Joe Posnanski on Chipper Jones

[alaskabravesfan]

Appreciating the Understated Brilliance of Chipper Jones http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/09/30/atlanta.braves/index.html

Posnanski discusses (in highly complimentary terms) why Chipper Jones is so often overlooked even though he is a first ballot hall-of-famer.

One of the interesting facts from the article discusses how Chipper is one of only 14 players (with 2,000 or more games) to beat a .300/.400/.500 line. BA, OBP, SLG It's something that not even greats like Mantle, Mays, or Aaron accomplished.

Anyway, it's a quick read and pretty good stuff...

[Middle Man]

I liked this quote:

"....in fact, the only real weakness in his game is that he inexplicably gets the yips on the simplest of throws from third to first during the most important games of the season..."

[HomerTheBrave]

I'm the biggest Chipper fan here........but I'm sorry to say that he cost us this year.
It's tough not to point the finger at him when we did everything else right;our pitching was great, other hitters did what we expected ,others even exceeded our expectations, but the Chipper we know and love did not.....yes,he was hurt ,i know, but him playing hurt made us a better team?
definitely not.
I thought I'd never say that we lost because of Chipper....

[Hobbes]

I'm the biggest Chipper fan here........but I'm sorry to say that he cost us this year.
It's tough not to point the finger at him when we did everything else right;our pitching was great, other hitters did what we expected ,others even exceeded our expectations, but the Chipper we know and love did not.....yes,he was hurt ,i know, but him playing hurt made us a better team?
definitely not.
I thought I'd never say that we lost because of Chipper....
To his credit, he seems to recognize the same thing.

[KB 34]

Here are Chipper's splits for the season. Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
April/March 16 16 69 59 12 19 3 1 2 8 0 0 9 11 .322 .420 .508 .929 30 1 1 0 0 0 0 .370 122 144
May 25 22 97 77 12 24 5 0 3 13 1 1 19 15 .312 .443 .494 .937 38 3 0 0 1 6 1 .350 124 151
June 26 25 111 93 13 23 4 1 4 12 0 0 17 11 .247 .360 .441 .801 41 2 0 0 1 4 1 .241 91 119
July 24 23 104 81 17 23 5 0 4 16 1 0 20 12 .284 .413 .494 .907 40 1 0 0 3 4 0 .279 117 143
August 25 25 109 89 13 22 2 0 3 10 2 0 19 19 .247 .376 .371 .747 33 2 0 0 1 3 0 .279 79 98
Sept/Oct 22 19 87 73 13 17 4 0 2 11 0 0 14 16 .233 .356 .370 .726 27 3 0 0 0 0 1 .273 74 97

I have to admit I'm torn about his statistics. No question the past month or so he hasn't played up to his standards; he's played more like an average 3B with little power. Unfortunately, only LaRoche know what power hitting is on this team. At the same time Chipper has been protected by McCann who simply isn't a cleanup hitter. He's an amazing catcher but he is a catcher and they typically aren't the best hitters around. Would Infante (free KJ) have done much better at 3B? I really don't think so. I have to conclude the problem is the Braves are relying on a worn down 37 year old to single handedly carry the offense more than anything. I applaud Chipper for accepting this role with the responsibility he does as well.

[Middle Man]

That's a very reasonable post, KB. And I agree that overall his hitting numbers really aren't that bad. Our perception is tainted by the decline at the end of the season and by his declining defensive skills. Maybe he's worn out. It's been a long season and he's been playing ball since he was 5.

Also, he usually has several extended breaks during the season which he didn't really get this year. Maybe he needs the McCann treatment next season.

Also again, a look at the stats confirms what i've thought throughout the season - he's been somewhat unlucky this year - at least when compared to last year when everything he hit seemed to fall for a hit whereas this year his batting average on balls in play in somewhat below average.

[luvdembravos]

I have to conclude the problem is the Braves are relying on a worn down 37 year old to single handedly carry the offense more than anything. I applaud Chipper for accepting this role with the responsibility he does as well.

You are correct, sir.


Sure, Chipper didn’t have the year that we’ve come to expect from him but he didn’t cost us the season. Having an aging, injury-plagued veteran as the focal point of one’s offense is just asking for trouble.

I’m really not into playing the blame game but IMO, the season was lost in the first half by being too patient with guys like Francoeur, Schafer, KJ and Kotchman. Once management recognized that changes needed to be made, the team played decent ball. With the exception of Norton, the post-All Star break roster was pretty solid.

I’m pretty upbeat going into 2010. As I stated before, this is the best Atlanta Braves’ team that never made the playoffs … and in fact, it’s better than some of the teams that did make the playoffs but only won the division because the competition was so bad (e.g., 2005). I’m hoping we keep all of our starters, get a big bat and find a decent closer. Three division titles in a row by the Phillies is simply unacceptable.

