Gamethread: Mets @ Braves, July 18, 2009 (91/162) LOSS

[sdp]

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5703/mets.png
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New York Mets (42-47) vs. Atlanta Braves (45-45)
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Series Matchups (Braves lead, 2-0)
> Thursday: Braves 5, Mets 3 (W: Acosta; L: Feliciano; S: Soriano) - Recap (http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5582331&c_id=atl) | Box Score (http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2009_07_16_nynmlb_atlmlb_1) | Gamethread (http://www.chopnation.com/boards/showthread.php?t=200)
> Friday: Braves 11, Mets 0 (W: Jurrjens; L: Pelfrey) - Recap (http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5602821&c_id=atl) | Box Score (http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2009_07_17_nynmlb_atlmlb_1) | Gamethread (http://www.chopnation.com/boards/showthread.php?t=204)
> TODAY: Johan Santana vs. Kenshin Kawakami, 4:05 PM EDT on FOX
> Sunday: Fernando Nieve vs. Javier Vazquez, 6:05 PM EDT on ESPN

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Starting Lineup
Nate McLouth, CF
Martin Prado, 2B
Chipper Jones, 3B
Brian McCann, C
Yunel Escobar, SS
Matt Diaz, LF
Casey Kotchman, 1B
Ryan Church, RF
Kenshin Kawakami, P

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Link Roundup


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Upcoming vs. San Fransisco
Monday, July 20th: Jonathan Sanchez vs. Tommy Hanson, 7:05 PM EDT on SPSO
Tuesday, July 21st: Ryan Sadowski vs. Derek Lowe, 7:05 PM EDT on PTV
Wednesday, July 22nd: Tim Lincecum vs. Jair Jurrjens, 7:05 PM EDT on PTV
Thursday, July 23rd: Barry Zito vs. Kenshin Kawakami, 1:05 PM EDT on SPSO

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July 24th-26th: Braves @ Brewers; July 28th-29th: Braves @ Marlins
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Go Braves!

[hoosjon]

So Fox is showing the O's-Chisox and thusly I can neither see it on my cable TV, nor can I see it on mlb.tv. Stupid Fox. :furious:

[Andy G.]

Ken Rosenthal just said that, along with Escobar's concentration issues and "flash", there are questions within the Braves' clubhouse about some of Escobar's injuries. He said they think he ducks out against tougher pitchers.

[Andy G.]

No score after two innings, BTW. Prado doubled in the first, but that's all we've done so far. Dude is white hot right now. And as I type that he makes a nice diving play in the field. Kawakami looks good as well.

[JanShan12]

Prado and Escobar have both made amazing diving plays in today's game.

[JanShan12]

Wish I could keep watching, but I'm headed to pick up 2 tickets for tonight's Cardinals/Diamondbacks game in St. Louis. A friend had bought 2 $65 tickets and can't go to the game, so she's selling them to me for $25 each. Couldn't pass up that deal to sit in the "redbird club" at Busch Stadium. My brother and I are going to the game to celebrate his birthday (on Monday). Keep me posted on the game. I'll be reading the thread when I get home tonight.

[Andy G.]

Kawakami and Santana are both cruising. Still no score through four and a half.

[Andy G.]

Good at bat by Diaz to draw the leadoff walk.

[Andy G.]

Church drew a walk giving us two baserunners with one out. Kawakami's bunt attempt resulted in Santana getting Diaz at third base, and Diaz taking out David Wright with an aggressive slide to break up any chance at a double play. McLouth then flew out to end the inning. Still no score.

[Andy G.]

Castillo starts the sixth with a base hit and gets to second on a fielders choice. Now the Braves are intentionally walking Wright for the second time today. He should get used to that, because with Francoeur hitting behind him, it's going to keep happening.

[Andy G.]

Dang. Francoeur pounds the ball into the dirt and gets an infield single because of the high bounce. Bases loaded with one out and Jeremy Reed is at the plate.

