frenchy. After arby the team could have close to $20 million to spend. That would buy Holliday and a decent relief arm. But not too much else at all.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I mentioned the Milwaukee Brewers as one possible team that could benefit from that scenario, but another one that just popped into my mind is the Toronto Blue Jays if they feel like they are legitimate contenders this season. I mean, they're only a game back from the Yankees in the AL East and their pitching staff has been in shambles most of the year. They have to feel that if they fortify their staff they'll be overtaking the Yankees, no?

I'm not sure what they'd give us and if they'd be willing to sacrifice Alex Rios (mostly because of that blowup he had with the fans a couple weeks back), but I wonder if they'd send us Travis Snider in a big ol' 5-player package.

Just popped into your mind? I addressed you specifically a few posts back about the Jays and their broken pitchers! Wow....guess I know where I stand... :confused:

[wordslayer©]

Back to a little more legitimate rumors instead of speculation...

http://markbowman.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/red_sox_fans_provide_lowe_some.html

Bowman's saying the Royals are still scouting Francoeur, but we'd have to add significant payroll and take Jose Guillen back. I'm not against upgrading in production with Guillen, but I'm not excited about the prospect of having Jose Guillen in the Braves clubhouse. I mean, if Escobar rubs people the wrong way...I can only imagine Guillen irritating people as well. Only thing that could save the situation would be if Cox can somehow have him behave for the remainder of 2009 and the entirity of 2010.

Let's see if I understand this right.......

We would get the old lunatic, who probably built his stats on steroids, who is declining by the moment, and is astronomically overpaid, but to get this diamond, we have to give up the choir boy, who can't hit a fastball, curveball, change up or slider.

syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?
syphilis?
gonorrhea?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

If the Braves elect to take on Guillen, I'll be shocked. I know guys yak about playing for Cox, and Guillen probably sees that as the fatherland calling, but come on, the guy offers little more than a questionable past to go with sporadic production. I'm pretty much in favor of taking almost anything of value for Fransewer but Guillen? A release seems better.....

[bravos4evr]

Hmmmmm, IF the Royals expect us to take on Guillens payroll, they gotta at least throw us a prospect as well. If they will pay $5 mill of whats owed him, then perhaps we can deal...

Guillen is prolly twice as good as Frenchy, which is like saying you can jump twice as far as that 400 pound guy around the corner....

[KB 34]

No to acquiring Guillen. The Braves are only financially committed to Francoeur for a few more months. (thank you Francoeur for being greedy and not accepting a longterm contract) Guillen is a slightly better bat making 3 times the money for 3 times as long. That's not really an improvement. If the Royals would like to send back their crummiest prospect making nothing though, they have a deal.

[BraveFan]

Who will stay or go from our current roster either during this season or before the beginning of next year.


Staying
Chipper Jones
Brian McCann
Casey Kotchman
Nate McLouth
Jair Jurrjens
Tommy Hanson
Derek Lowe
Kenshin Kawakami
Peter Moylan
Frank Wren

Going
Jeff Francoeur
Garrett Anderson
Jeff Bennett

Could Stay, Could Go
Yunel Escobar
Kelly Johnson
Matt Diaz
Bobby Cox
Terry Pendleton
Mike Gonzalez
Rafael Soriano
Tim Hudson
Javier Vazquez
Bobby Cox

EDIT: Moved to the trade rumors thread. sdp

[BraveFan]

Andruw hit his 8th HR today in San Francisco, I think he would be a great guy to pickup for several reasons.

1. His contract is cheap
2. He won't require top prospects
3. He provides much need pop to the lineup.
4. Attendance- the Braves have been losing attendance and that effects how much $$ Liberty will put into the Braves.
5. Fan Base- I know it isn't the most important factor but with the Glavine and Smoltz situations the Braves have alientated many fans and this could help.
This also relates to attendance.

I know he has Rudy in Texas and plays in a hitters park but those 8HRs would tie with Chipper for the leader of the club and Andruw has those 8HRs in only 122 ABs compared to Chipper's 202 ABs and the 249 ABs of Francoeur who he would replace. Andruw has had less than 1/2 the ABs of Francoeur yet has two times the HRs meaning he would have over 4 times the HRs produced by our current RF.

[BraveFan]

Very interesting set of reasons, but I thought this one was interesting.

How many Braves fans actually would consider this an acceptable nostalgia moment over Glavine and/or Smoltz? I'm not sure how anyone else stands, but I lost a lot of respect for Andruw when he began letting Boras whisper into his ear about testing free agency. It ultimately turned out very nice for us as we only really suffered through 1 crappy Andruw Jones season, but he could've had his chance to stay if he were willing to discuss a reasonable deal with us prior to his bad year and he chose the free agency route (AKA money).

The other side of the coin is...you've conveniently left out his home and away statistics this season. Take away his home numbers and he's not much better than Francoeur.

you have to keep in mind that Andruw left Boras on his own to discuss a deal to stay with the Braves after his first contract was up. The Braves seemed to not want to pay near what Andruw had been worth so he left for more money, can't blame him for that.

[CanadaBravesFan]

If this was already reported I appologize, but I saw this morning that Willy Mo Pena was released my the Muts farm team. His power could help the bench, and his D couldnt be that much worse than GA.

[CharlotteBrave]

Let's talk relief pitching, how do you guys seeing it play out next season?

At this point, I think it'd be great to have Morton, but I do view him as more of a SP rather than RP.

Right now, I view Bennett the same way I viewed Boyer...