[warefreak]

I do have to say a big part of relying on Chipper so much this year is because he was the batting champion last year. He was so dang good last year... and nobody expected him to fall off the earth like he did this year. If he batted .290-.310 last year this wouldn't be such a big surprise. I definitely don't point my finger at Chipper for this year, but at the offense as a whole. Compared to other playoff teams our offense is horribly ineffective. The trades for McLouth and Laroche were too little too late.

I'm with most of you knowing that we have to get a big bat during the offseason. We can't count on Chipper to produce like he has in the past. Heyward is coming up but we need a big LF. Holliday or Bay would be the missing link, but we'd have to dump Lowe's salary to make that happen. Maybe the Dodgers will take him back? They need SP.

[JanShan12]

I love the past couple comments. Putting all of our weight on Chipper's shoulders wasn't right. The Braves failed him, the team, and the fans by not spending the money on getting a big bat, preferably in left field. It's obvious Chipper is in a point in his career where he can still be very productive, but he's not the big power hitter he once was and neither is McCann. As long as LaRoche keeps batting 7th or 8th, he's not what we're looking for either. This off-season needs to be spent looking for a #4 hitter.

Whoever said our post All-Star roster was pretty solid, was right. My only complaint was Anderson and his lack of, well, everything. He didn't hustle, he didn't hit for power, he was slow in the outfield, he didn't smile, etc... I could go on and on. Replace him with a big bat (no, I haven't looked at potential free agents yet) by free agent or trade and this team has a great shot next year with our great starting pitching.

[Lauren T.]

he didn't smile, etc...
See, I'm not the only one around here who thinks personality factors into success. :thumbsup:

[Middle Man]

See, I'm not the only one around here who thinks personality factors into success. :thumbsup:

Yeah, well he was an easy target. When you start comparing the types of shoes they wear, you lose me.

[Lauren T.]

They were ladies shoes (http://braveslove.blogspot.com/2009/05/ladies-shoes.html)!!! :D

[luvdembravos]

See, I'm not the only one around here who thinks personality factors into success. :thumbsup:

I used to think so too...then, Jeff Francoeur came along.

[JanShan12]

Ha! By not smiling... EVER... it looks like he's miserable. If he didn't smile, but hustled and played great, I would care less, but not smiling was just one more thing he didn't do.

[-Dr. Brave-]

Ha! By not smiling... EVER... it looks like he's miserable. If he didn't smile, but hustled and played great, I would care less, but not smiling was just one more thing he didn't do.

Garret Anderson doesn't smile because he's too damn lazy.

[Dreamscape]

Garret Anderson doesn't smile because he's too damn lazy.
Adam LaRoche doesn't smile because he hasn't gotten the joke yet.

/too much?

[quick]

That's a very reasonable post, KB. And I agree that overall his hitting numbers really aren't that bad. Our perception is tainted by the decline at the end of the season and by his declining defensive skills. Maybe he's worn out. It's been a long season and he's been playing ball since he was 5.

Also, he usually has several extended breaks during the season which he didn't really get this year. Maybe he needs the McCann treatment next season.

Also again, a look at the stats confirms what i've thought throughout the season - he's been somewhat unlucky this year - at least when compared to last year when everything he hit seemed to fall for a hit whereas this year his batting average on balls in play in somewhat below average.

You are right--Chipper should be treated like a catcher, with every third day off. I think we'd find he'd do much better and be fresh at the end of the year for the big push. A planned rest is much better than an injury rest, too, IMHO. If we played him this way, I think he'd be valuable to the Bravos during the rest of his new contract. Omar can handle third on days Chip sits.

[quick]

Adam LaRoche doesn't smile because he hasn't gotten the joke yet.

/too much?

Cold, man, cold. Rochey is not so dumb. He's slow in four languages, fluently.

[Lauren T.]

Andruw smiled constantly -- it was one thing I loved about him, even when he was grinning after striking out and falling on his bum in front of 40,000 people. I like a pleasant face.

[Andy G.]

Anderson smiles sometimes. You catch him cutting up with a teammate in the dugout every once in a while. He smiled after he and McLouth collided earlier this year, although he didn't smile immediately after it happened.

He's also hustled quite a bit in the second half. It was an obvious switch he made sometime just before the All Star break. I think he downplayed a lot of his injuries early in the year. He might not hustle anymore than he needs to in the field, which is annoying I know, but he's been busting it on the basepaths for a while now.

[luvdembravos]

I think Garret Anderson looks a lot like Denzel Washington...the serious side of Denzel without the smile.

[JanShan12]

Smiling or not.... I'm done with the guy. We all knew he wasn't the answer to LF before the season and now it's more than obvious. He needs to be replaced with a big bat.

