Hall of Fame Votes

[The Rap]

I have been studying the current crop of candidates. I have thrown in the towel on Dale Murphy's chances to get in. I also believe that Bert Blyleven and Andre Dawson should merit serious consideration. The only one I think should make it this year is Roberto Alomar. The two greatest second-basemen I have ever seen were Joe Morgan and Robby. The latter has only one blemish to his record and that is that incident with the umpire. Biut it needs to be overlooked especially when Alomar and the umpire have kissed and made up. Morgan is lucky his broadcasting career essentially started after he was already in. Ugh!

The guy I can't see getting in who is getting a lot of press is Barry Larkin. The guy was terrific but I think fits right in with the crowd of players who just fall short of making it.

[wordslayer©]

I have been studying the current crop of candidates. I have thrown in the towel on Dale Murphy's chances to get in. I also believe that Bert Blyleven and Andre Dawson should merit serious consideration. The only one I think should make it this year is Roberto Alomar. The two greatest second-basemen I have ever seen were Joe Morgan and Robby. The latter has only one blemish to his record and that is that incident with the umpire. Biut it needs to be overlooked especially when Alomar and the umpire have kissed and made up. Morgan is lucky his broadcasting career essentially started after he was already in. Ugh!

The guy I can't see getting in who is getting a lot of press is Barry Larkin. The guy was terrific but I think fits right in with the crowd of players who just fall short of making it.

Barry Larkin would have a front row seat if I were voting. Blyleven should, obviously, be in. Alomar should be in. Andre Dawson shouldn't even be allowed to sell concessions at the Hall of Fame.

[FrankEC]

Man, if a guy like Barry Larkin can't make the Hall of Fame, what's the point of having the thing. No, he doesn't have the sexy counting stats that everybody looks at, but the guy was a machine for a short stop. He was a 12 time all star, 9 time Silver Slugger, 3 time Gold Glover, and an MVP. From 1989 to 2001 he only had 2 years with an OBP below .370. Six times he had an OBP above .390. Eight times he had an OPS+ above 120 as a shortstop.

He is definitely a guy I would look past the counting stats and vote in.

[Dreamscape]

Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Trammell, and Raines make my ballot.

[bravos4evr]

The only prob I have with Raines is that he's Dale Murphy with less dingers and more stolen bases..... I dunno, I've always looked at Raines ,Dawson and the Murph as similar players who if one gets in they all should get in....

Blyleven is my shoe in, Alomar and Larkin as well. Trammell.....that's right on the edge for me, I think he makes the HOF worse (as modern players go) and thats my cutoff... Kinda why I didn't like Jim Rice getting in.

[The Rap]

OK I thought over what I wrote and Alomar and Blyeleven should be in. Larkin yes but maybe not the first time. I am a big believer in Murph getting in and that is why I am not into Raines, Dawson or Trammel for that matter.

[ScooterBrave]

I think if Larkin is in, Murph should be in, even more so than Dawson.

Raines I think should definitely be in. Trammel is borderline.

[Dreamscape]

I think if Larkin is in, Murph should be in, even more so than Dawson.
I don't see this comparison. Larkin was an elite player at his position. While Murphy's numbers are good, he was never that much better than the players he played with, which Larkin was. While Ripkin got the press, Larkin also played a major role in reforming what is expected of the shortstop.

Moving on...for those who are against Tim Raines, here is an article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=4784578) from Rob Neyer.
All told, Raines reached base nearly 4,000 times. We know that 3,000 hits is a lot of hits. But how many times on base is 4,000? Only 40 players in major league history have reached base 4,000 times. Of those 40 players, 33 are eligible for the Hall of Fame. Of those 33, 32 have been elected to the Hall of Fame (the only exception is Rusty Staub, who will never be confused with Tim Raines yet was, paradoxically, like Tim Raines in many ways).

I'd take Raines over any of the 80's outfielders on this ballot.