Moylan is having a bad season, but we've seen some good stuff from him in the past, so there's still some hope, albeit not that much.

Most fans I've spoken to seem to like (as of now) Medlen, Acosta, Soriano, and Gonzo at their current positions. Most are not entirely sold, nor have given up on O'Flaherty just yet.

What do you guys think is best for our bullpen next season? It seems like the bullpen is what has really killed us in recent years, although this year is the best BP I can remember since Smoltzy was our closer.

[KB 34]

To me Moylan should have spent a couple months on the DL and been activated a few weeks ago. Instead he's among the league leaders in games pitched, which is not a good combination with reocvering from TJ surgery. Next season I see him as a #3 reliever assuming he can get through his ridiculous use right now. Medlen and Acosta make solid #4 and #5 relievers next season. The big question is what the Braves do with Soriano and Gonzalez as free agents. I suspect they'll keep one of them but they really need to keep 1 and get another good reliever, or get two new solid relievers. I'm not sure if that happens but if it does I see the bullpen being fine. The big question remains a cleanup hitter.

[bravos4evr]

any chance that Heyward gets a september callup? Maybe earns a corner spot if he tears it up?

[IkeWagner]

any chance that Heyward gets a september callup? Maybe earns a corner spot if he tears it up?

nope

[Lauren T.]

I don't think so either. Tearing it up at A+ ball isn't the same as tearing it up at AA or AAA. I don't expect to see him in the lineup until 2011, as much as I like the kid.

[Dreamscape]

It would be a bad idea to prematurely start his service time and force yourself to use an option year in 2010 after spring training. And it's not like the Braves would benefit from giving him a few weeks on what will likely be a non-playoff bound team.

[BraveFan]

As far as the pen goes I think the Braves are going to have to bring back atleast one of Soriano and Gonzalez. I favor bringing back Soriano of the two but would be fine with either one coming back, I'd preferr both but not if it harms are chances of signing a bat.

[Devil Wears Prado]

What does the trade market look like right now for a team with a very good reliever (Soriano / Gonzalez) looking for a power-hitting (preferably a righty) batter?

[CharlotteBrave]

Corey Hart and a pitcher for Frenchy... Worth it?

http://www.talkingchop.com

[BraveFan]

The Braves Offense has looked a lot better with Anderson getting in a groove, I think the Braves just need to add more consistency to the lineup meaning replacing Johnson and Francoeur with more consistent bats. I think Prado is perfect guy to replace Johnson, while Martin may not supply the power and may not have the high levels that KJ has he is more consistent and does not go on prolong slumps. While Diaz and Brandon Jones would be upgrades over Francouer I'm not sold they are big enough of an upgrade. My solution is make a deal with Kelly being one of the main pieces for a bat. While we won't be able to get a high paid slugger there are several cheap solutions which would be upgrades.

[Wahoo]

The Braves Offense has looked a lot better with Anderson getting in a groove, I think the Braves just need to add more consistency to the lineup meaning replacing Johnson and Francoeur with more consistent bats. I think Prado is perfect guy to replace Johnson, while Martin may not supply the power and may not have the high levels that KJ has he is more consistent and does not go on prolong slumps. While Diaz and Brandon Jones would be upgrades over Francouer I'm not sold they are big enough of an upgrade. My solution is make a deal with Kelly being one of the main pieces for a bat. While we won't be able to get a high paid slugger there are several cheap solutions which would be upgrades.

Getting rid of Francoeur is an obvious choice, and granted KJ is just flat out having a bad year this year, but just because Prado is "more consistent" doesn't necessarily mean he would be more productive than KJ (or at least prior years' KJ).

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Where is the gamethread?

[BraveFan]

I just thought of two trades the Braves could make that our realistic and would benefit both sides:

1) Kelly Johnson and low level prospect to Brewers for Corey Hart (Hart has struggled in Milwaukee this year and has been rumored to Atlana and with Ricky Weekes out for the season the Brewers could use a 2B, KJ is better than his numbers for 2009 but needs a change of scenery just like Hart)

2) Jeff Francoeur to the Royals for Juan Cruz (Cruz has struggled this year but is a huge upgrade over Bennett and is under contract for next year when Soriano and Gonzalez may walk. The Royals have been scouting Francoeur and Dayton Moore likes him.

[Wahoo]

I just thought of two trades the Braves could make that our realistic and would benefit both sides:

1) Kelly Johnson and low level prospect to Brewers for Corey Hart (Hart has struggled in Milwaukee this year and has been rumored to Atlana and with Ricky Weekes out for the season the Brewers could use a 2B, KJ is better than his numbers for 2009 but needs a change of scenery just like Hart)

2) Jeff Francoeur to the Royals for Juan Cruz (Cruz has struggled this year but is a huge upgrade over Bennett and is under contract for next year when Soriano and Gonzalez may walk. The Royals have been scouting Francoeur and Dayton Moore likes him.

Just say no to Corey Hart. I wouldn't mind that Cruz deal, though. He's got a nice live arm. Has the stuff to be successful in a myriad of roles. I don't see Moore giving him up for an overpaid, valueless player like Francoeur. Well, maybe not valueless, but how much value does a 26 year old "veteran" whose sole asset is "potential.'?

[KB 34]

I'd be fine with the Braves acquiring Hart but they're not getting KJ for him. KJ could be a .400 OBP player, that I'm still convinced of. My best offer is Prado and a prospect. There's simply no risk to acuqiring Hart that I can see beyond front office incompetence which is true of any move. Juan Cruz is a reliever I've wanted for a while and I'd love to see him acquired for a parasite. The Royals can have a couple lower prospects for him. The bottom line is I like Hart and Cruz but there's no chance their teams would accept what I would be willing to give up if I were GM.

