Hey...Wren...you're not done with the outfield...

[Dreamscape]

Can we just end this Garret(t) Anderson experiment once and for all? Are you telling me that Brandon Jones couldn't post a .707 OPS? Really? You telling me that Jones couldn't at least make a move toward a ball hit to left?

Not that Jones is amazing or anything and maybe Infante could play some left when he returns. But it's better than Anderson and his quest to never get on base.

That's right, Anderson. You're my new Failcoeur.

[wordslayer©]

I wish players/managers came to this website to read commentary.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

But Word....what makes you think they don't?
Welcome aboard the Joggin' GA trainwreck! I can put up with guys not being that skilled or not having big talent but there's no excuse for the half-hearted effort Joggin' brings. Before his defenders rail, no I can't see into his heart but when I see him jog after balls in the outfield, jog on the bases and essentially underarm his throws to the infield in any circumstance, I see a loafer. The only logic at play here is Cox's. He used to crush guys who didn't play hard but I guess he's hesitant to rip GA off the field and show him up. He's a veteran. At some point his lackadaisical approach will be obvious to Cox, like when he continues to slide at the plate. At that point, barring a trade for a real hitter, Cox will make his move.
If someone wakes him up.

[Dreamscape]

...Anderson has defenders?

Really?

[KB 34]

If the Braves put Jones in LF and took a look at him I'd be happy. If the Braves said they planned on moving Prado or KJ there for a while when KJ gets healthy I'd be happy. Infante when he returns would be better. To me Anderson has no future with the Braves and isn't good at present so someone with a potential future is the obvious choice.

[Devil Wears Prado]

I'm with you on this one, Dreamscape. I've always wondered why we couldn't just stick with Brandon Jones... why did we have to go out and get Garret Anderson when we had someone that could post up similar, maybe even better numbers in left? Not to mention Brandon Jones is a much better defender than Garret... I'm just thinking we could have used that money towards Garret / Glavine to get someone like Abreu or to strengthen our bullpen.

[KB 34]

Anderson is a veteran and we all know what this team thinks of washed up veterans. It didn't matter as much back in the day but with more competition in the NL East it's a bit important.

[BraveFan]

I was a defender of Anderson early on b/c I thought he could still hit well enough to cover up the rest of his game but have come to the conclusion he isn't enough of an offensive threat anymore and like you guys said he has no future here anyway. However I don't think Brandon Jones is any better and if he had a real future in the MLB w/ the Braves he wouldn't be AAA for this many years. I would put KJ back in LF and see how that goes if there isn't a trade for an outfielder out there.

[ChopTime]

Anderson is a veteran and we all know what this team thinks of washed up veterans. It didn't matter as much back in the day but with more competition in the NL East it's a bit important.




Not to detract from the current subject, but we've already sent two washed-up veterans unceremoniously packing in Smoltz and Glavine, as well as shipping the hometown poster-boy North, so I'm not sure you are really correct in your implication there.

[ChopTime]

I was a defender of Anderson early on b/c I thought he could still hit well enough to cover up the rest of his game but have come to the conclusion he isn't enough of an offensive threat anymore and like you guys said he has no future here anyway. However I don't think Brandon Jones is any better and if he had a real future in the MLB w/ the Braves he wouldn't be AAA for this many years. I would put KJ back in LF and see how that goes if there isn't a trade for an outfielder out there.


I agree with this. Anderson is an average hitter with occasional power and below average defense. But like you said, I don't think Brandon Jones would be any better, perhaps better defensively but I think he'd hurt us more offensively.

Is there a chance that someone might be interested in taking Anderson on as a DH?

[BraveFan]

It could be worse though the Braves could have signed Griffey who is having a much worse season than Anderson.

[BraveFan]

I agree with this. Anderson is an average hitter with occasional power and below average defense. But like you said, I don't think Brandon Jones would be any better, perhaps better defensively but I think he'd hurt us more offensively.

Is there a chance that someone might be interested in taking Anderson on as a DH?

The Angels might want him back with their injuries to Vlad and Hunter.

[JESouth10]

I dont think that the solution is to get rid of GA but instead make a move to get an outfielder and keep him around to come off the bench, i was thinking and the twins need a second baseban and some pitching so we might could ship kelly johnson and say Kawakami (i would rather trade him than vasquez) and get back Michael Cuddyer and a low-mid level prospect in return.
That may not be very realistic but i think it could work, another option could be trying to get either Vernon wells or Alex Rios from the sinking Blue jays.