[The Rap]

Well consider the fact that for the first few years of the 80's was considerdn the best all around player in baseball and won successive MVP awards. Man I just wish a player's character could work in his favor for once.

[Dreamscape]

Well consider the fact that for the first few years of the 80's was considerdn the best all around player in baseball and won successive MVP awards. Man I just wish a player's character could work in his favor for once.
First few years, indeed. But no one should get in the Hall because of six great years. Nothing about the Murph really stands out. Sure, he was a great ambassador of the game, but really, hundreds...thousands of guys before and after him have been that.

Some could compare him to Andruw Jones, though obviously Murphy was held in higher regard offensively in his era than Jones. But then, Jones's masterful defense helps to make that up. Both hit a wall in their early 30's. Murphy fell from greatness to lineup weakness in short order with no gradual decline of the great one we see in most players fighting age. If he could have righted the ship, Murphy would be in the Hall. If he could have had a, say Barry Larkin decline, he'd be in the Hall. Larkin was a star until 35, had a few average years, and then declined into a powerless middle infielder who still posted a good year off the bench in his final season. Murphy just fell from greatness way too quickly, much like Andruw. Andruw has a chance to eventually reclaim some of his glory, but otherwise, he will be looking at the Hall with envious eyes, too.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

But no one should get in the Hall because of six great years.

Where do you stand on Sandy Koufax?

[The Rap]

Funny because I was going to answer Dream using Sandy. I grew up watching Sandy pitch and he was the best I ever saw. In fact I use Sandy and Warren Spahn and compare them to the Beatles and the Stones. The former were the best ever but people tend to forget that in reality they were a group that were only around from 1964 till 1970 while the Stones are like the energizer bunny and keep going and going and going etc.

[The Rap]

Dream, let me add that if Murph was just one of many great ambassadors for the game then that logic should be apllied to Albert Belle and Dick Allen as well considering how many bums made it into the Hall.

[Dreamscape]

Sandy Koufax was one of the most dominant pitchers...ever. Only Nolan Ryan allowed less hits per nine innings. He's sixth all time in K/9 (1000 ING or 100 decisions). Sure, his counting stats suffered because of the length of time he did pitch in, but his dominance was unmatched. If Murphy had put up out-of-this-world numbers up instead of good, but not that incredible numbers, this would be an entirely different argument. Does Koufax benefit from not having a down period to his career? Possibly. But his up period was that of dominance.

Rap, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue.

By the way, Dick Allen not being in the Hall is a travesty.

[The Rap]

Well your last line tells me you know exactly what I am saying. Murph was an extraordinary individual as a player and someone opposing players told their sons to model themselves after as young men. He was this way to the extent where it stood out. Here is another name to play with; Kirby Puckett. If he didnlt get injurd and practically blinded then ................

[wordslayer©]

Good discussion.

Koufax didn't have a long career, but in his day, he was just devastating. The thing with Koufax is, if you read about hitters back in the day, they all said that he was unhittable. In his prime, one could make the argument that he was the best pitcher ever. No one is going to ever make that argument about Dale Murphy being the best hitter ever.

I cut him some slack because of the ungodly innings they had him throwing. I am not sure of his size, but he was a pretty small guy. From things I have read about Koufax, they abused his arm and he pitched with incredible amounts of pain. It just hammers home the point of just how daymned good Steve Carlton was. Nolan Ryan may have gotten the glory, but Carlton was a better pitcher than him in almost every way.

Lefty Grove pitched in an age where they didn't protect pitcher's arms. In Grove's most innings pitched year, he still pitched 60 innings *less* than Koufax did in his most pitched year.

I would have put Koufax in, but I do think you can make a strong argument for not doing it, because of the length of his career.

Dale Murphy was a good player, nice enough guy, and honestly, having that genuine, "awwe shucks" corn fed look is endearing to a lot of people. People want their heroes to drink milk, have a wide smile and show up for work every day and not behave like Tiger Woods. But good behavior doesn't make a hall of famer, nor should it.