[wordslayer©]

A sad day when we are seriously considering either Hart or Cruz.

[bravos4evr]

He at least hits 20 HR's a year!

[KB 34]

A sad day when we are seriously considering either Hart or Cruz.
Depends on the package for them. If it's Francoeur it's a glorious day with parade and celebrations.

[BraveFan]

I'm not even a big fan of Hart I just think at this point KJ and Atlanta aren't a good fit he needs a chance of scenery and the Brewers are one of the few clubs in need of a second basemen and with his struggles I don't see us getting more than Hart for him. I think Cruz is underrated and woud be great to have come in to replace Bennet for this year and possibly take the spot of soriano or gonzo next year.

[bravos4evr]

Cruz plus keeping Soriano would be a nice start!

Really wou;d just need a LOOGY and maybe a setup man depending on how Moylan does the rest of the year.

Loogy
Medlen-longman
Acosta-roogy
Cruz-7th
Moylan-8th
Soriano-close

I guess we could use somebody from the AAA team to fill the last spot out there,

[BraveFan]

I'd like to bring O'Flarhety back as the loogy at this point.

[CanadaBravesFan]

F@CK I HATE BENNETT. Bobby should be fired the next time he brings this loser in. How about we bring in ANYBODY to replace him in the pen. I dont care if we trade for Russ Ortiz, or even bring back Dan Kolb. This is becoming a joke. The guy cant get anybody out and yet pitches every second night.:furious:

[GeneGarberForPrez]

How about Mike Gonzalez for Marlon Byrd and a mid-level prospect? Both guys are free agents at the end of the season. The Braves certainly won't make an effort to re-sign Gonzalez AND Soriano, so get what you can for one of them now. Plus, I think the Braves would have a reasonable chance at signing Byrd for another year or two at a relatively modest price.

The Braves get a steady right handed outfielder with a little power, and the Rangers get a solid left handed reliever. The money is just about a wash.

[BraveFan]

How about Mike Gonzalez for Marlon Byrd and a mid-level prospect? Both guys are free agents at the end of the season. The Braves certainly won't make an effort to re-sign Gonzalez AND Soriano, so get what you can for one of them now. Plus, I think the Braves would have a reasonable chance at signing Byrd for another year or two at a relatively modest price.

The Braves get a steady right handed outfielder with a little power, and the Rangers get a solid left handed reliever. The money is just about a wash.

We should only trade Gonzo for a really good player or prospect. I'd rather get Andruw back over Byrd for Gonzo.

[BraveFan]

I know it was meant as an example of your distaste for Byrd, but that's like an oxymoron...good player and Andruw Jones shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. lol

after last night he has more HRs than anyone on the Braves in less than half the ABs of most all of our starters. I know his Avg is low but all his other stats would be a huge upgrade. No I wouldn't trade Gonzalez for Andruw though.

[wordslayer©]

I heard on the radio a few minutes ago that there was big time news circulating around that a popular manager was going to be fired. Anyone heard who it was? I had to leave before the commercial break came back.

[argentina brave]

I heard on the radio a few minutes ago that there was big time news circulating around that a popular manager was going to be fired. Anyone heard who it was? I had to leave before the commercial break came back.

can't find news anywhere....i know its wishful thinking on yours, and others, around here. :p

[Hobbes]

Bobby will never be fired. They might "mutually agree" for him to leave in the offseason, but he will never be "fired". Also, they would never have him leave midseason.

[wordslayer©]

I really didn't think it was Bobby, although you never know. They freaking used the news as a tease and then run 400 commercials through, so I couldn't hang around long enough to see who it was/would be.

They were probably blowing a lot of smoke making it SEEM like it was some kind of shocker.

[Hillbilly]

I heard on the radio a few minutes ago that there was big time news circulating around that a popular manager was going to be fired. Anyone heard who it was? I had to leave before the commercial break came back.


I really didn't think it was Bobby, although you never know. They freaking used the news as a tease and then run 400 commercials through, so I couldn't hang around long enough to see who it was/would be.

They were probably blowing a lot of smoke making it SEEM like it was some kind of shocker.

It was the manager of the Conoco Station out on Highway 167. :wall:

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

www.mlbtraderumors.com....according to them MLB.Com Twitter says....DeRosa to STL for RP C.Perez and PTBNL...

[BraveFan]

After these last three series I'm conviced that the Braves need MAJOR changes that should be made in the offseason for the most part.

1) Ask Bobby to step aside and give him a job in the front office.
2) Brining in a new coaching staff outside of McDowell who is doing good enough to stay.
3) Let Francoeur, Bennett, and Anderson go
4) Trade Kelly for a reliever to replace either Gonzo or Soriano
5) Re-sign atleast one of our two closers
6) Diaz, Prado, Infante are sticktly bench players
7) Aquire a new RF, LF, and 2B.
8) Keep Vazquez while not picking up Hudson's option and use that $$ to sign free agents

While the Braves need major changes they aren't that far away b/c most losing teams have really bad starting pitching and that is a lot harder to aquire than hitting and the Braves don't have that problem.

[BraveFan]

www.mlbtraderumors.com....according to them MLB.Com Twitter says....DeRosa to STL for RP C.Perez and PTBNL...

