Bobby Cox to Retire after 2010!!!

[barvos4evr]

Just saw that Bobby signed an extension for next year and a 5 year consulting deal after he retires following 2010 season.

thoughts?

[Middle Man]

Man! I thought there would be 5 pages of comments by now.

I think this is good. Bobby deserves to go out on his own terms - not with rumors swirling around about being forced out or whatever. This gives everyone time to show their appreciation for one of the all-time greats and gives the Braves time to consider all of their options regarding a replacement.

[Murphys#1Fan]

I agree...very classy way to end his career and he got to make the decission to do it himself. What I wished the team could have somehow done with Glavine...Smoltz and Maddux. I just hope he does what he promises and retires after next season. I am so wanting to see a new manager for the Braves.

[KB 34]

The Braves have a year to get busy, identify the manager of the future, and find a way to land him. I feel it's time for Bobby to go but given his history I'm willing to accept one more season as a finale for him. It is nice to see mutual agreement about his future instead of the drama involving the obvious names, makes the organization and him look classy and intelligent.

[argentina brave]

people should be careful what they wish for...i hear a lot of people that want to say cox is a terrible in-game manager, the game has passed him by, etc..., but the fact is, with the personnel we had this year (offensively), you can't argue with his results.

i think a lot of braves fans are spoiled and don't realize (enough) that before bobby cox, we were mired in mediocrity for every year, save a couple of joe torre squads.

[barvos4evr]

yeah but if you look at the people we had back then a monkey coulda mgd those teams into the playoffs.

Bobby, great player's mgr, horrible tactician .

[Lauren T.]

i think a lot of braves fans are spoiled and don't realize (enough) that before bobby cox, we were mired in mediocrity for every year, save a couple of joe torre squads.
The internet is full of the loudest voices -- most of them young people, screaming to be heard. I'm interested to see how the generation gap plays into the transition. I'm not sad about the retirement because Bobby's not the only Braves manager I remember. Chuck Tanner and Russ Nixon weren't great, but I'm glad to have another perspective -- and now they all will too! ...And they will probably complain about the replacement, just like they complain about everything else. ;)

[Andy G.]

yeah but if you look at the people we had back then a monkey coulda mgd those teams into the playoffs.

Bobby, great player's mgr, horrible tactician .
I'm surprised by you man. That's such a weak ass argument. Win and the credit goes to the players. Lose and the blame goes to the manager. Really? Is he honestly a "horrible tactician"? It's freakin' baseball. It's not that complicated. There aren't that many ways to screw up. The argument about pitchers being overused is so tired and lame that I can't believe you people are getting away with it. Pitching in the major leagues is not so cut and dry that you can say "Pitching more often is bad. Pitching less often is good." These guys haven't even fallen off as the season has gone on. Moylan and Gonzo especially have shown absolutely no signs of fatigue in the second half. They've pitched over their head in fact. How are they overworked?

If Bobby's in-game management is so bad, why have the Braves been one of the best teams in baseball since the All Star break? Are you going to tell me that a monkey could have managed this team to a record that is fourteen games over .500 since then? Where is the basis for your argument? Just about every time the Braves lose, somebody says Bobby screwed up. What about when they win? Why don't you people say, "Hey, Bobby made the right decisions to get that win tonight."

Seriously. You've got nothing to back up your claims other than the fact that the Braves only won one world series during their stretch of fourteen straight division titles. There are so many other reasons why the Braves didn't win more than one WS that to act like you can say with certainty that it's the managers fault is pure bullsh**.

There's not a lot to support your claim that Bobby Cox is "horrible" at anything concerning baseball. So why not try to stop acting like we're the blind sheep here and you're the one who sees things the right way. There are two sides to the argument, and in this case the manager in question is one of the most successful managers of all time.

[Hobbes]

You go Gilley!
:cheers:

[barvos4evr]

I think he is a good players mgr, no doubt that he has gotten a lot out of some players because he motivates them in a positive way. But I have been watching him his entire career and he consistently has shown a muddling ability to properly manage his bullpen and he is often outmanaged by guys like Larussa and Leyland.

[luvdembravos]

Are you going to tell me that a monkey could have managed this team to a record that is fourteen games over .500 since then?

Well, a big part of the reason we're 14 games over .500 is because the monkey was traded to the Mets.

[barvos4evr]

Who Bobby insisted on parading out there erry night.......

