Rift between Cox and Wren

[alaskabravesfan]

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/09/22/bradleys-buzz-is-there-tension-between-cox-and-wren/?cxntfid=blogs_mark_bradley_blog

I am generally skeptical about rumors relating to MLB...too many of them turn out to be false. This one, however, seems to have some legs. Knowing how loyal Bobby Cox is to veteran players, it is not hard to believe that he would not be pleased with how Wren treated Smoltz and that he [Cox] would be angry enough to pack his car and threaten to leave.

If Frank Wren runs off Bobby Cox, he will be public enemy #1 in my book.

Yes, I am familiar with the arguments against Bobby Cox. I would also agree that this season hasn't been his best. Nevertheless, just like Chipper will rebound next year...I think Bobby Cox will too.

Frank Wren better give him that chance.

[bravos4evr]

IMO, if Bobby leaves it would be the best thing to happen to the franchise since we signed Maddux.. Bobby manages like it's 1899..... problem is its 2009. He doesn't seem to understand nor care about the importance of getting on base nor the stupidity of bunting and/or sacrifices........ I love him ,he's been a great icon in the teams history, but his old ass needs to go.

Oh and don't even get me started with how he handles a pitching staff.....................

[Andy G.]

The Braves are having a good year. The team has played well. They'll probably finish a little short of a playoff birth, but that does not mean that the management and players did not have a successful season. The problem is that the players we have, even while doing all they can, do not have everything they need to make the playoffs. Seriously, does anybody here doubt that the Braves would be in the playoffs if we had a serious power bat in the middle of our lineup? Come on. We have a great pitching staff and really good players throughout our lineup, we just don't have enough power.

Bobby manages his pitching staff fine. How do we have the fourth best ERA in baseball if our manager isn't managing those guys the right way? You can't give the credit for the things we do well to the players then place the blame for the things we do poorly on the manager. That would make you a fan looking for somebody to blame, rather than accepting the shortcomings of the team. There are teams lacking much more than the Braves with a worse wins/loss record. Does every one of those teams have a bad manager and/or general manager? As for the three guys who are "overused" in our bullpen, let's check out their numbers after the All Star break.

Peter Moylan IP H ER HR BB K WHIP ERA BAA
29.1 24 2 0 8 27 1.09 0.61 .224

Mike Gonzalez IP H ER HR BB K WHIP ERA BAA
27.1 18 4 3 14 29 1.17 1.32 1.86

Rafael Soriano IP H ER HR BB K WHIP ERA BAA
26.2 28 17 5 9 34 1.39 5.74 .264

I'd love to see how well Moylan and Gonzalez would have pitched if they weren't overused, right? As for Soriano, there are too many reasons why a pitcher would have a bad second half for anybody to say with certainty that his workload is the main reason for his struggles since the All Star break, especially with Gonzo and Moylan pitching as well as they have.

Bobby handles his relievers fine, and throughout his career with the Braves he's consistently had a top notch pitching staff. Before you bring up Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz, there were tons of pitchers who weren't hall of famers turning in good performances in Atlanta. You just can't go an entire decade plus with one of the best pitching staffs every single year and have no clue how to manage.

Of course you can make a good argument against Bobby, because there's no way to accurately measure a manager's performance. It's a little ridiculous, though, when people say things like "if Bobby leaves it would be the best thing to happen to the franchise since we signed Maddux".

Mark Bradley, by the way, is an idiot and a tool. Here's a perfect example of why,
But it also must be noted that even Schuerholz was so distressed by the way the Braves cut ties with Glavine that he offered an apology on behalf of the organization.
Bradley knows that's not why Schuerholz issued that statement. He did that as a PR move because it was the second Braves legend to be cast aside in just a few months time, and it looked pretty bad(especially to casual fans). There's absolutely no reason to assume that JS was "distressed by the way the Braves cut ties with Glavine". JS knows that was the right thing to do, and Bradley knows that. Still, in order to make a story where there isn't one, because that's the best way to get people to read his bull****, he says things that he knows are false.

L + 7 = WEENIE

Even if it's true that Bobby and Wren aren't on the best terms because of the Smoltz situation, I wouldn't be upset with Wren. It's understandable why Cox would feel that way, and I've always thought(from the very beginning) that Wren didn't do anything majorly wrong with Smoltz. JS probably started all of it with the way he treated Smoltz and his tender feelings for the past twenty years.

[Hobbes]

You mention Bradley. Here are his 5 reasons Bobby Cox needs to hang it up now. (http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/09/21/5-reasons-bobby-cox-needs-to-hang-it-up/)

1. He has nothing to prove.
2. He’s 68 years old.
3. He’s not quite the manager he once was.
4. He’s getting even more stubborn, which is never good.
5. Put simply, it’s time.
(Details on each at the link.)


He also lists the 5 candidates to take over the Braves after Bobby Cox (http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/09/21/5-candidates-to-take-over-the-braves-after-bobby-cox/)


1. Brad Mills, Red Sox bench coach
2. Jose Oquendo, Cardinals third base coach
3. Dave Duncan, Cardinals pitching coach
4. Terry Pendleton, Braves hitting coach
5. Scott Ullger, Twins third base coach
(Details on each at the link.)