[Dreamscape]

I just don't think the Braves have the money to go get an impact bat.

As for the thought that if Jones was any better, he'd be in the majors already, it's not like Jones has been stuck at AAA for four or five years like a Damon Hollins clone. He played in 44 games in Richmond two years ago, all of last year (minus a few trips to Atlanta), and has been with Gwinnett all this year (again, minus time in Atlanta). Sure, he hasn't set the world on fire by any means. A .765 OPS won't amaze anyone and his power has disappeared. That said, I honestly can't see him doing any worse than Anderson at the plate and the defensive advantage would help Jones give the Braves much more.

But I'd be find with an outfield of Diaz/McLouth/Church with maybe KJ or someone shifting to left with Diaz going to right against lefthanders. Anderson isn't the out sucking machine Francoeur was, but he's not that far off. While I'd love an impact bat, or at least one who is laboring in platoon hell with the ability to do more things, I'm sure where the Braves will find the money outside of dealing Vazquez, which they apparently do not want to do.

[KB 34]

Not to detract from the current subject, but we've already sent two washed-up veterans unceremoniously packing in Smoltz and Glavine, as well as shipping the hometown poster-boy North, so I'm not sure you are really correct in your implication there.
The Braves didn't send Smoltz packing. They offered him 50% the money the Red Sox did and he left town. Given the financial means to keep him I guarantee they would have. As much as the Braves say Glavine wasn't a financial move it was pretty obvious the move was financial, which was a wonderful move. Francoeur was a move I never saw coming and made me really excited. However, historically speaking of the recent Braves they still have a trend of letting washed up veterans get too many chances when they prove they're washed up. There have been indications this might be improving such as Francoeur being dumped and in the recent past Wickman and others being dumped. I'm not convinced the problem is solved though and that's where Anderson comes into play.

[BraveFan]

I wonder what the Braves will do with the bench when Infante comes back: I think so far Conard has earned a spot and as a power hitting switch hitter I think he takes Norton's spot. I think Infante takes Diory's spot, but will the Braves trade or bring KJ back up? I think KJ should only be on the team as a starter b/c he is such a hot/cold hitter you can't trust to pinch hit a guy who is so hot and cold plus he is a defensive liability.

[Dreamscape]

Where are the numbers that he's a defensive liability? I know he has been in the past and may, after a full year, be that again, but his defensive metrics (while they are flawed, they are definitely worthwhile) are very solid this year.

[luvdembravos]

Where are the numbers that he's a defensive liability? I know he has been in the past and may, after a full year, be that again, but his defensive metrics (while they are flawed, they are definitely worthwhile) are very solid this year.


Who needs numbers when evaluating KJ's defensive ability. A set of eye balls is all one needs. :eek:

[Dreamscape]

Compared to non-Utley 2B, you'd be hard pressed to say that he's any worse then.

The thing about numbers is it allows some evidence into the argument. My eyes aren't telling me he's a defensive liability. He's not a super 2B, but he's no worse than Giles was. Since the Lemmer's days, I'd rank Boone obviously above him, but that's about it.

[luvdembravos]

My eyes aren't telling me he's a defensive liability.

Time for you to visit an optometrist or is love really blind? ;)

[Dreamscape]

But that implies that one, you are completely objective, and two, your eyes are worthy of scouting the major leagues. Of course, defense is largely guesswork, especially when you don't bother with the numbers. You guess he should make this play or this play. That's why I don't think much of it. I can't gauge how good your eyes are and you can't gauge how good mine are. But I can look at his numbers and see improvement.

But again, maybe his defense would, as his offense would, correct itself and his defensive numbers would take a fall again. But third year playing second, he was definitely coming into his own.

[jamminHANES]

In order to rely completely on your eyes and not on statistics you would have needed to watch every opportunity a given player has had to field a ball and make an out. I doubt you or anyone else has done this with any player on any roster.

[luvdembravos]

In order to rely completely on your eyes and not on statistics you would have needed to watch every opportunity a given player has had to field a ball and make an out. I doubt you or anyone else has done this with any player on any roster.

Aw, you have a lot to learn about statistics. You see, one doesn't have to watch EVERY game to determine that KJ is not a good fielder. Using a sample size of n = 50 games, I have determined (within a 95% confidence interval) that KJ is a poor defender. :D :rolleyes:

[jamminHANES]

The problem isn't the amount of games, its the difference between a good player and a mediocre to bad player. The amount of chances a good player gets to compared to a bad one is too minuscule to determine by eye rather than by statistics.