People wanted Jeff Francoeur to be a Dale Murphy.

[Hobbes]

Koufax gets extra credit, if you will, due to the fact that his career was cut short through no fault of his own. He didn't get to show how he would have performed if his career had been longer.

Murphy had a full long career and there is no doubt how he performed over a normal-length career. Unfortunately, his performance just dropped off a cliff at the age of 32.

[The Rap]

Sandy put more superlative perfomances into a shorter package of time than most anyone in much larger packages. He is the only pitcher, including Nolan Ryan, who you felt something special was likely to happen on the night he pitched thus making him a cut above all others.

Who was the greatest lefty question I wrote up in my Dem Braves book in the Warren Spahn section. I cited Spahnie, Koufax, Whitey Ford and superb southpawas but came to a well thought out explained conclusion that the greatest lefty overall was Steve Carlton. So well done Wordslayer!

[The Rap]

I neglected to mention that Sandy was a Jewish kid who refused to pitch on the High Holy Days and he always returned to Brooklyn to go to synagogue in Brooklyn and I can rememebr how all the kids from the surrounding synagogues coming together out sdie the one Sandy was in so we could catch a glimpse and maybe talk to him. I can also remember being one of the lcky kids who did so twice.

[The Rap]

The biggest question this year concerns one other player. Does Edgar Martinez get in as he was a DH, albeit the best one ever?

[Chris_Moderato]

John Kruk is livid that Roberto Alomar didn't make it in this year.

Frankly, I think they should rework this entire voting structure. It's ridiculous to me that Andre Dawson is the only guy who made it this year, and it's ridiculous that Dawson may have made it in because of a new focus on "character" (as ESPN's Tim K. says) while Dale Murphy is repeatedly ignored.

Sports writers suck.

[Dreamscape]

Watching ESPN...Andre Dawson was the only member of the class. Blyleven and Alomar just missed out followed by Jack Morris, Larkin, and Lee Smith.

Which is probably a sign that baseball writers don't actually look at any numbers. Dawson doesn't have the numbers to be in the Hall. He was great, sure, and the knees hurt, but life is not fair and his overall numbers aren't impressive. In fact, if you are going to vote Dawson, why wouldn't you vote Murphy on the same ballot? Murphy was better at his best than Dawson was.

[Chris_Moderato]

PS...

Dale Murphy (career)
OBP- .346
OPS- .815
OPS+ 121

Andre Dawson (career)
OBP- .323
OPS- .806
OPS+ 119

Just sayin'.

[Hobbes]

PS...

Dale Murphy (career)
OBP- .346
OPS- .815
OPS+ 121

Andre Dawson (career)
OBP- .323
OPS- .806
OPS+ 119

Just sayin'.
Exactly. And considering I fall squarely on the side that feels Murph doesn't quite measure up to HOF-worthiness, I don't think Dawson should be in either.

[wordslayer©]

if sportswriters can be gainfully employed, then each and every one of us should be able to work for NASA.

[KB 34]

if sportswriters can be gainfully employed, then each and every one of us should be able to work for NASA.
Been there done that, twice.

Blyleven not getting in is a joke. Alomar, Murphy, and Larkin all deserve to get in no question over Dawson if you ask me.

[FrankEC]

Can someone explain to me why Fred McGriff didn't get more votes than he did? I didn't expect him to make it the first time out, but to only be on 21% of the ballots is a little surprising. I though for sure he's get more votes than Mark McGwire and Edgar Martinez.

[The Rap]

Interesting question because I told a friend a couple of days ago that "I am a Braves fan but for Fred McGriff to get into the HOF everybody has to be smoking something I haven't in years."

[FrankEC]

Interesting question because I told a friend a couple of days ago that "I am a Braves fan but for Fred McGriff to get into the HOF everybody has to be smoking something I haven't in years."