While DeRosa may not be worth much in return the Indians could get a lot more b/c there is a huge market for him.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

I'd def get 1 new of, but the 2nd player I'd get whoever's better between 1B and the other of spot....

[BraveFan]

I'd def get 1 new of, but the 2nd player I'd get whoever's better between 1B and the other of spot....

what?? that sentence makes no sense.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

???...how does it not? I said I would def get 1 Outfielder like you mentioned, but instead of def getting 2 outfielders I would look into upgrading First Base instead...

[BraveFan]

???...how does it not? I said I would def get 1 Outfielder like you mentioned, but instead of def getting 2 outfielders I would look into upgrading First Base instead...

Got ya, when you abbrivated Outfield in lower case by typing "of" I thought you were using the word "of" instead of "outfield" . my bad.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

i figured that's what you refering to...it's all cool...

[BraveFan]

I also think the Braves should consider aquiring a 3B and moving Chipper to first base, Larry has looked awful over at third, he has no range any more.

[KB 34]

You worry about details like Chipper after you have an outfield that can hit the back worth a lick and includes a cleanup hitter. If there's money left luxuries can be evaluated. Right now I could care less about defense at 3B.

[wordslayer©]

You worry about details like Chipper after you have an outfield that can hit the back worth a lick and includes a cleanup hitter. If there's money left luxuries can be evaluated. Right now I could care less about defense at 3B.

LOL...good post.

[bravos4evr]

Trade rumor: Frenchy to Royals for spare parts and a free oil change, KJ to Cards for Ankiiel, Braves still finish .500 but we get a type A draft pick from Ankiel leaving.

Braves will spenbd the $$ they have left for Holliday, I just fel it in my bones. Meanwhile Frenchy gets non-tendered if he can't get trade in above scenarion, and we bring up Heyard in ST to ascertain if he's ready yet!

[KB 34]

And Schafer magically disappeared from the front and center outfield picture? If Heyward is called up next season I predict he to will fall off the face of the Earth to Braves fans because he struggles. I'm going to predict the Braves correctly don't sign Holliday. He's going to get a nice check and the Braves won't have the money to correctly go after him.

[Dreamscape]

And for that matter, do the Braves want to spend heavily on a guy who has been not very impressive in his first non-Coors Field year? Yes, Oakland is about as opposite as you can get from Coors and changing a league can be tough, but does that truly explain an OPS that hovers around .800?

The Braves can't afford to take chances with their limited funds. Sure, you can throw Anderson $2.5M and hope he produces, but when there is a significant portion of your payroll on the line, he better produce. I don't think Holliday is that type of player for the Braves.

[bravos4evr]

I'm not suggesting that we sign Holliday! Not at all. I'm just listing what I think WILL happen. I think that we will make a big run at Holliday. If they sign him , i reckon that would make Mclouth expendable come 2011.

I think we are better of obtaining offense via the trade route and spend any $$$ we have fortifying our pen. But that's just me. I ain't BC, FW and JS!

[quick]

I think we need to focus on Adam Dunn. About 40/100 every year and with a team that surely wants to make a trade. We could put Reyes, Medlin, Morton, KJ, Frenchy, and one or two minor league position players in a pool, let them take two or three, and then move on. Heck, we could even trade Lowe and Frenchy for Dunn, who is signed through 2010. The Nats need help almost everywhere.

Dunn has a .396 OBP, .518 slugging. He has 19 HR and 53 RBI currently.

Then, based on VORP numbers, we put Dunn in LF and run out Nate, Diaz, Dunn, with Chip, Esco, Infante and Prado/Ross, with Mac behind the plate. We could score some runs then.

By the way, Dunn has the 6th best VORP of all right fielders in baseball, behind only Braun, Ibanez, Bay, Crawford and Damon. And I see no way any of those guys are available.

[bravos4evr]

Dunn Mclouth and Diaz would not be too hot of a fielding OF tho!!!! If Shafer was in CF, Dun in LF and Mclouth in RF I could deal with that! Mclouth would have above average range in RF which would allow Shafer to cheat towards LF a touch to help out the Big Donkey a little bit. I bet that OF would be above average defensiviley even with Dunn.

The former scenario would be near the bottom in fielding I'm afraid!

[bravos4evr]

Apparently the Nationals are targeting Schafer in their search for an under control speedy outfielder.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/06/nationals-scouting-outfield-options.html


Of course unless Zimmerman is involved, they ain't getting Schafer!

[quick]

Dunn Mclouth and Diaz would not be too hot of a fielding OF tho!!!! If Shafer was in CF, Dun in LF and Mclouth in RF I could deal with that! Mclouth would have above average range in RF which would allow Shafer to cheat towards LF a touch to help out the Big Donkey a little bit. I bet that OF would be above average defensiviley even with Dunn.

The former scenario would be near the bottom in fielding I'm afraid!


You are probably right about def against league average, but we need offense. Man, do we need offense!

As corner outfield spots are good power spots, I would go with Dunn. And remember, Dunn is not the 4 or 5 year solution--he is this year's solution, and for 2010. Ultimately, we'll have in about 2 years McL, Sch and Heyward, L to R. We just can't screw up and trade any of them away.

Also, is there any way Dunn is worse in LF than Gar-Rat? No way. The Ratman is by all appearances the worst LF in baseball. Diaz should be sufficient in RF when compared to Francoeur on def. You can always put in BJones as a late inning def replacement for either Dunn or Diaz.

But, your point is well taken. This year, McLouth would have to be on his horse at all times.