[luvdembravos]

The problem isn't the amount of games, its the difference between a good player and a mediocre to bad player. The amount of chances a good player gets to compared to a bad one is too minuscule to determine by eye rather than by statistics.

Huh? :confused:

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

Any word on Infante? he could be an upgrade over Anderson...

[jamminHANES]

Huh? :confused:

In order to determine by eye if fielder A gets to more balls than fielder B, you would have to watch every chance that both have. If you miss chances you could easily miss chances that could change your opinion one way or another. The only feasible option is to use statistics rather than using your eye to determine how solid of a fielder a player actually is. The same goes for hitting.

[luvdembravos]

In order to determine by eye if fielder A gets to more balls than fielder B, you would have to watch every chance that both have. If you miss chances you could easily miss chances that could change your opinion one way or another. The only feasible option is to use statistics rather than using your eye to determine how solid of a fielder a player actually is. The same goes for hitting.

Bobby Cox probably saw every KJ fielding play and AB ...

...so do you think Cox used his eyes or statistics to finally come to the conclusion that KJ was hurting the team and belonged on the bench?

[Dreamscape]

Bobby Cox doesn't understand Anderson is hurting the team yet. Is he really the one you want to go with?

And I haven't heard any claims KJ's defense had anything to do with the decision to bench him. Prado was hitting and KJ obviously wasn't.

[Wahoo]

Bobby Cox probably saw every KJ fielding play and AB ...

...so do you think Cox used his eyes or statistics to finally come to the conclusion that KJ was hurting the team and belonged on the bench?

As an impartial observer of this debate, may I just say that using Bobby Cox's opinion to support your argument in an intellectual baseball debate isn't the best way to strengthen your argument :D

[Murphys#1Fan]

Folks...I'm afraid KJ's days are over in Atlanta. You can dislike that fact all you want but if he's still with the organization after this year...the job is Prado's to lose out of spring training next year. That's assuming Prado is not packaged somewhere but the more likely guy to be packaged is KJ.

As far as Anderson is concerned...he's hitting at a pretty good clip right now. Not the power I was hoping for but lets face it...it beats anything else we can fill LF with and that includes Brandon Jones. Brandon is a reserve outfielder and that's it...nothing else...just as KJ has become.

Back to the thread...the Ryan Church deal is probably the last deal this team is going to make. No money left to bargain with and unless Anderson just falls on his face before the trade deadline...he's your left fielder through the end of this season. I just hope he's not in LF come 2010.

[Dreamscape]

How you can say Anderson would beat out Jones? There are very few outfielders in the game, especially corner outfielders, who couldn't post a better than .701 OPS through 67 games. How much more of Anderson do you need to see to realize he sucks horribly? The man can't fall onto his face much more than he already has.

Maybe Jones wouldn't be much better. We wouldn't know until he got a shot, would we? At least it continues the message that medicore play won't be accepted by this team.

[Murphys#1Fan]

How you can say Anderson would beat out Jones? There are very few outfielders in the game, especially corner outfielders, who couldn't post a better than .701 OPS through 67 games. How much more of Anderson do you need to see to realize he sucks horribly? The man can't fall onto his face much more than he already has.

Maybe Jones wouldn't be much better. We wouldn't know until he got a shot, would we? At least it continues the message that medicore play won't be accepted by this team.

I've seen enough of Jones to know that he's by no means a long term solution to left field. Anderson is not either but that long term answer will be addressed during the offseason. Having said that...you're likely not going to trade Anderson to any contending team given his salary and as long as he's putting up some "descent" numbers and I say that hesitantly...get used to seeing him in the 2nd half of the season unless he gets hurt. Even if he gets hurt...LF will go back to Matt Diaz anyway so Jones will likely be packaged.

[Dreamscape]

I don't want to get used to watching a horrible player in left field. I'm not sure why that's your big go-to.

You have judged a player in Jones based on 148 at-bats. I'm not going to bother looking at some of the best players in history and their first 148 AB, but that's all it takes to gauge a player?

Again, I'm not going to argue that Jones is a special player. All I can say is I think he could at least post a .701 OPS and probably do better than that. At the very least, he's young enough to give him a chance and see what happens. Might as well. The corpse of Garret Anderson simply ain't going to help this team win. Isn't that the bottom line?

[Murphys#1Fan]

I don't want to get used to watching a horrible player in left field. I'm not sure why that's your big go-to.