[HomerTheBrave]

But Garret,smile or no smile,did what we expected...right?


anyways...wasn't this thread about chipper?

I'm kinda surprised you guys aren't blaming Chipper as much.....some of you claim that too much weight was laid on him. What else do you expect from a former mvp,and our number 3 hitter, the most important spot in the lineup?

Again,I know he was hurt, I admit that was part of the problem ....don't you think that with a healthy chipper and his usual 300,30,100 stats would've given us the extra few wins we needed ?

[KB 34]

Chipper was an MVP in 1999 and it's now 2009. He batted #3 because the Braves didn't have anyone better to bat #3. Sure, if Chipper was healthy and playing like his old self the Braves would have won a few more games. I could give a million other scenarios as well.

Any realistic Braves fan crosses their fingers and hopes for the best from Chipper, while realizing he's old and injury prone. He doesn't choose to be injury prone but the reality is he is and the team needs to make decisions accordingly. The decision made last offseason was to load up on pitching and hope the offense would work out. The Braves miscalculated and couldn't quite compensate for it when this became clear. With a few more wins the focus would have turned from Chipper bashing to celebrating the brilliant moves of acquiring LaRoche and McLouth. I'm going to avoid the extremes and acknowledge they were excellent moves but unfortunately they weren't quite enough.

[jlcct]

Chipper was an MVP in 1999 and it's now 2009. He batted #3 because the Braves didn't have anyone better to bat #3. Sure, if Chipper was healthy and playing like his old self the Braves would have won a few more games. I could give a million other scenarios as well.

He was an MVP in 1999 and he won the hitting title in 2008. He batted #3 because he deserved it weather we had a better hitter or not.

[Lauren T.]

He was an MVP in 1999 and he won the hitting title in 2008. He batted #3 because he deserved it weather we had a better hitter or not.
So after his performance this year, who "deserves" to be the #3 hitter for 2010?

[Andy G.]

Chipper Jones is still going to be our best hitter next year. He didn't regress, in one season, from a guy that can put up better than a 1.000 OPS to a guy only capable of a .830 OPS. He'll bounce back and will still be our third hitter.

KB, why do you even go there? It wouldn't have mattered if the Braves still had Mark Teixeira and the good Andruw Jones, Chipper wasn't going to be taken out of the #3 spot at any point this season. He's Chipper freakin' Jones. He's not a singles hitter like people keep saying. He's not mediocre. He's just human.

[KB 34]

Chipper Jones is still going to be our best hitter next year. He didn't regress, in one season, from a guy that can put up better than a 1.000 OPS to a guy only capable of a .830 OPS. He'll bounce back and will still be our third hitter.

KB, why do you even go there? It wouldn't have mattered if the Braves still had Mark Teixeira and the good Andruw Jones, Chipper wasn't going to be taken out of the #3 spot at any point this season. He's Chipper freakin' Jones. He's not a singles hitter like people keep saying. He's not mediocre. He's just human.
Chipper hit cleanup behind J.D. Drew and Gary Sheffield. He's also hit 5th after returning from injuries several times. It has happened before but it takes another strong player to move him along with him struggling. Of course he wasn't going to hit in a different spot in the order, it was a weak lineup. And don't start with any garbage about this being negativity, the Braves gambled between Kotchman, KJ, Anderson, Schafer, and Francoeur someone would step up with power and it didn't happen at all. I thought someone would step up but it didn't happen. Instead pitching stepped up on every level better than I was realistically possible.

Right now Chipper is below 20 HR. Want to know the last time that happened in his career? 1993. His SLG is .432 and he never finished a season with it below .450 before. This hasn't been the old Chipper this season. He could bounce back but realistically he's 37 years old and he's not going to be the player he once was. He gets it and that's why he's talking about retirement. Hopefully Heyward starts taking over on June 1 and there's a nice transition of the lineup to him. I like Chipper as much as the next person but he's getting old and won't be a superstar much longer, assuming he bounces back next season.

[Dreamscape]

Chipper is seeing what happens to natural sluggers. As they get older, their bats slow down, their power falls. His BABIP says he's unlucky and I think he's a good enough and certainly a smart enough hitter to rebound to over .300 with an OBP over .400. It's just that he may not slug more than .500 anymore. Now, luck again may play a role. Some of his doubles may just leave the yard next year and he will look better than I think he will. But, with all due respect, he's not Chipper freakin Jones. He's a post-prime Larry Wayne Jones Jr. I'll give the Braves a pass for thinking he could stave off Father Time this year. But the transition to this team will continue this offseason. The future Braves are Jason Heyward and (insert hopeful young basher trade pickup here). Chipper will be good, but he's not the great player he once was.

[Andy G.]