[BraveFan]

How about Alex Rios? Apparently the Jays maybe willing to move him and not for much. Rios for Medlen

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/jays-may-finally-act-on-slumping-stars/article1200104/

[quick]

How about Alex Rios? Apparently the Jays maybe willing to move him and not for much. Rios for Medlen

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/jays-may-finally-act-on-slumping-stars/article1200104/


Rios' average/OPS/ and SLG are:

.263.321.423

That is pretty rough for a power spot. That is pretty much another McLouth, whose numbers are:

.264.323.448

Of course, CF is not the power position LF or RF is. I guess it would be an upgrade from Francoeur on offense, a little, but not really much better than GA, who is

.284.312.411

I personally would rather get that big power bat in the lineup--hence my favoring Dunn. He may have his issues, but no one doubts he has power. He would cause people to reevaluate how they pitch to the rest of our lineup. Few would walk Chipper to get to Dunn, I should think. Dunn also has a pretty good OPS considering he strikes out a lot.

[BraveFan]

Rios' average/OPS/ and SLG are:

.263.321.423

That is pretty rough for a power spot. That is pretty much another McLouth, whose numbers are:

.264.323.448

Of course, CF is not the power position LF or RF is. I guess it would be an upgrade from Francoeur on offense, a little, but not really much better than GA, who is

.284.312.411

I personally would rather get that big power bat in the lineup--hence my favoring Dunn. He may have his issues, but no one doubts he has power. He would cause people to reevaluate how they pitch to the rest of our lineup. Few would walk Chipper to get to Dunn, I should think. Dunn also has a pretty good OPS considering he strikes out a lot.


There is two problems with getting Dunn:

1) His contract- he is making 10M this year and for next year- the Braves would have to trade Vazquez to afford that contract.
2) The Nats probably wouldn't want Vazquez so it would be a three team deal and the Nats are asking for a lot in terms of prospects and I don't want to trade Schafer for him.

[CanadaBravesFan]

How about Alex Rios? Apparently the Jays maybe willing to move him and not for much. Rios for Medlen

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/jays-may-finally-act-on-slumping-stars/article1200104/

Id love to get Rios in a trade. Having a bad year but is much better than Frenchy and has a bit of speed to boot.

[Dreamscape]

A big NO to Alexis Rios. He's had a couple of good years, a couple of average campaigns, and some rather weak years. The rest of his contract looks like this...
2010 - $9.7M
2011-2012 - $12M
2013-2014 - $12M

Add in his no-trade provision for 09-10.

And again, he's not worth that money. When a team is trying to "give" away a player, it is for two reasons 19 times out of 20. He's either really wore out his welcome or he is overpaid.

[CanadaBravesFan]

A big NO to Alexis Rios. He's had a couple of good years, a couple of average campaigns, and some rather weak years. The rest of his contract looks like this...
2010 - $9.7M
2011-2012 - $12M
2013-2014 - $12M

Add in his no-trade provision for 09-10.

And again, he's not worth that money. When a team is trying to "give" away a player, it is for two reasons 19 times out of 20. He's either really wore out his welcome or he is overpaid.

Yeah with that contract status, he can go elsewhere!

[BraveFan]

A big NO to Alexis Rios. He's had a couple of good years, a couple of average campaigns, and some rather weak years. The rest of his contract looks like this...
2010 - $9.7M
2011-2012 - $12M
2013-2014 - $12M

Add in his no-trade provision for 09-10.

And again, he's not worth that money. When a team is trying to "give" away a player, it is for two reasons 19 times out of 20. He's either really wore out his welcome or he is overpaid.

okay never mind, i thought he would be making a lot less than that.

[quick]

There is two problems with getting Dunn:

1) His contract- he is making 10M this year and for next year- the Braves would have to trade Vazquez to afford that contract.
2) The Nats probably wouldn't want Vazquez so it would be a three team deal and the Nats are asking for a lot in terms of prospects and I don't want to trade Schafer for him.

But, if you traded Lowe to the Nats and the Braves picked up the amount of Lowe's contract over Dunn's (15 MM over 10 MM) until the end of 2010, its a financial wash to both clubs except for Lowe's last year, and you could throw in one pitching prospect (Reyes, Medlin or Morton?) and the Nats should be happy, I should think. One good AA "everyday" prospect could go, too, if necessary to do the deal.

[hoosjon]

Problem with Lowe for Dunn is that I see the Nats wanting to dump payroll and obtain prospects. I think that way neither of us gets what we want. btw, I'm thinking that we want a big bat without the cost of prospects.

I like the idea of a 3 team Vasquez trade to get someone like Dunn or Jermaine Dye .... but I've never been able to tell how teams work crap like that out. I'd assume the middle team would want Javy II and would give up prospects to the ChiSox or the Nats.

[slowride]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/209898-sources-say-braves-escobar-may-be-on-the-trading-block

"Reports have began to surface that the Braves may once again be trying to trade short stop Yunel Escobar. Back in November the internet was buzzing with stories of the Braves attempting to trade Escobar, usually to St.Louis, and then pursuing former Braves short stop Rafael Furcal.

This time, it isn't clear who the Braves would like to acquire, or even why Escobar is being shopped. He is batting .281, has 39 RBI (good enough for fourth among short stops), seven HR (top ten at SS), and has crossed the plate 39 times. The only offensive category Yunel may lag in when compared to other MLB shortstops is stolen bases of which he only has three.