You have judged a player in Jones based on 148 at-bats. I'm not going to bother looking at some of the best players in history and their first 148 AB, but that's all it takes to gauge a player?

Again, I'm not going to argue that Jones is a special player. All I can say is I think he could at least post a .701 OPS and probably do better than that. At the very least, he's young enough to give him a chance and see what happens. Might as well. The corpse of Garret Anderson simply ain't going to help this team win. Isn't that the bottom line?

Brandon Jones would already be manning an outfield position if management had any confidence in him as the long term solution Dreamer. Simple as that. He'll get a September callup if not sooner due to an Anderson injury or trade and I don't forsee him putting up any better numbers than Anderson. But I'll give you this...he is the better glove man that's for sure.

[Dreamscape]

Why should I think Braves management knows what they are doing? The Braves are under .500 after all.

Again, nowhere in this thread or otherwise will you see me argue that Brandon Jones is a can't miss prospect. This is completely based on a comparison between him and Anderson. When you compare these two players, you are comparing the unknown and what we painfully know. I'd rather go with the unknown. How much worse can he be? Besides, if he sucks, there's Infante, Blanco, and yes, even KJ that can get shots in left.

Bottom line is if you are going to suck with the bat, you better at least field well. That would be Blanco and maybe Infante, though the latter hasn't sucked with the bat ever since coming to Atlanta.

[Murphys#1Fan]

Why should I think Braves management knows what they are doing? The Braves are under .500 after all.

Again, nowhere in this thread or otherwise will you see me argue that Brandon Jones is a can't miss prospect. This is completely based on a comparison between him and Anderson. When you compare these two players, you are comparing the unknown and what we painfully know. I'd rather go with the unknown. How much worse can he be? Besides, if he sucks, there's Infante, Blanco, and yes, even KJ that can get shots in left.

Bottom line is if you are going to suck with the bat, you better at least field well. That would be Blanco and maybe Infante, though the latter hasn't sucked with the bat ever since coming to Atlanta.


Perhaps that's where we differ Dream. I'm not ready to put Anderson in the same class as Francoeur and Johnson with the bat but you are. Now as far as range goes...I'd go with anyone you mentioned over Anderson.

[luvdembravos]

As an impartial observer of this debate, may I just say that using Bobby Cox's opinion to support your argument in an intellectual baseball debate isn't the best way to strengthen your argument :D

You've got a point there Wahoo:D

But it really wasn't an intellectual debate or else I would've used my Chino Cadahia card ;)

[barvos4evr]

GA is a slug out there in the field. He has to be in the bottom 4 in LF'ers in the NL UZR, +-.....etc You figure his bat into the mix and I wouldn't be the least surprised to find out that he was the WORST LF'ER in the league!!!!! Brandon Jones wouldn't be worse than that!!!

IMO, we oughta try and package some folks for Jermain Dye or Holliday( or similar) Bring up Schafer and move Mclouth to RF.

I think this lineup would be promising! ( especially with Schafer in the 8 spot!!)

Mclouth-RF
Prado-2b
Chip-3b
Dye/Holliday-LF
McCann-C
Escobar-SS
Kotchman-1b
Schafer-CF

Our outfield defense would be good. Not to mention that Schafer hitting 8th would take a ton of pressure off of him. His ability to take a walk would also aid in the disposition of pitchers AB's in that lineup!

Oh, and if by chance the rumored " Holliday,Cabrera and cashfor Escobar and prospects happens, I'd move Cabrera down to 7th and Kotchman to 6th, nothing else would change.

[Hobbes]

Our outfield defense would be good. Not to mention that Schafer hitting 8th would take a ton of pressure off of him. His ability to take a walk would also aid in the disposition of pitchers AB's in that lineup!
Schafer was hitting 8th most of the time while in Atlanta.

[RiknTN]

Why does my man Diaz never get any love here? He just continues to hit every chance he gets. He plays hard, and he's not a bad OF. Just seems like he get forgotten about or never gets any respect.

[Hobbes]

Why does my man Diaz never get any love here? He just continues to hit every chance he gets. He plays hard, and he's not a bad OF. Just seems like he get forgotten about or never gets any respect.
I think it's because last year when he got the chance to show what he could do as an everyday player, he didn't impress. He seems to perform better off the bench as a fill-in than with a set spot in the lineup.