So, what else do you think McGriff needed to do to get in Rap? I'm really curious because I look at his numbers and I can't figure it out. Is it because of the other 1B that were playing during his time?

[Dreamscape]

So, what else do you think McGriff needed to do to get in Rap? I'm really curious because I look at his numbers and I can't figure it out. Is it because of the other 1B that were playing during his time?
Yes. If McGriff had been a 3B, he would have been in the Hall. But part of what makes a player appealing is his status at his position during the time he played. McGriff was a five-time All-Star (eii, that's decent), never even close to an MVP selection, and his numbers outside of that aren't that impressive.

That said, if you look at when he became a second-ran, it was about the time that steroid use increased (mid-90's) so possibly, what made McGriff such a weak selection was the fact he did it the right way. But because of the lack of true proof, that's up for debate.

What amazes me is some baseball writer voted for David Segui as one of the 10 players he felt were worthy of Hall of Fame selection.

David Segui.

[Hillbilly]

What amazes me is some baseball writer voted for David Segui as one of the 10 players he felt were worthy of Hall of Fame selection.

David Segui.


Someone needs to have:
1. their voting rights taken away,
2. their job taken away, and
3. their ass kicked.

[FrankEC]

Yes. If McGriff had been a 3B, he would have been in the Hall. But part of what makes a player appealing is his status at his position during the time he played. McGriff was a five-time All-Star (eii, that's decent), never even close to an MVP selection, and his numbers outside of that aren't that impressive.

That said, if you look at when he became a second-ran, it was about the time that steroid use increased (mid-90's) so possibly, what made McGriff such a weak selection was the fact he did it the right way. But because of the lack of true proof, that's up for debate.

What amazes me is some baseball writer voted for David Segui as one of the 10 players he felt were worthy of Hall of Fame selection.

David Segui.

Yeah, I guess when you consider his peers were Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, and even Mark McGwire it makes the case for McGriff a little harder to sell. I just look at the 493 HR, career OPS of .886 and OPS+ of 134 and think surely there are more than 116 voterrs who consider those numbes good enough.

And yeah, the guy who voted for David Segui and the 2 who voted for Eric Karros need to be suspended from voting indefinitely until they can show they have a clue.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I agree the vote was a disappointment. I'm happy for Dawson, he had a career good enough for induction. Not everyone is a Mantle, Aaron or Mays. In his day, there weren't many more feared hitters than Dawson. His selection should give Murphy's fans some hope. I think they were both at the same level. Blyleven's inability to get in sucks. He was that good. I'm glad that Alomar got snubbed, just as a payback for spitting on the ump, and the game itself for that matter. He'll get in, and deserves to, but he got a bit of comeuppance this year.
Anyone that includes everymen such as Segui and Karros should have no problems including me for consideration next year! I've been to a bunch of games and watched hundreds more on tv. Segui and Karros numbers are a bit better than mine, but the notion that any of us rates enshrinement is preposterous.

[Dreamscape]

I will say McGriff has as much of an argument to be in the Hall as Dawson did.

/still astounded by the fact that Robby Alomar wasn't a first ballot selection. He was easily the best player on the ballot and if they are seriously using that umpire incident as the reason, I am all the more astounded.

[Hobbes]

I agree that votes for Segui and Karros are preposterous, but I have to believe there is another reason for those votes beyond a belief in their HOF credentials. Those writers knew the players wouldn't get in, so likely thought it was a harmless tip of the cap to two players who had no shot at ever making the HOF.

[Hobbes]

I will say McGriff has as much of an argument to be in the Hall as Dawson did.