It appeared with the acqusition of Nate McClouth the Braves were headed in the right direction, back to their 1990's form, however this baffling move leaves one to wonder if this is the same Braves we have had the displeasure of watching the last four years."

[Hobbes]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/209898-sources-say-braves-escobar-may-be-on-the-trading-block

"Reports have began to surface that the Braves may once again be trying to trade short stop Yunel Escobar. Back in November the internet was buzzing with stories of the Braves attempting to trade Escobar, usually to St.Louis, and then pursuing former Braves short stop Rafael Furcal.

This time, it isn't clear who the Braves would like to acquire, or even why Escobar is being shopped. He is batting .281, has 39 RBI (good enough for fourth among short stops), seven HR (top ten at SS), and has crossed the plate 39 times. The only offensive category Yunel may lag in when compared to other MLB shortstops is stolen bases of which he only has three.

It appeared with the acqusition of Nate McClouth the Braves were headed in the right direction, back to their 1990's form, however this baffling move leaves one to wonder if this is the same Braves we have had the displeasure of watching the last four years."

Obviously written by somebody who knows nothing about the Braves. They saw Escobar's name being discussed as trade bait and checked the stat sheet, then started shaking their head. Any Brave fan can tell you why he would be shopped.

[Andy G.]

The bleacher report is a sight where anybody can go on there and write an article, isn't it? I've read a few articles from that site, and each time I found that whoever wrote it knows little to nothing about what they're writing about, and almost all of them are pretending to be some sort of expert.

Also, does anybody here think Escobar won't be traded before next season? It seems inevitable to me.

[luvdembravos]

Now I'm confused :confused: Stats are everything, right? The numbers don't lie.

[Andy G.]

Now I'm confused :confused: Stats are everything, right? The numbers don't lie.
I don't think anybody would say he isn't a pretty good player. He just does the things that piss off Bobby Cox and a lot of other managers in baseball. It was only a matter of time before he either changed his ways or got on Bobby's bad side.

[Lauren T.]

Now I'm confused :confused: Stats are everything, right? The numbers don't lie.
Let's pretend like Yunie is working in an office. He's on time every morning, rarely makes mistakes in his work, and is generally a productive employee.

In a meeting, he's presenting some of his latest work, and the Big Boss points out an error. Yunie yells, "That's BULL****!" at the Big Boss and proceeds to pout for the rest of the meeting. His manager pulls him aside and has a discussion with him about his professionalism, but his attitude is unchanging.

Would you want to work with this guy?

There's more to life than performance. He's paid for performance, and in a way, so are all of us who have jobs. Anyone can lose his or her job over acting immature and unprofessional, no matter what industry you're in or how good you are at what you do.

[slowride]

Obviously written by somebody who knows nothing about the Braves. They saw Escobar's name being discussed as trade bait and checked the stat sheet, then started shaking their head. Any Brave fan can tell you why he would be shopped.

I disagree with much of the article as well. I saw on the side of ESPN that Escobar was being shopped; however, since I don't have Insider access (which I think is bs), I couldn't read what they had to say.

Perhaps the better route would have been to simply post "ESPN is stating Escobar is on the block."

[BigWorm]

I'm an ESPN insider, because of valuable up to the minute info for fantasy football, basically it's free with a subscription to ESPN the Magazine, which isn't a bad read most of the time anyway. Anywho, the tidbit about Escobar is written by Buster Olney and states that he's been out of the lineup for the past four days due to an injury and an attitude problem (which we knew anyway). He said the Braves would trade him for an outfield bat. Probably not a bad assessment.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

BFH!! I'm curious, and you seem well informed on this front, are there any possible fits as far as productive bats on the Indians' roster? They used to have an abundance of bats and a lot less pitching. Any chance for a trade there? A pitcher or middle infielder for a solid hitting outfielder?

[BraveFan]

BFH!! I'm curious, and you seem well informed on this front, are there any possible fits as far as productive bats on the Indians' roster? They used to have an abundance of bats and a lot less pitching. Any chance for a trade there? A pitcher or middle infielder for a solid hitting outfielder?

How about Victor Martinez who can take over at 1B for Kotchman and provide much need offense at that position. He can also catch if need be which would allow greater flexibility in the later innings. He is making 5.7M this year and has a 7m club option which the Braves could afford to pickup if they trade away Kotchman in the deal for him and non tender Francoeur if they can't get Cleveland to take him in a trade. I say Escobar and Medlen for Martinez and Cabrera.

[KB 34]

For crying out loud, Kotchman is the least of the Braves problems right now. The Braves have two legitimate AAA outfielders in their starting lineup, fix the gaping hole in the side of the ship, not the pin hole in the table cloth. Furthermore the Braves already have one All Star catcher and the last I checked that's basically pretty impressive.

[Chris_Moderato]

Not a trade rumor, but...

How can you not love Kelly Johnson, the teammate, after reading this? (I'll refrain from juxtaposing these comments with Frenchy's from last year when he was sent down.)

Kelly Reacts to Being Sent Down (http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2009/07/01/atlanta_braves_notes.html)

[KB 34]

That makes me proud of KJ. He isn't crying, he isn't moaning, he isn't complaining about how his relationship with the organization is unrepairable. KJ is saying he sucks and needs to change it. I'd now like to have everyone take a moment to laugh at Rodger's best Bobby Cox impersonation in saying KJ isn't a platoon candidate because of his struggles. His OPS this season says it all. Against righties it's .534 and against lefties it's .938. Oh wait, the Braves only consider platoons based on which hand the batter uses to swing the bat. They're swingists of the worst type and I for one believe KJ needs more at bats against lefties, not fewer, as has been Braves strategy for much of 3 years.

