PDA

View Full Version : Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, or Pedro Martinez?


jamminHANES
01-06-2010, 12:15 PM
In the past two winters two of the top pitchers of the past twenty years have retired. Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson could not have had more opposite styles or personalities on the mound. Effectiveness, however, is something they shared. A player not far behind them and also likely to retire in the next few seasons is Pedro Martinez. These are the three best pitchers of this generation(Clemens and his steroid use voids his argument). They will go down as three of the top pitchers of all time and will easily be first ballot Hall of Famers.

Maddux did it with intelligence and movement. He was able to put break on his pitches with only the pressure of his fingers. Maddux was always so many steps in front of the hitters and he has the best pitching mind to ever step on a mound. Throughout his career he earned four straight Cy Young awards and put together a streak of seven seasons with an ERA+ over 162. During those 226 games, Maddux posted a 2.15 ERA and a sub 1.00 WHIP. The most intriguing stat during those seven seasons is that he managed to only walk 269 batters over the course of 1,675 innings. He could put his backdoor two seamer and changeup exactly where he wanted it nearly every time.

Johnson did it with power and intimidation. The 6"10 southpaw was the tallest pitcher to ever step on a major league mound and retires as one of the top two left handed pitchers to ever live. Left handed batters never stood a chance against "The Big Unit's" side-arm delivery and devastating slider. Throughout his career lefties had an OPS of .571 and hit only 25 home runs off him. 25 home runs in 21 seasons, impressive to say the least. He retires with the second most strikeouts behind only Nolan Ryan and the top K/9 of any pitcher, ever.

Pedro did it with electricity and charisma. His years with Boston were incredible. Five times he had an ERA+ over 200 and four were with the Red Sox. He won three Cy Young Awards and lead Boston to its first world series in over 80 years. Pedro was not there to be anyones friend and his feud with the Yankees is one of the most memorable rivalries to ever culminate in baseball. His strikeout numbers, while not as lofty as Johnson's, were still inexplicable to come from a man of such small stature. Baseball-Reference has Pedro listed at 5"11 and 170 lbs, the smallest man to strike out 300 batters in the live ball era. In a generation fueled by steroids, one of its most prolific and dominant players was the size of most high schoolers.

So who is the best? As a Braves blogger it would be expected for me to chose Maddux and be done with it. However I have a very difficult time saying that any pitcher since Kofax is as good as Pedro Martinez. His career ERA, ERA+, and WHIP are substantially lower than his two competitors. Although his wins total is only at 219 compared to Johnson's 303 and Maddux's 355, most of that is due to injury in his latter years. Pedro at his best was better than Maddux and Johnson at their best, simple as that.

The Rap
01-06-2010, 12:28 PM
Suffice it to say that all of them are true legendary greats and be done with it because otherwise you are just going to go in circles with everyone throiwing in someting. I think a better question is who is the greatest lefty of all time? Koufax with the short menu of greatness? Carlton? The one I always thought was the overall best? Or Randy? For all the obvious reasons.

barvos4evr
01-06-2010, 01:41 PM
I think that if you are picking out who had the best 5 year run, then it's Pedro. But greatness is really who had the greatest career. I think it's Maddux. He has put up amazing stats without the benefit of a 95mph fastball. He was a real "pitcher" and IMO, is one of the top ten pitchers of all time easy.
Randy is a top 3 lefty(with Spahn and Koufax, Carlton close behind) but he could have days where he was just terrible, Maddux rarely had terrible days during the 10-12 years of his really really good streak.I also think they both stuck around just a few years too long...but it's hard to let go.

The way I see it, Pedro has had the 3rd best career, he may have been the most dominant of the three for a 5 year period, but you can't say those 5 years trump 20+ years of major league pitching that includes many dominant years and many more really really good years.

wordslayerŠ
01-09-2010, 05:09 PM
I think this is a good question.

I look at it like this....if I were the GM of a ball club and I could start my team with any of those players, which would I choose? A young Johnson, Maddux or Martinez?

Well, my goal as a GM would choose the player that is going to make my job the easiest as it can be. I immediately kick out Martinez, because he just isn't going to do the job long enough. I want my choice to be good for a long time.

That leaves Johnson and Maddux. I really like Johnson, but the bottom line is this.....Maddux is just too consistent....too good.....for so long. He is going to give me the most wiggle room for any potential mistakes I might make.

With Maddux, you are spotting your ball club 16 to 20 wins before you really do anything. if you set your goal for at least 90 wins a season, you have, in essence, by just having Maddux on your team, made it to where you only have to find ~70 more wins to reach your goal.