[Andy G.]

Kawakami walks him, and the Braves are losing to the Mets 1-0 in the sixth.

[Dreamscape]

Give the punchless Mets a run.

That's the ticket!

[Andy G.]

A well placed ground ball between short and third gets the Mets another run. Two outs now. Stop the bleeding, KK.

[Andy G.]

Ok. We're out of it. 2-0 Mets, going to the bottom of the sixth.

[Dreamscape]

I guess that was limiting damage. A little bad luck, but walking a guy with the bases loaded after a first pitch strike is just inexcuseable.

[Andy G.]

I guess that was limiting damage. A little bad luck, but walking a guy with the bases loaded after a first pitch strike is just inexcuseable.
Yeah, I hope that doesn't cost us the win.

[BraveFan]

those are two of the luckiest runs I've ever seen. Frenchy hits a chopper off the plate and then a walk then a grounder too slow for a double play.

[Dreamscape]

Maybe that can get a two out rally going.

[Andy G.]

Alright, McCann gets on with two outs thanks to an error by Cora. Come on Escobar, we need a bomb.

[Dreamscape]

Or...no.

[Dreamscape]

Great job by O'Flaherty to strand the pitcher at second. Can't ever walk the pitcher, Kenshin. Now, hey, get some runs, offense.

[BraveFan]

I will take 6 and 2/3 every time out of a starting pitcher and two runs. Especially when he didn't have to throw many stressful pitches and the two runs were a fluke.

[Dreamscape]

There's a start.

Time for Kotchman to channel his inner Prince Fielder.

[Dreamscape]

A Ric Flair!

w000000??

[Dreamscape]

I know it's Santana...but you gotta get a run.

You just have to.

[ATL2123]

McClouth has just looked lost at the plate today, cost us a couple of times today with RISP

[BraveFan]

That is horrible hitting by McLouth, anyone that knows anything knows that Santana was going to throw a change up there, and it wasn't even a good change up Santana missed his spot by a foot.

[Dreamscape]

Great at-bat!!!

Hey, we have a guy with 10 homers!

[Dreamscape]

Can I say...I don't like lifting McCann here. I know you may get some speed on the basepaths, but if you tie or if in the ninth, there is a base open and Chipper is up with a chance to tie it, they will definitely walk Chipper.

But I guess the idea is to cross that bridge if you get to it.

Still not happy about it.

[BraveFan]

I guess Yunel is back on the trade block.

[Dreamscape]

As much as Esco screwed up and didn't even offer at the pitch (he probably wouldn't have done anything positive with it anyway), it was a bad call to send Hernandez, who is not a basestealer, with a 2-0 count against a pitcher who has struggled most of the year.

Cox can be angry with Esco...he also needs to be angry with himself.

[BraveFan]

As much as Esco screwed up and didn't even offer at the pitch (he probably wouldn't have done anything positive with it anyway), it was a bad call to send Hernandez, who is not a basestealer, with a 2-0 count against a pitcher who has struggled most of the year.

Cox can be angry with Esco...he also needs to be angry with himself.

It was a hit and run and if Esco just stays in the way of the catcher he probably gets hit by the pitch and if not that then the catcher probably can't throw out hernandez.

[slowride]

Once again I'm not getting the game. Damn you red tape!!!!!

[ATL2123]

It's all up to Norton here...

[ATL2123]

Please release Greg Norton right now:mad: We have to have better options in the minors than this guy (what about Canizares?)

[Dreamscape]

Sad, sad, sad.

We can only score a run with the bases empty.

This is where the lack of pop really hurts you. If you can get a double, the whole inning changes.

[sdp]

Fail.

Worst strategical manager in the history of baseball.

[Hobbes]

Fail.

Epic fail. He got two straight fastballs right down the middle and he missed them both.

[Dreamscape]

Cox has managed this game to lose.