[BraveFan]

That makes me proud of KJ. He isn't crying, he isn't moaning, he isn't complaining about how his relationship with the organization is unrepairable. KJ is saying he sucks and needs to change it. I'd now like to have everyone take a moment to laugh at Rodger's best Bobby Cox impersonation in saying KJ isn't a platoon candidate because of his struggles. His OPS this season says it all. Against righties it's .534 and against lefties it's .938. Oh wait, the Braves only consider platoons based on which hand the batter uses to swing the bat. They're swingists of the worst type and I for one believe KJ needs more at bats against lefties, not fewer, as has been Braves strategy for much of 3 years.

I think its best for both parties for the Braves and Johnson to part ways. I think the Braves have harmed his growth but I don't see him being a success in Atlanta anytime soon. I think despite his struggles he could be a decent trade piece along side some prospects for a hitter. I just don't see him ever being consistent enough here and with the way he has been shuffeled in and out of the lineup he can't be consistent and with the way Prado is playing KJ won't get the ABs needed to be consistent. I think the Braves have jerked him around but at the sametime he hasn't played well enough for it to be the Braves fault.

[Murphys#1Fan]

I think its best for both parties for the Braves and Johnson to part ways. I think the Braves have harmed his growth but I don't see him being a success in Atlanta anytime soon. I think despite his struggles he could be a decent trade piece along side some prospects for a hitter. I just don't see him ever being consistent enough here and with the way he has been shuffeled in and out of the lineup he can't be consistent and with the way Prado is playing KJ won't get the ABs needed to be consistent. I think the Braves have jerked him around but at the sametime he hasn't played well enough for it to be the Braves fault.


Absolutely :thumbsup:

[BraveFan]

I doubt any of us thought that Yunel and Kelly would be gone and now it appears there is a good shot that both could be wearing other uniforms by the trade deadline.

[Chris_Moderato]

The Braves should do Kelly a favor and send him to Boston or Oakland. Seems like he'd thrive in either of those places, if anywhere.

[BraveFan]

The Braves should do Kelly a favor and send him to Boston or Oakland. Seems like he'd thrive in either of those places, if anywhere.

Maybe in Oakland but where would he play in Boston? Maybe they could play him at 3B if Lowell is hurt for long but I think Oakland is a really good fit.

[BigWorm]

The only place KJ would "thrive" would be the Atlanta Men's League.

[Chris_Moderato]

The only place KJ would "thrive" would be the Atlanta Men's League.

Hater.

[bmitm76]

Not a trade rumor, but...

How can you not love Kelly Johnson, the teammate, after reading this? (I'll refrain from juxtaposing these comments with Frenchy's from last year when he was sent down.)

Kelly Reacts to Being Sent Down (http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2009/07/01/atlanta_braves_notes.html)

In his on AB last night he really ripped a line drive too. Just right to the right fielder. KJ is just a baseball player in its best terminology.

[Dreamscape]

I have faith that in the right situation, he can be quite productive. Whether that situation will develop in Atlanta, I am not so sure. But you have to be happy with how he has taken everything in stride. It would be real easy to go on a blamefest, but instead, he simply says I'm sucking right now and all I want to do is help this team.

[BigWorm]

I have faith that in the right situation, he can be quite productive. Whether that situation will develop in Atlanta, I am not so sure. But you have to be happy with how he has taken everything in stride. It would be real easy to go on a blamefest, but instead, he simply says I'm sucking right now and all I want to do is help this team.

This is what drives me crazy about you Dreamster (and all your dreamanmaniacs)..joke, ok bad one.. earlier this week, you were quick to make fun of Tommy Hanson for saying all the right things. You brushed it off as "he's just trying to look good" and now that KJ is saying the right things, he's the definition of professionalism. KJ is a stand up guy, he really acts like a major leaguer. It's just a shame that all professionals don't act like KJ and Tommy Hanson. They have the best job in the world and they should all act graceful to be in that position. I wish KJ luck, but I just don't have the faith. I ran out of KJ koolade sometime in the 2007 season. I never bought any more.

But let's not act like KJ is some great dude because he's "doing what's best for the team" they should all do that, all of the time.

[Andy G.]

The situations are different. Kelly's acting like that when things are tough, which is when it's most difficult to act like a pro. It's easy to say the right things when things are going well(though I never took anything away from Hanson's comments. He seems like a good guy to me).

[Murphys#1Fan]

For all the Kelly fans...he's headed to the DL because of wrist tendenitis.

[Dreamscape]

The situations are different. Kelly's acting like that when things are tough, which is when it's most difficult to act like a pro. It's easy to say the right things when things are going well(though I never took anything away from Hanson's comments. He seems like a good guy to me).
And bingo was his name-o. It's easy to say the right things when things are great, but when things are horrible, the real person comes out. We saw the real Jeff Francoeur. We've seen the real Kelly Johnson. If Hanson struggled horribly and was demoted to the pen and said these things, I would be fairly amazed with his professionalism and how he deals with adversity.

That's not to say I don't love Hanson because my record on him is pretty clear.

[ScooterBrave]

So, let me get this straight. We are picking on young Hanson because he said the RIGHT things instead of acting like a cocky, snotty young man, which most others in his position would do?

Sometimes I don't get you guys.

[Andy G.]

So, let me get this straight. We are picking on young Hanson because he said the RIGHT things instead of acting like a cocky, snotty young man, which most others in his position would do?