[Chris_Moderato]

Why does my man Diaz never get any love here? He just continues to hit every chance he gets. He plays hard, and he's not a bad OF. Just seems like he get forgotten about or never gets any respect.

I always felt like I was the only one here that doesn't like Matt Diaz so much.

[jamminHANES]

Diaz is solid when used right. Bobby has used him and pretty much maxed out his capabilities.

[Murphys#1Fan]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr
Our outfield defense would be good. Not to mention that Schafer hitting 8th would take a ton of pressure off of him. His ability to take a walk would also aid in the disposition of pitchers AB's in that lineup!

Schafer was hitting 8th most of the time while in Atlanta.

Here's your sign. :p

[barvos4evr]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr
Our outfield defense would be good. Not to mention that Schafer hitting 8th would take a ton of pressure off of him. His ability to take a walk would also aid in the disposition of pitchers AB's in that lineup!



Here's your sign. :p



What does that mean?

[Lauren T.]

Here's your sign. (http://www.snopes.com/humor/jokes/heresign.asp)

[ChopTime]

I don't want to get used to watching a horrible player in left field. I'm not sure why that's your big go-to.

You have judged a player in Jones based on 148 at-bats. I'm not going to bother looking at some of the best players in history and their first 148 AB, but that's all it takes to gauge a player?

Again, I'm not going to argue that Jones is a special player. All I can say is I think he could at least post a .701 OPS and probably do better than that. At the very least, he's young enough to give him a chance and see what happens. Might as well. The corpse of Garret Anderson simply ain't going to help this team win. Isn't that the bottom line?



Why so hard on Anderson? It seems an odd time to be railing on him. Yeah, he sucked horribly early on, but I think just about anybody who has been watching the majority of the games can see he's come around lately. He's brought it up to over .280 and he's hitting for some power now. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it his RBI double that gave us the lead in game 1 of this mets series? I don't think anybody expected he was going to be good defensively, but given the trend he's been on with his hitting (steadily improving since the early season), I'd much rather have him out there right now than a guy like Brandon Jones who would probably be worse than Gregor Blanco at the plate.

[BarveFanHawaii]

Project GAnderson has proven to be more effective of late, but it still doesn't change the fact that he is a horrible defender an has yet to make a real everyday difference in the lineup.

I, on the other hand, have been very patient with him. I can see riding out the year with him since he's started to hit a smidgen...but it doesn't mean we still can't upgrade over him and become better because of it. If GAnderson goes cold one more time, it'd be time to cut the bait.

On the topic of Brandon Jones. I'm not in favor of switching from GAnderson to him. It's like the theory of a pain transfer. Your right hand is broken and causing you an immense amount of pain, so you turn around and break your left foot so you forget about the pain in your hand. Same difference...your hand is still broken, but now you've got a broken foot too. No problems were solved.

I'm a bit different in stance on this topic, but if we make a change over GAnderson, I want it to be via trade for a legitimate bat (even if it would be a Holliday, and I'm VERY against that) because our internal options won't make a significant enough difference by season's end.

[Andy G.]

Anderson started the season on the DL and didn't take a rehab assignment. He was especially awful the first two weeks back. Since May 13th, though, his OPS is .788. That's not all that good or anything, but it's a lot better than .727.

I'm just putting that out there for the sake of the argument. I hate watching him on defense just like everybody else.

[Dreamscape]

Why so hard on Anderson? It seems an odd time to be railing on him. Yeah, he sucked horribly early on, but I think just about anybody who has been watching the majority of the games can see he's come around lately. He's brought it up to over .280 and he's hitting for some power now. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it his RBI double that gave us the lead in game 1 of this mets series? I don't think anybody expected he was going to be good defensively, but given the trend he's been on with his hitting (steadily improving since the early season), I'd much rather have him out there right now than a guy like Brandon Jones who would probably be worse than Gregor Blanco at the plate.
Well, he's certainly hit better since my comments. I don't think much of batting average so I don't tend to look at it. Hopefully, he continues, but I still consider him a vastly unsatisfying player. He's part of the problem that, for an NL team, the Braves get very little in terms of league average for LF and 1B. It really negates the pluses they get from 3B, SS, and C. If Anderson can at least perform toward a league average, I guess you can accept that.

He's actually shown more hop in his step since the break. Almost like someone lit a firecracker under his butt or something.

And BFH...this would be more like breaking your right hand again.

[BarveFanHawaii]

And BFH...this would be more like breaking your right hand again.

True. But the concept is still the same...it still doesn't help you cope with the pain. :p