Soriano? You warm him up and you don't use him? I'm sorry, I don't care about the term closer...you can't give up a run. Acosta is not that good.

[Andy G.]

As much as Esco screwed up and didn't even offer at the pitch (he probably wouldn't have done anything positive with it anyway), it was a bad call to send Hernandez, who is not a basestealer, with a 2-0 count against a pitcher who has struggled most of the year.

Cox can be angry with Esco...he also needs to be angry with himself.
It doesn't matter if he's a basestealer. It's a hit and run. Escobar handles the bat as well as anybody on the team, and we could have tied the game with that run. Escobar is an idiot. He gets all the blame for that one.

[BraveFan]

So far the only smart move Cox has made is to walk Wright 3 times to get to Frenchy.

[BraveFan]

It doesn't matter if he's a basestealer. It's a hit and run. Escobar handles the bat as well as anybody on the team, and we could have tied the game with that run. Escobar is an idiot. He gets all the blame for that one.

Three things are to blame for this loss:

1) Escobar missing that sign
2) Cox for pinch hitting Norton instead of Ross
3) McLouth's stupid AB in the 7th.

[Dreamscape]

I will contend that the call was idiotic. The execution was pathetic, but the call was idiotic.

And Francoeur gets an RBI with a weak single. Yay.

[BraveFan]

I actually think it was a good hit and run call, if Escobar just swings at all and misses the pitch the catcher probably doesn't throw out Hernandez.

[Andy G.]

I will contend that the call was idiotic. The execution was pathetic, but the call was idiotic.

And Francoeur gets an RBI with a weak single. Yay.
I don't like arguing smart calls and dumb calls, because it's a pointless discussion. Anybody can talk about how bad a call is after it doesn't work out, and it's easy to ignore every decision that works out and focus only on those that don't. Still, there are obviously times when your criticisms are justifiable.

What's idiotic about that call, though? He called a hit and run with his best hit and run candidate at the plate. Why does the baserunner need to be a threat to steal for it to be a good call?

[Dreamscape]

No, the baserunner doesn't need to be a threat to steal, but pitcher comes out of the pen and his first two are out of the zone. Now, on 2-1, I can see this call being valid. I understand the argument being either "what's the difference between 2-0 and 2-1" or "down 2-0, he knows he has to throw a strike," but to me, you always make the pitcher prove he can throw a strike. 2-0, the hitter should be thinking "if this one is down the middle, I'm hammering it. Otherwise, no way am I swinging." On 2-1, you want to avoid going down 2-2 and forcing yourself to send the runner to avoid the double play.

Cox basically took the bat out of one of his best bats on three straight pitches. Escobar should have attempted to make contact, though I shudder to think what would have happened had he been able to.

I also hate the call to use the pinch runner. While it ultimately didn't hurt the Braves, I only would have called a pinch runner if McCann was already in scoring position. That's how I manage in OOTP, I guess.

But Cox and I would be completely different managers in a tight situation. He has the wins, not me, but I can't help but think he manages to lose in close games.

[hoosjon]

Once again I'm not getting the game. Damn you red tape!!!!!

I'm late getting back to the board! Sorry, dude. Next time this happens to you, go to channelsurfing.net ... though you missed a GREAT game to miss. I personally managed to miss the 11-0 shutout, with a slow dial-up connection at the Outer Banks.

Apparently, they have all the Fox, ESPN games, don't know about MLBNetwork ... for the people that get screwed by the regional matchups, etc. Hope that helps in the future, y'all!

As for me, I gave up when we let Frenchy hustle out a double by bobbling the ball and failing to cover second. It hurts to hear the Fox guys say that the Mets are doing all the little things and that helps them when their big bats are injured. WE DON'T HAVE ALL THOSE PLAYERS OUT AND WE'RE PLAYING LIKE CRAP!!! :wall:

[Dreamscape]

I hate saying "must-win." Especially when there remains quite a bit of baseball left to be played. I also hate the bait and switch, but tomorrow is a must-win game.