[luvdembravos]

He certainly did. One of Cox's greatest strengths (loyalty) is also want of his greatest weaknesses.

[KB 34]

Well, a big part of the reason we're 14 games over .500 is because the monkey was traded to the Mets.
And BC wouldn't send him to the bench despite having plenty of reason to.

I'm still quite interested in the acceptance of the Braves mediocrity of late. The Braves are going to miss the playoffs for the fourth straight season. I have no interest in a half season because if you take the halves you like from the past two seasons you get a playoff team. The standings don't work that way when it comes playoff times.

We're hearing the usual lines that the Braves rebuilding process is going great and the Braves are going to compete next season. I believed it three times but the fourth and now the fifth aren't enough for me to get overly excited. I see the Braves as having a much better chance to compete than this season, probably twice as much as I did last offseason, but there's still work to do. The bottom line is the Braves have been mediocre long enough for me to release the sentimental feeling that anything from the glory days must be kept around. I want the glory days back but it's not going to happen the same way with the same faces. Baseball economics have changed, the role of statistics in the game is changing, anyone could name a huge list of differences. Enough with living on the past, I'm ready to cheer a new Braves tradition on. Hanson, Jurrjens, McCann, and Heyward are quite the start, now it's time to surround them with a new environment starting with a new manager.

[Andy G.]

Dude, nobody is accepting mediocrity. In fact, it's you who's unable to accept reality. Eight teams make the playoffs. Why do you go into this fantasy land where you act like a season is either successful or unsuccessful based on whether or not they make the playoffs? That's ridiculous man. Nothing in life works that way. Why must you hold professional athletes and their coaches to such unreasonable standards?

Bravos, all you've done to support your claim that Bobby is not a great manager is to say that you think he's a horrible tactician(which is a ridiculous thing to even say about the manager of a baseball team) and that he trotted Francoeur out to right field for too long. Most of you lost touch with reality regarding Francoeur a long time ago. A twenty-two year old outfielder with enough power to hit thirty homeruns is worthy of being played every day. A twenty-three year old outfielder, with improving discipline(check the numbers, his IsoOBP did go up every year including '08) and an OPS just shy of .800 is worthy of being given one more shot after an uncharacteristically bad year. The Braves didn't give him all of '09 to get things back together, and Bobby Cox did sit him in favor of Matt Diaz quite often in his last few weeks as a Brave.

Why is that even an issue when talking about the quality of Cox's managerial skills? You guys aren't even making a legitimate case against the guy. At least give me something substantial. You ignore the wins, the playoff births and the fact that he's one of the most respected men in baseball. Then all you bring to the table is that you think he's been out managed(because apparently only you can watch a baseball game and definitively say whether a manager is good or not), and that despite an incredible track record of excellent pitching staffs, he doesn't know how to manage a bullpen.

[ATL2123]

It's easy to point fingers at Bobby for the team's recent struggles, but don't kid yourself into thinking that when you take his whole career into perspective. The man is one of the top 5 managers of ALL TIME and the respect he has garnered throughout the years from his peers and his players is almost unparalleled for a manager. Sure, his pitching decisions and loyalty to certain players can be called into question, but those are not tangible reasons for why Braves have not been successful the past couple of years. To celebrate the departure of a man who has dedicated 28+ years to your team does not make sense to me. I have a good feeling about next year, and I think Chipper and the boys will be extra motivated to get this team back to glory.

[KB 34]

Dude, nobody is accepting mediocrity. In fact, it's you who's unable to accept reality. Eight teams make the playoffs. Why do you go into this fantasy land where you act like a season is either successful or unsuccessful based on whether or not they make the playoffs? That's ridiculous man. Nothing in life works that way. Why must you hold professional athletes and their coaches to such unreasonable standards?

Let me clarify, the Braves have given every indication that their primary objective was to make the playoffs the past four seasons. They made that their goal, not me. I'm saying they didn't make the playoffs and thus I'm not thrilled with the performance. Now let's play theoretical baseball.

Next season the Braves have some nice prospects that'll be close to the majors or in positions to take a big step forward. If they said focusing on developing these prospects and growing through any of their pains was the primary goal of the team, then I would be fine with missing the playoffs. I would expect a payout later on from Schafer, Heyward, Hanson, Jurrjens, Freeman, Medlen, and others from a trade of Vazquez or something. The fact is the Braves haven't done this and have taken this mentality, although I will say the organization has moved in this direction, which is good because it has led to less rentals of late and more selective dealings of future busts, not whoever it takes to get a rental. I have to give some credit to Wren for being a better GM than JS was when he left.