/still astounded by the fact that Robby Alomar wasn't a first ballot selection. He was easily the best player on the ballot and if they are seriously using that umpire incident as the reason, I am all the more astounded.
Yeah, I've hated Alomar since that incident, and even I wouldn't think of using it as a basis for exclusion. I think it was a totally classless move, but done in the heat of anger nonetheless.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Hey guys, payback's a bitch, right? Alomar's just reaping what he has sewn. Maybe after he makes it in the guys who didn't vote him in this year can apologize and make everything alright again.
Regarding Lefty, Steve Carlton, he's one of the best pitchers I ever saw. Lefty or righty. Period. Imagine being the guy who traded Carlton to the Phillies for Rick Wise! Wise was a serviceable to really good pitcher, but nowhere near Carlton. I bet the surly, aloof Carlton really got off winning his 300th game against the Cards! Remember how much he had to sweat awaiting his induction? He pissed so many writers off in his day there was actual concern that he might not make it in!

[Dreamscape]

He did make a mistake, but to me, the Hall isn't about the good guys or the bad guys, but the greatest of players. And Alomar was just that. I mean, we're talking about a guy who can be argued is the best second baseman of the last 50 years, if not baseball's history. He was a full package as both a great hitter and an incredible fielder. To use one incident to define 17 seasons just boggles my mind, I guess. I understand we want integrity and all, but not only have the player and umpire made nice, it's not like Alomar was a borderline player who that one incident can push you one way or the other. He was a superb player. Instead, Dawson gets in...an average hitter with great power, but just a standup guy? As a friend of mine might say...
http://img.youtube.com/vi/zDhThhrd_UY/0.jpg
Come on!

[The Rap]

Frank, I think Dream did a good job explaining why I don't believe McGriff belongs in the Hall.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I don't question Alomar's worthiness. He deserves enshrinement. If his actions influenced some folks to screw him over, it's tough. It falls into the line of people who haven't been able to make unanimous selections on easy picks like Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron or anyone else. Some folks just have to try and stand out, even if they only stand out to themselves. I would be interested to see if the spitting incident played a part in the decision making process of any of those excluding Alomar. I suggested it did, but I have no proof. If it still puzzles you, think "Pete Rose...." Unsavory actions of ballplayers, no matter how seemingly trivial have cost guys come election time. Just ask Mark McGwire!

[Dreamscape]

I don't think you can compare Pete Rose with anyone. While spitting on an umpire is wrong, it's not betting on baseball wrong. It's not even steriods wrong. It's just one little incident. It doesn't define him, nor his career.

Sure, it had to cost him. There really is no other reason to vote against Alomar, is there? Elite player at his position, check. Many years of productive output, check. Like Rickey Henderson, who wasn't exactly a gentleman, it was a slamdunk. But Alomar has to wait a year. It's just wrong, I guess. But then, Dawson doesn't come close to making my ballot so I guess I'm the wrong one.

[bravestud]

Does anyone else besides me think Albert Belle should be getting a much longer look from Hall voters? He didn't have a long career, but for the 10 full seasons he played he averaged an OPS+ of 145. He finished 7th, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in the MVP voting from 1993-1996 (and had the award flat out stolen from him by the voters in '95 because they hated him) which should give some idea how dominant he was at his peak. He's still the only player to have 50 home runs and 50 doubles in a season, and did it in the strike-shortened '95 season (only 144 games played that year).

It's just weird to me that he's not considered more by HOF voters, even considering how reviled he was by the media. I'm not necessarily saying he should get in, but he should definitely be in the discussion. Anyone else with me on the Belle bandwagon?

[Dreamscape]

Does anyone else besides me think Albert Belle should be getting a much longer look from Hall voters? He didn't have a long career, but for the 10 full seasons he played he averaged an OPS+ of 145. He finished 7th, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in the MVP voting from 1993-1996 (and had the award flat out stolen from him by the voters in '95 because they hated him) which should give some idea how dominant he was at his peak. He's still the only player to have 50 home runs and 50 doubles in a season, and did it in the strike-shortened '95 season (only 144 games played that year).