In the long scheme of things, you can look back at this three game series and say, "yeah, going in, I practically wrote off that game against Santana anyway," but if we come out of this series under .500, it will be same ol' same ol' for the Braves this year, despite the solid play of late. End this series at 46-46 and you have done something positive. Waste the first two games of the series by dropping the last two...you're the same team that sweeps the Phils, but drops 2 of 3 to the Nats.

[hoosjon]

I agree about "must-win" games, but "SHOULD win" games, like those against the Nats or the Bucs or playing against the almost comically depleted Mets ... these are the ones we NEED to win to balance out games against a true ACE pitcher.

I can accept losing to Johan Santana. I have real difficulty knowing that we loaded the bases TWICE and made little errors (whether managerial or misplayed on the field) that literally cost us the win ... and hearing the Fox guys point it out ad nauseam (as well as showing and reshowing the slide into David Wright) just makes it that much more distasteful. Makes me yearn for the days when Jon Miller was calling Jordan Schafer "Logan".

I think if we don't win tomorrow, we are backing our way out of the playoffs, though it's just one little step.

[BigWorm]

Damn Dream. How many times you gonna hold the knife to the Braves throat ready to kill their season over a game? I'm surprised we made it this long in your eyes.

[BraveFan]

If the Braves win tomorrow it means that we won 3 out of 4 from the Mets and only lossed to Santana, I would take that everytime.

[Chris_Moderato]

Here's (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/braves-offense-sputters-against-mets-94930.html) why it's really hard to want to keep Escobar on this team:

Escobar, who won’t do interviews in English, was asked through relief pitcher Mike Gonzalez to clarify whether he saw the sign or didn’t think there was anything he could do with the inside pitch.

Gonzalez said that Escobar replied, “Talk to me when I get three hits.”

You know what, Yunel? F*** you.

[BraveFan]

Here's (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/braves-offense-sputters-against-mets-94930.html) why it's really hard to want to keep Escobar on this team:



You know what, Yunel? F*** you.

it might be time to trade him b/c i don't see this will work out as long as he and bobby are here

[Hobbes]

Kid's just not very bright. Even if you don't want to do what the manager is telling you to do, at least fake it by saying the right things.

[wordslayer©]

Players like Escobar are what gives Bobby trouble with his being a player's manager. He just isn't able to get Escobar to tone down his act. A manager like Frank Robinson or someone of his type is just what Escobar needs. In my opinion, Escobar is not like a belligerent young Gary Sheffield. He is just incredibly immature, and not smart enough yet to realize that he is his own worst enemy.

Bobby isn't going to be able to control him, so I just can't see a scenario where the two of them will remain in the same clubhouse.

[-Dr. Brave-]

Here was Bobby's take on Escobar's busted hit-and-run:

"It was inside, three or four inches," Cox said. "I think he thought it was way in."

In Escobar's defense, it was an unhittable pitch. He swings at it and he probably breaks one of his hands. It wasn't as far inside as Escobar made it look, but it was a lot more than three or four inches.

[slowride]

Here's (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-braves/braves-offense-sputters-against-mets-94930.html) why it's really hard to want to keep Escobar on this team:



You know what, Yunel? F*** you.

Agreed 100%.

Also, with vazquez pitching tomorrow...we damn well better get him a win!

Also, thanks to hoosjon for the information. I have the MLB package, and FOX tends to screw me every chance they get!

[BraveFan]

Here was Bobby's take on Escobar's busted hit-and-run:



In Escobar's defense, it was an unhittable pitch. He swings at it and he probably breaks one of his hands. It wasn't as far inside as Escobar made it look, but it was a lot more than three or four inches.

Say it was the right decision to not swing at the pitch, it was still stupid to jump out of the way and give the catcher a wide open throwing lane to gun down the runner. It was not going to hit him and by either swinging and missing or just staying in there you atleast limit the ability of the catcher to throw out the runner.