Sometimes I don't get you guys.
Nobody picked on Hanson. All Dream said was that Hanson was saying all the right things, using the cliches, when asked about how well he's pitched this year. Dream didn't say anything about his character, he only thought that using those cliches in a time when everything was going pretty well said little about his character and more about his media skills.

Some of us do believe that Kelly Johnson's comments about wanting to do whatever he can to help the team reflect positively on his character. He's in a crappy situation. He hasn't played well and has lost his job as the second baseman. It's not as easy to say the right things and continue to be a good teammate in a time like that.

[argentina brave]

read on mlbtraderumors about o'brien saying that cox and wren are perhaps discussing trading vasquez. obviously, if we fall out of contention, this is a possibility, but otherwise, i think this is a grave error.

i'd like to see how our hitting pans out the next couple of weeks. i'd be willing to wait to the bitter end of the trading deadline, b/c there is a distinct possibility that, with mclouth healthy, anderson, diaz, and prado beginning to hit with consistency, and blanco coming off the bench as a spark plug, we really may be okay out in the OF.

when i say 'okay', i mean, relative to the great asset that we have in the rotation, with the lights out pitching of vasquez, jurrjens, and even hanson. if lowe can right the ship, we may have enough offense to go into the playoffs.

[ATL2123]

Buster Olney pretty much echoing the Braves interests in shopping Vazquez and Escobar
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4305723&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fe ntryID%3d4305723%26name%3dolney_buster

Although Vazquez has been a valuable commodity for us, he could be a huge bargaining chip for a team looking for pitching, and with Hudson supposedly coming back by the end of the month, we could get another power bat for Vazquez

[Chris_Moderato]

I would feel a whole lot better if we made a move for a power hitter, even if it costs us a Vazquez. Javy is having a very good year so far, which leads me to believe he may come back down to earth a bit in the second half. It might be prime time to deal him soon.

I think we need to be ready and able to contend with any and all of the guys who are playing over their heads coming back down to their average level of play. I think we'll see what this team is really made of as the next month unfolds. They've stayed in striking distance while playing sub-.500 ball most of the season. Now they need to come together and make their move. I hope that this is the start of it.

Go Braves!

[BraveFan]

Buster Olney pretty much echoing the Braves interests in shopping Vazquez and Escobar
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4305723&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fe ntryID%3d4305723%26name%3dolney_buster

Although Vazquez has been a valuable commodity for us, he could be a huge bargaining chip for a team looking for pitching, and with Hudson supposedly coming back by the end of the month, we could get another power bat for Vazquez


I think any deal involving Vazquez would have to be a 3 team deal. I don't see a team in need of Vazquez's services that has a power bat we want. I would say the Rangers but they are in the middle of trying to sell the team and won't add salary. I want Dye but Vazquez isn't going back to Chicago.

[argentina brave]

i'm a little hesitant about penciling in hudson at this pt. for anything....until i've seen him pitch, know his durability, i've be very cautious about trading an innings-eating, strikeout machine like vasquez.

[JESouth10]

I dont like the idea of trading vasquez either, thats why i would like to see what kind of bat we could get for Kawakami, i like him and all but i just see vasquez as being more productive piece in atlanta for a playoff push.

[Andy G.]

I dont like the idea of trading vasquez either, thats why i would like to see what kind of bat we could get for Kawakami, i like him and all but i just see vasquez as being more productive piece in atlanta for a playoff push.
Sweet. New member. Welcome to chopnation. Post often!:thumbsup:

[slowride]

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4305723&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fe ntryID%3d4305723%26name%3dolney_buster

[Murphys#1Fan]

Big mistake trading Yunel IMHO. Who's going to take his place...either at his position on the field or in the lineup? The Braves brass and management needs to learn to deal with whatever shortcomings he brings to the table but they are far outweighed by the way he fields his position and his bat. Vasquez however I'm all for giving up for a bat but not for a 2 month rental. Assuming Hudson is ready...which according to managment...he's more than ready...then let's get a big bat and win this thing.

[luvdembravos]

If the Braves stay this hot up to the all star break, I don't think they'll be making any moves before July 31st. Taking KJ and Francoeur out of the everday line-up are the key moves we needed to make IMO.

[JESouth10]

thanks andy g, i"ll try to post as much as i can

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I fear trading Yunie also. We have him under control thorugh 2013! But We need a power bat if we're going to make any noise this season. the 2 players I wold really want to se us acquire are Adrian Gonzalez or Matt Kemp. Dodgers need someone like Javy and the Padres need someoen like Yunie and young pitching. I would even consider trading heyward for Adrian, if it wasn't for us having such holes in the outfield. I think we could get Kemp and some good prospects for Javy and Shaefer. But not sure if I like that price. Either way, we have to get some power in our line-up if we're going to make the playoffs and do anything. IMO

[Chris_Moderato]

I dont like the idea of trading vasquez either, thats why i would like to see what kind of bat we could get for Kawakami, i like him and all but i just see vasquez as being more productive piece in atlanta for a playoff push.

Welcome!

I doubt anyone is going to take Kawakami off our hands for us. We just invested what, $21M in him for the next three years? No one is going to take us off the hook for that one, at least not for anything worthwhile.

[slowride]

Welcome!

I doubt anyone is going to take Kawakami off our hands for us. We just invested what, $21M in him for the next three years? No one is going to take us off the hook for that one, at least not for anything worthwhile.

How about a bag of peanuts? I'd rather just have the money freed up.