It's just weird to me that he's not considered more by HOF voters, even considering how reviled he was by the media. I'm not necessarily saying he should get in, but he should definitely be in the discussion. Anyone else with me on the Belle bandwagon?
He is already off the ballot, having failed to receive 5% of the vote in 2007.

[Chris_Moderato]

Interesting question because I told a friend a couple of days ago that "I am a Braves fan but for Fred McGriff to get into the HOF everybody has to be smoking something I haven't in years."

Nothing funny 'bout drugs. Drugs ruin lives.

[Chris_Moderato]

Hey guys, payback's a bitch, right? Alomar's just reaping what he has sewn. Maybe after he makes it in the guys who didn't vote him in this year can apologize and make everything alright again.

What does this even mean? Was that one incident really that offensive, in the grand scheme?

[The Rap]

Well Alomar kissed and made up with that ump and they have become truly good friends since then so by what right does some voter have to hold it against him?

Rose is a total different story as Dream pointed out. Great ballplayer but a lowlife extraordinnaire. There has been a sign in each and every baseball clubhouse right on the wall when you walk in that tells you that you cannot gamble. I can't imagine anything clearer than that. But then you had him denying everything for oh so long when it was obvious that he was caught red handed. The only problem is that Bart Giamatti was a very special man who truly loved the game of baseball. And those closest to him including Fay Vincent and Bud Selig actually believe that Pete has blood on his hands because they hold him accountable for Giamatti's sudden death during that whole fiasco.

[Andy G.]

What does this even mean? Was that one incident really that offensive, in the grand scheme?
Seriously. It's so far from being a big deal that people shouldn't even talk about it anymore, much less keep an obviously deserving player out of the Hall of Fame for a year because of it.

What is the Hall of Fame anyway? Are we supposed to take this thing seriously? It's almost like taking the Grammy's seriously. The writers who vote are idiots. Total and complete morons. I hate generalizations, but sports writers are some of the dumbest, yet at the same time pretentious people you'll ever see. They take their votes(and their opinions) so seriously. Like their vote somehow has more importance than the rest. Most of these guys don't have as much knowledge of their supposed expertise as the fans you see ranting on internet message boards.

Which brings me back to my question. Are we supposed to take this stuff seriously? Do we care who wins the MVP? Do we even care who gets into the Hall of Fame? I don't. I can't bring myself to care who gets in and whether or not it was the right decision while knowing that the people making that decision are incompetent.

I admit it will be cool to see Braves players being recognized for their achievements in baseball(Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Chipper), but I'll never think of getting into the Hall as some magnificent feat like I did when I was a kid.

[Dreamscape]

I guess I have this feeling that the Hall can be a great thing, but needs to be considerably retooled to get back to being that. We have voters who couldn't be bothered to even turn in a ballot with candidates (despite some very deserving ones this year). One writer seems to follow the trend. Tim Raines was on his ballot, but after seeing Raines get so few votes, he knocked him off. Now that Raines rebounded some, he might be back on the guy's ballot? How does that even work?

It doesn't take long to really do your ballot justice. Hell, right away, you can eliminate about 3/4's of the ballot from contention most years. If you can find the difference between Dawson and Murphy, good job. I've been looking and the differences are minimal at best.

The Hall of Fame could be a great thing. Unfortunately, the baseball writers have no idea how to vote.

[The Rap]

I agree and part of the problem is the political differences that now exist in our society. There are despicable guys in the HOF and for example maybehe worst was Ty Cobb but how can you keep him out? And the bigger question is if you even should try considering his achievements.

[bravos4evr]

It's the Baseball HOF not the nice guys HOF. IMO, if you get the numbers you should get in.... It's that simple. I'm not saying that there should be set numerical guidelines but something needs to be done about the way the writers vote. Like there should be peer review and bad voters should lose their right to vote on the HOF. Cuz the fact that some people didn't vote for Mike Schmidt or for Hank Aaron on their first ballot shows that there is a problem.