[bravos4evr]

Gilley, if I was blaming him for the season you would be right. I'm not, howevah, I think that if we had a mgr who was a better in game mgr and didn't burn up relievers and put player loyalty over winning games, and who understood sabremetrics, this team would have won 2 or 3 more WS and would maybe would have made it to a few more..... I think Bobby may be the greatest player's mgr of all time, but on the fild he has always been mediocre( and I have said this for 20 years).

[argentina brave]

Gilley, if I was blaming him for the season you would be right. I'm not, howevah, I think that if we had a mgr who was a better in game mgr and didn't burn up relievers and put player loyalty over winning games, and who understood sabremetrics, this team would have won 2 or 3 more WS and would maybe would have made it to a few more..... I think Bobby may be the greatest player's mgr of all time, but on the fild he has always been mediocre( and I have said this for 20 years).

i just don't see how we can speculate on how many WS the braves coulda shoulda won with/without cox. managers tactical value is an overrated metric, in my view. cox has always had a good feel for pitchers, the game, and put us in a helluva position to compete for a long time. yet, everyone wants to throw him under the bus because he isn't a new-age sabremetrician. that doesn't make him garbage. :hissyfit:

[argentina brave]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/cox-to-retire-after-145108.html?cxntlid=brkng_nws_bnr

[luvdembravos]

Well, it's official. One more year for Cox...for now.

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20090923&content_id=7114908&vkey=pr_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

[absintheofmalaise]

And then 5 more years as a consultant. Better than signing TP though. I was really hoping for some new blood. Inertia is not a good thing at times.

[bravos4evr]

i just don't see how we can speculate on how many WS the braves coulda shoulda won with/without cox. managers tactical value is an overrated metric, in my view. cox has always had a good feel for pitchers, the game, and put us in a helluva position to compete for a long time. yet, everyone wants to throw him under the bus because he isn't a new-age sabremetrician. that doesn't make him garbage. :hissyfit:

IMO, the Braves won despite Bobby Cox. I think he's a good judge of talent and knows how to motivate players. But he has never been a very good manager of the game.

If you think he has a good feel for pitchers.....I just don't know what to say to ya. He's always been horrible with pitchers, heck half the reason we did as well as we did was Leo's ability to kick butts out there.

[ScooterBrave]

You mean Leo who went on to lead an absolutely horrendous pitching staff at Baltimore? That Leo? Or does that not count because he didn't have much to work with?

You can't have it both ways. We have had good staffs and great ones and Bobby and Leo made the best of them within their capacity. But they weren't great because of Bobby and Leo, they were already great; Bobby and Leo simply helped create a situation in which they could excel.

I agree that way too much emphasis is placed on this manager or that manager making all the difference with a ball club. I believe it is a great deal of being in the right place at the right time; a good manager makes the most of it and gives it a chance to succeed and a bad manager wastes the opportunity.

[Braves N 10]

I was hoping this was Bobbys last year and that Ned Yost would come in and take his place.

[Rynliquid]

I can't wait for the sheer opportunity to prove what I've been saying all these years about how good a manager he really is.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

The likelihood of that seems far-fetched, Rynliquid. Unless you know how to provide the next guy with the same opportunities for success that Cox has had, you can't prove it.
Most of you know how I feel about Cox, especially if you were around when I was writing a column at the old sites. I think he's the best personnel manager but he's not on the map as an in-game manager or as a pitching staff manager. The best he did with the pitchers was to shut up and let the pitching coach run things. Leo was blessed with scads of talent, but he was also one of the first that I recall who really designed a pen that rarely asked for more than an inning out of anybody. That was a luxury because of the terrific starters the Braves had. By being able to count on the starters to go deep into games, Leo and Cox were able to give several guys like Remlinger a career re-birth. Most faded quickly after leaving the Braves. I think Cox has a very capable man running the staff now, I just wish they'd remember there are more than 3 or 4 guys out there!
I tend to believe the Wren - Cox flare-up is real. Cox has always been pretty low key, and would probably have preferred to just manage the team then retire after the season so the focus would be on the team. He wouldn't want to create any extra crap for the team to deal with. Announcing his retirement plan was probably done to placate Wren. Now he feels like he knows when Cox will be out of the dugout picture and he may plan accordingly. Cox gets the glad-hand from the fans and press as he makes his final season. It just smells a bit fishy to me.....

[warefreak]

I also think it was real. I like what Wren has done with this team (except Lowe), but he is definitely different than what Cox is. He is 100% business and doesn't care what you've done in the past, but what yo can do now. Cox loves Glavine and Smoltz and Wren wasn't going to hang onto em. Two extremely different points of view had to come to conflict somewhat...

Just for the record I am glad the two of them aren't pitching for us this year, but I do think Wren should have offered some form of a coaching/leadership position with the organization and showed a great deal more respect and appreciation. I don't think he handled it right whatsoever.

I love Bobby and what he's done, but I do think it's time for a new manager. I just hope Bobby can teach the new guy how to treat their team so that everybody loves playing for him and wants to play for him.

[Andy G.]

Some tension, I can buy. But this...

According to a major league source, the relationship between Cox and GM Frank Wren deteriorated during the spring to the point that Cox packed his bag and climbed into his car to drive home from spring training until dissuaded from doing so by one of his coaches.

There's no way that's true. Bobby Cox would not pack his things and threaten to leave the team in spring training. I just can't believe there's any truth to that.