Maddux led the league in innings pitched five straight years, and seven times led the league in games started. Maddux won at least 15 games 17 years in a row and threw at least 200 innings 14 straight seasons. If you are a GM, then this is the stuff that you can only dream about. As good as Johnson is, Maddux is the guy I'm signing.

The Rap
01-09-2010, 09:28 PM
I think Maddux is greater than people credit him for. The thing he is missing is strikeouts. But they play a greater role in the impression the pitcher makes. However, a strikeout has no more value than a putout. I once read an analysis of the best 5 consecutive years between Koufax and Maddux and it was exrensively and in depth and was surprised to see that Maddux was the clear winner. Part of the reason is that Koufax pitched in an era where he was the best of the best as there were so many other superlative pitcher around then. Maddux did his pitching in the juiced up era when so many player were essentially cheating and offensive numbers were exploding.

FrankEC
01-09-2010, 10:03 PM
I think Maddux is greater than people credit him for. The thing he is missing is strikeouts. But they play a greater role in the impression the pitcher makes. However, a strikeout has no more value than a putout. I once read an analysis of the best 5 consecutive years between Koufax and Maddux and it was exrensively and in depth and was surprised to see that Maddux was the clear winner. Part of the reason is that Koufax pitched in an era where he was the best of the best as there were so many other superlative pitcher around then. Maddux did his pitching in the juiced up era when so many player were essentially cheating and offensive numbers were exploding.

Actually Rap, Maddux ranks 10th all time with 3,371 strike outs.

Dreamscape
01-09-2010, 10:39 PM
One of the things that bravos mentions is completely true. At his peak, Pedro Martinez may have been the best pitcher in baseball history. Between 1999 and 2003, while pitching IN Fenway and IN the AL East, his average adjusted ERA was 227. Essentially, he was 127% better than the league average when you take in account the park he pitched in. His 2000 season of an adjusted ERA of 291 was the second best of all time. Only Tim Keefe in 1880 did better. Maddux holds the fourth and fifth best.

The best? Again, bravos is right. Maddux has the best career, though Pedro was the most dominating pitcher of our time.

The Rap
01-10-2010, 01:32 AM
Yea Frank, I know that. But consider that as a result of pitching longevity and not being considered a strikeout pitcher. Similar to Warren Spahn although Spahnie once led the NL in K's with 191 (If I recall correctly) but that was earliy in his career. The most amazing thing about Spahn is that he didn't win his first game until he was 26 and that he had his arguably best year at the age of 43.

Hobbes
01-10-2010, 09:46 AM
The most amazing thing about Spahn is that he didn't win his first game until he was 26 and that he had his arguably best year at the age of 43.
Steroids!

FrankEC
01-10-2010, 10:21 AM
Yea Frank, I know that. But consider that as a result of pitching longevity and not being considered a strikeout pitcher. Similar to Warren Spahn although Spahnie once led the NL in K's with 191 (If I recall correctly) but that was earliy in his career. The most amazing thing about Spahn is that he didn't win his first game until he was 26 and that he had his arguably best year at the age of 43.

Rap, I was simply responding to your assertion that the thing Maddux was missing is strike outs. I guess my point is that the people who don't consider Maddux a strikeout pitcher are mistaken. Even when you take into consideration the length of his career, he still averaged nearly 150 Ks a year. What he didn't do was intimidate people like Pedro or Johnson did. The man was more than capable of striking people out, though.

Hobbes
01-10-2010, 12:00 PM
Rap, I was simply responding to your assertion that the thing Maddux was missing is strike outs. I guess my point is that the people who don't consider Maddux a strikeout pitcher are mistaken. Even when you take into consideration the length of his career, he still averaged nearly 150 Ks a year. What he didn't do was intimidate people like Pedro or Johnson did. The man was more than capable of striking people out, though.
Considering that he so often pitched to contact as well, his strikeout total is all the more impressive.

The Rap
01-10-2010, 01:45 PM
Steroids? That was a joke right because there is no way Spahnie was juicing.

luvdembravos
01-10-2010, 02:15 PM
Steroids? That was a joke right because there is no way Spahnie was juicing.


How will we ever know? He didn't use a smiley face or write LOL. :rolleyes:

Dreamscape
01-10-2010, 02:36 PM
How will we ever know? He didn't use a smiley face or write LOL. :rolleyes:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HH5XVQCQL._SL500_AA280_.jpg