A legend was replaced by an understudy and the Braves are better because of it at least in my opinion, interesting. Is there much disagreement here? How many here are ready to fire Wren and put JS back as GM? I'm not, I believe Wren is growing on the job a lot. He didn't play games when tough moves needed to be made with Teix and Francoeur and has made some nice longterm deals. I'll give him a chance and not look back, just like I will with the new manager.

[Murphys#1Fan]

He certainly did. One of Cox's greatest strengths (loyalty) is also want of his greatest weaknesses.

Agreed!!!:thumbsup:

[luvdembravos]

Eight teams make the playoffs. Why do you go into this fantasy land where you act like a season is either successful or unsuccessful based on whether or not they make the playoffs? That's ridiculous man.

The main goal for all teams should be to make the playoffs and go on to the World Series. Only one team can be totally successful each year but making the playoffs is a great metric for defining a successful year.

I don't think the expectation of making it into the playoffs is either "ridiculous" or a "fantasy land." This is major league baseball - not little league and the object of the game is to win.

[luvdembravos]

...and let me add a little line from General George Patton

"When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

:thumbsup:

[Lauren T.]

8 of 30 teams make the playoffs every year. One team wins it all. If a fan says their team "fails" if they don't win it all or don't even make it to the playoffs, I hate to hear that.

For those of you still in school, let's compare it to grades. There are 30 kids in your class. You're told in the beginning that only 8 of you will pass the course and one of those eight will get an A. Of course, everyone is going to try his or her hardest because no one wants to do poorly, but that's the structure of the system: only 26.6% will "succeed" and the rest will "fail". Wouldn't you hate to work your hardest, come in 9th or 10th in your class, and still be labeled a failure?

[luvdembravos]

For those of you still in school, let's compare it to grades. There are 30 kids in your class. You're told in the beginning that only 8 of you will pass the course and one of those eight will get an A. Of course, everyone is going to try his or her hardest because no one wants to do poorly, but that's the structure of the system: only 26.6% will "succeed" and the rest will "fail". Wouldn't you hate to work your hardest, come in 9th or 10th in your class, and still be labeled a failure?


But that's not the way the school system is structured...at least I never experienced a class where the passing standard was that tough. Nevertheless, if I was placed in that situation and knew beforehand that finishing in the top 8 represented success - and I finished 9th or lower - then I'd just have to live with the fact that I didn't succeed in that situation.

[Dreamscape]

If a miracle doesn't occur, this will be the fourth consecutive year without a trip to the playoffs for the Braves. Cox has been given legend status, but that's not deserving in my mind. I'm not going to get into whether or not he abuses his relievers, relies on his veterans too much, etc. One world title with The Big Three. One. There were a few years where the team overacheived, but largely they underacheived. Any other city and maybe any other sport, Cox would have been fired in the late 90's or slightly later, but because in Atlanta, he's unfireable, that wasn't a possibility.

It's not all on him, no doubt. John Schuerholz was a vastly overrated general manager when he didn't have Ted Turner's money supporting his every decision. For years, the Braves drafted tools over ability, giving us high picks like Josh Burrus, Andre King, and Troy Cameron.

But it is completely acceptable that the playoffs are how a team and a manager are looked at. I can't believe that's even a question. How else do you do it? Sure, if your team has been losing for years, you seek some improvement. If you won 65 last year, you'd like to get 70-75 wins the next year. But, if your team is stagnant or even worse, moving backwards, that's a sign that something needs to be changed. Let's be honest, the players have been cycling in-and-out. That leaves one constant.

I guess I don't believe for one second he is a legend. A lot of that, I believe, is based on the streak. If you look at and say that has never been accomplished before, you are different from me. I look at and say...one friggin title. What a dissapointment.

[quick]

I am ready for a new direction; I'd like to see a SABREmetrician take over, personally.