Chipper hit cleanup behind J.D. Drew and Gary Sheffield. He's also hit 5th after returning from injuries several times. It has happened before but it takes another strong player to move him along with him struggling. Of course he wasn't going to hit in a different spot in the order, it was a weak lineup. And don't start with any garbage about this being negativity, the Braves gambled between Kotchman, KJ, Anderson, Schafer, and Francoeur someone would step up with power and it didn't happen at all. I thought someone would step up but it didn't happen. Instead pitching stepped up on every level better than I was realistically possible.

Right now Chipper is below 20 HR. Want to know the last time that happened in his career? 1993. His SLG is .432 and he never finished a season with it below .450 before. This hasn't been the old Chipper this season. He could bounce back but realistically he's 37 years old and he's not going to be the player he once was. He gets it and that's why he's talking about retirement. Hopefully Heyward starts taking over on June 1 and there's a nice transition of the lineup to him. I like Chipper as much as the next person but he's getting old and won't be a superstar much longer, assuming he bounces back next season.
A) When I asked, "Why do you even go there?", that was because this is a pointless conversation. I don't care where Chipper hits in the lineup. It doesn't matter. Fans only think it does. You're wasting your time debating stuff like that.

B) What are you proving by telling me what I(and everyone here) already know? Yeah, it's the first time in sixteen years that Chipper won't hit 20 homeruns. So what? Why is everything always one extreme or the other with you? It's like Dream said, he could easily put up an IsoSLG over .200 next year. In fact, he probably will. In '07 his IsoSLG was .270ish. Baseball players almost never have the numbers that make sense in a given season. Over the course a few seasons, sure, you can sorta predict how much success a guy will have. If it looks like a guy should hit .300/.400/.500 according to his trends, the chances are pretty decent that he won't do that. Being old and having a bad year does not always mean the player has lost a step. Even if he has regressed, because he is old, do you think he got that much worse in one season? It's unlikely that Chipper Jones won't have a successful season next year.

Please, don't go with, "He'll be successful but not successful enough to be our #3 hitter". That stuff is so weak.

[Lauren T.]

It's unlikely that Chipper Jones won't have a successful season next year.
Could someone please name a few position players - who aren't users of PEDs ;) - who actually improved from age 37 to age 38? And either improved or stayed at the same high level from 38 to 39, and 40? That's how long Chipper's contract goes.

(This is a genuine question - I'm not trying to start a fight here.)

[Hobbes]

You are correct that players don't typically improve after age 37, at least without pharmaceutical help.

But this isn't really about Chipper "improving" next year, but rather reverting to a level of performance he has maintained consistently over his entire career, even as recently as last year. Sure, he most likely won't reach the heights of his best years, or even the level of last year, but he should have a considerably better season than he did this year. It's not a given, but considering his history and the total anomaly of his numbers this year, it's a good chance.

[KB 34]

Please, don't go with, "He'll be successful but not successful enough to be our #3 hitter". That stuff is so weak.
Will you quit making up quotes and portraying them as actual things I've said? I thought we went through this last spring when you claimed I opposed getting Lowe and Vazquez, when I opposed Lowe and supported Vazquez. I never said Chipper won't be a legitimate #3 hitter next season because I wouldn't put it past him. I wouldn't be surprised either way at this point. How about this? I don't believe he filled the offensive role the Braves needed out of their #3 hitter this season. That simple, Chipper didn't have his best stuff this season and the Braves could really have used it.

[Andy G.]

Will you quit making up quotes and portraying them as actual things I've said? I thought we went through this last spring when you claimed I opposed getting Lowe and Vazquez, when I opposed Lowe and supported Vazquez.
I have no idea what you're on about, though I do remember you saying that the Braves' rotation would be plagued with injuries this year.

[KB 34]

I have no idea what you're on about, though I do remember you saying that the Braves' rotation would be plagued with injuries this year.
I predicted the Braves would lose the equivalent of a starting pitcher for the season and predicted it would be Lowe. I'm so disappointed, the Braves were healthier than I expected and the starting rotation did better than I expected:furious: What ever shall I do? Oh wait, as a scientist I expect to be wrong a lot of the time and seek to be innovative and seek out unexpected facts of reality. The Braves exceeded my expectations and I'm quite proud of the team. Chipper didn't but oh well, he's old and Heyward is coming on. I can realistically be more optimistic than I was a year ago which is pretty awesome.


Edit: I don't like the direction this is going so this will be my final post on the matter.

[bravos4evr]

back to the topic at hand.....

Im of the opinion that Chipper may the most well rounded switch hitter in history. I also think he's in the discussion for top 3 3rd basemen of all time(modern era). ( Schmidt being first and then you can argue about wether Brooks Robinson, Chipper...etc deserves 2nd-5th. He's been a supremely solid player, especially when you consider he's got both good counting stats and great sabre stats.

1st ballot HOF'er IMO.