I'm more troubled by Yunel's comments afterwards about how the media should talk to him when he does well than I am about the hit and run problem today. That statement Yunel made was basically saying it didn't matter and that it is about himself.

I'm at a crossroads about the idea of trading Yunel b/c I don't think he and Bobby can co-exist much longer and I am at the sametime afraid that we won't get fair compensation and that I really fear that Yunel will eventually be a superstar in this league and an all-star for years to come. If we had Elvis Andrus still I think Yunel would be gone.

[slowride]

If we had Elvis Andrus still I think Yunel would be gone.

Being from Dallas, and seeing what this guy does as well as his attitude, it's not even a question.

I think Yunel's attitude ballooned when we let Andrus go and said "Yunel, you're our guy."

Cocky son of a bitch needs a reality check.

[BraveFan]

Yunel does need a reality check but it might be past that and either just put him out there or trade him. Benching him may just create more problems between him and Cox. I think we are in a bind b/c while we could use him to get an outfielder the truth is that would be a short term fix even if it was for a young player b/c the Braves have about 1,000,000,000,000 Outfield prospects while nothing at SS.

[Hobbes]

In Escobar's defense, it was an unhittable pitch. He swings at it and he probably breaks one of his hands. It wasn't as far inside as Escobar made it look, but it was a lot more than three or four inches.

Yeah, he couldn't do anything with the pitch, but I've seen plenty of hitters swing at totally unhittable garbage just trying to protect the runner on a hit-and-run. If the hit-and-run is called, you find a way to swing.

[hoosjon]

Yeah, he couldn't do anything with the pitch, but I've seen plenty of hitters swing at totally unhittable garbage just trying to protect the runner on a hit-and-run. If the hit-and-run is called, you find a way to swing.

I'm thinking he could either stand in the catcher's way or do the Kruk vs. Randy Johnson ole' swing and at least make the catcher think about stepping out as he throws.

And big-leaguing the press afterwards is just another sign that he is all about himself and not about the game. If I were Mike Gonzalez, I'd have to "interpret" that into something nicer and MAKE Yunel admit he can speak English.

[Dreamscape]

Damn Dream. How many times you gonna hold the knife to the Braves throat ready to kill their season over a game? I'm surprised we made it this long in your eyes.
If I had the power to let the Braves season live or die, things would be a lot better.

[JanShan12]

Thanks for all the updates, guys! I had to read all the posts to figure out what the announcers were talking about tonight about a situation with Escobar. Thanks again!

[BraveFan]

1 to 1 after a freakin RBI from Francoeur, well atleast it was a legit hit for him.

[Hobbes]

1 to 1 after a freakin RBI from Francoeur, well atleast it was a legit hit for him.

This is yesterday's game thread.

[Hillbilly]

Yeah, he couldn't do anything with the pitch, but I've seen plenty of hitters swing at totally unhittable garbage just trying to protect the runner on a hit-and-run. If the hit-and-run is called, you find a way to swing.


I'm a couple of days late on this conversation, but I'm not convinced he ever understood the sign to begin with. Fox cameras caught it perfectly and they replayed it later. Yunel took a long look at the 3B Coach for the sign. Then as he was stepping into the box he took a deer-in-the-headlights stare into the dugout, clearly lost and looking for help. Karros nailed it. He should have called time and started over with the signs, or called a huddle with Snitker. I don't think it was a failed execution. I think the play was busted before he ever stepped into the box.

[Lauren T.]

If I were Mike Gonzalez, I'd have to "interpret" that into something nicer
Gregor Blanco used to do that when he played interpretor. I understand enough Spanish to know what Yunie was saying and what Gregor was relaying were NOT always the same sentiments!

I don't think Yunel's big head started with Elvis being traded -- I think it goes all the way back to Renteria being let go. At the time, yes, Yunel was a smarter team choice over Rent (although I loved him). Now, what's our backup plan? :(