But, Bobby is currently the fourth winningest manager of all time by total wins. His winning percentage is good--he has the best winning percentage of any active manager at .556. And many of the older managers who have better winning percentages or more WS wins managed in a time when there weren't many teams and when you won the pennant and went to the Series; we have three layers of playoffs today, making winning it all much tougher. And did you know only 24 managers in the history of the game have 2 or more WS wins? Only 8 managers have won more than 2, and how much stock can you give to anyone who manages the Yankees, what with all the talent they have had almost every year in the last 90 years. A lot beyond the manager's control must go right to get that ring.

By any standard, he is a great manager, a Hall of Fame manager.

Still, I am ready for some new direction, some new emphasis. But, I am sure there will be times in the future when I will wish Bobby were back in that dugout....

[Dreamscape]

At the same time, you can't blow up wins when expansion has deluded the talent pool so much that if you do have a concentration of talent, which Bobby has had, you will get a lot of wins being asleep at the wheel. Not that Cox was, but if you can throw out the Big Three every year, you will get a slew of wins come your way because they were so incredible. That leads to a lot of trips to the postseason.

It's probably true that it's tougher to win the World Series than it was pre-1969 and then pre-1994. But that doesn't make it impossible, as the Yankees showed three times and the Marlins twice during the streak. I just can't see the streak as something to praise. It's the Buffalo Bills. Yes, there is a title, but then, the Bills didn't have as many chances as the Braves did. And it's also true that a lot of variables that aren't under the manager's control must go right, but then, don't they have to go right to even make the playoffs? If he somehow managed his way into the playoffs because he's a great manager and then luck/injury/fatal flaws finally went against him once he reached October, that seems pretty vindictive of the baseball Gods.

[Lauren T.]

But that's not the way the school system is structured...at least I never experienced a class where the passing standard was that tough. Nevertheless, if I was placed in that situation and knew beforehand that finishing in the top 8 represented success - and I finished 9th or lower - then I'd just have to live with the fact that I didn't succeed in that situation.
*sigh* As usual, no one understands my hypotheticals. I don't even know why I post here.

[luvdembravos]

By any standard, he is a great manager, a Hall of Fame manager.

Yes, I totally agree. :thumbsup:

Still, I am ready for some new direction, some new emphasis.

Ditto. :thumbsup:


But, I am sure there are times in the future when I will wish Bobby were back in that dugout....

:confused: I doubt I'll feel that way ... I can't really think of any situation where I would want him back...it's sorta like my feelings regarding George Bush... I supported him for as long as I could but I'm sure glad he's gone and I don't want him back.

[Dreamscape]

*sigh* As usual, no one understands my hypotheticals. I don't even know why I post here.
I don't think your hypothetical applied much to the situation. I mean, I get it, missing the playoffs in itself does not make a team and its manager a failure. For instance, we all knew the Nats were not going to compete, but improvement was sought. For the Nats, the fact they didn't get a passing grade is not the problem, but how low they brought the curve is.

But the Braves are not in that boat. They are in the boat that paid $35M or so to get three new starters this year and still missed the playoffs. They haven't been horrible over the last four years (well, three of the last four years), but they haven't made the playoffs.

What your hypothetical lacks is what the students were expected to do. Expectations are a huge part here as well. You build it with your success or lower it with your failures. The expectations for the 2009 Braves were pretty high, I would say. Of course, the struggles of key positions destroyed the team through the first half. And not all of that is on Cox. But if you are expected to compete for a playoff spot and you fail to gain entrance to October, you have failed.

[luvdembravos]

*sigh* As usual, no one understands my hypotheticals. I don't even know why I post here.

I wasn’t trying to be contentious with you or argue that my way of thinking is better than yours. It’s definitely not … and I think everyone who has been around here for awhile knows you love the Braves but follow the team for other reasons than the final W-L record.

Oh, and I often ask myself why I even bother to post here. :)

[Hobbes]

Often is the time when I ask myself why I even bother to watch Braves games. :D

[Lauren T.]

The expectations for the 2009 Braves were pretty high, I would say. ... But if you are expected to compete for a playoff spot and you fail to gain entrance to October, you have failed.
That's where our opinions differ. Even with the boost to the rotation, having two closers, trading for McLouth, trading away Frenchy -- I still have never expected the Braves would make the playoffs in 2009. You never know what will happen, and I'll root for them all the way to the end, but I don't expect them to be playing beyond Oct 4. I don't now and I didn't in the spring.

Expectations don't factor at all for me. If I was a player, I'd try to ignore fan expectations and just play my best game.

[Wahoo]

IMO, if you aren't using the playoffs as a benchmark for measuring success then either a) you aren't trying to be competitive or b) don't think you can be. Most fans want to watch their team win and compete for championships. Can't do that if you aren't even qualifying for the post season.

[Dreamscape]

That's where our opinions differ. Even with the boost to the rotation, having two closers, trading for McLouth, trading away Frenchy -- I still have never expected the Braves would make the playoffs in 2009. You never know what will happen, and I'll root for them all the way to the end, but I don't expect them to be playing beyond Oct 4. I don't now and I didn't in the spring.

Expectations don't factor at all for me. If I was a player, I'd try to ignore fan expectations and just play my best game.
I wasn't really talking about you or me, but publications. Commentators at ESPN, FOX, Baseball Prospectus, and elsewhere put the expectations for the Braves pretty high. At least a Wild Card victory. Not all commentators thought the Braves would be playing in October, but a good enough portion made them a favorite to land a spot in baseball's elite eight.

Now, some might say preseason predictions are useless, but they are a result of offseason moves leading to higher expectations. And you can't tell me the Braves spent all that money in the offseason and won't believe they failed if they don't make it into the playoffs.

[Andy G.]

This is pointless. What's a failure? What's a success? If you want to be negative because, let's face it, some people take every chance they get to say something negative about their favorite team(doesn't mean you love them less, just means you love them in a different way), you're going to label every season that doesn't end in a playoff birth a "failure". It doesn't matter if you think it's a "failure", though. Bobby Cox can do a good job managing his team and still not make the playoffs. He's not on the field. I mean, according the "only one World Series" argument, Bobby Cox failed even when leading his team to the playoffs. Are you guys going to take every possible chance to label a season a "failure" for Bobby Cox? It seems so.

The manager can only do so much. He doesn't deserve too much credit or too much blame. Bobby Cox is a guy that from the very beginning of his coaching career has been treated like a guy with some serious talent. People recognized it in him when he was still a player, and he's gone on to be one of the most successful of all time. There's an argument to be made, because we don't even know how important a manager is to his team, let alone how to judge the manager's performance. The only factual information we have is that Bobby Cox has more wins than 99.9% of the managers over the history of baseball. You have to try pretty hard and ignore a lot of things to think that Bobby Cox is actually bad at his job.

[Wahoo]

This is pointless. What's a failure? What's a success? If you want to be negative because, let's face it, some people take every chance they get to say something negative about their favorite team(doesn't mean you love them less, just means you love them in a different way), you're going to label every season that doesn't end in a playoff birth a "failure". It doesn't matter if you think it's a "failure", though. Bobby Cox can do a good job managing his team and still not make the playoffs. He's not on the field. I mean, according the "only one World Series" argument, Bobby Cox failed even when leading his team to the playoffs. Are you guys going to take every possible chance to label a season a "failure" for Bobby Cox? It seems so.

The manager can only do so much. He doesn't deserve too much credit or too much blame. Bobby Cox is a guy that from the very beginning of his coaching career has been treated like a guy with some serious talent. People recognized it in him when he was still a player, and he's gone on to be one of the most successful of all time. There's an argument to be made, because we don't even know how important a manager is to his team, let alone how to judge the manager's performance. The only factual information we have is that Bobby Cox has more wins than 99.9% of the managers over the history of baseball. You have to try pretty hard and ignore a lot of things to think that Bobby Cox is actually bad at his job.

I don't think anyone is saying (at least I'm not) that just because not making the playoffs is considered a failure that it's indicative of the job that Cox did this year, just that making the playoffs is a failure, it's just not necessarily Cox's failure.

[quick]

IMO, if you aren't using the playoffs as a benchmark for measuring success then either a) you aren't trying to be competitive or b) don't think you can be. Most fans want to watch their team win and compete for championships. Can't do that if you aren't even qualifying for the post season.

How, then, do we explain the Cubs? Last Series win, 1908; last Series appearance, 1945. Compared to the Cubs, one of the most popular teams in baseball, we are the flippin' NY Yankees. The Cubs haven't won it all since Tinker to Evers to Chance....and their fans are soooooo obnoxious when they Cubbies come to Turner Field.

[Hobbes]

Cubs fans take a perverse kind of pleasure in being crappy.

[KB 34]

It's the 1930s sanitation system in Wrigley Field. That and falling bricks have weird effects on fans.