Gamethread: Braves @ Cubs, July 7, 2009 (83/162) WIN

[BigWorm]

I know this is the weakest game thread of the year. But I wanted to get the ball rolling here, so wallah.

In the AJC today Bradley suggests that Bobby Cox has lost faith in Francoeur. But in an article I read yesterday, he was quoted as saying that he'd try to get the chosen one back in the lineup today. It'll be interesting to see if he's in there or not today.

Vasquez (5-7 3.05 ERA)
vs.
Zambrano (4-3 3.50 ERA)

Dempster was originally supposed to start tonight against the Braves, but has since been put on the 15 day DL with a big right toe strain.

Zambrano will be pitching on three days rest.

The Cubs have won 8 out of their last 9 home games.

Garret Anderson smells like poop.

[bravos4evr]

I think we win this one as we are due to win the middle game and lose the next one 2-1....

[BigWorm]

No Chipper today.

McLouth
Prado
Poo Poo (GA)
McCann
Escobar
Francoeur
Kotchman
Conrad
Vasquez

[-Dr. Brave-]

Garret Anderson smells like poop.

He might run like poop (okay, maybe not that fast), but do we know he smells like poop??

Regardless, Anderson is apparently less poopy than Frenchy, as he has been getting starts instead of Francoeur against lefties. The writing is on the wall, but apparently Jeff is dyslexic.

[BigWorm]

He might run like poop (okay, maybe not that fast), but do we know he smells like poop??

Regardless, Anderson is apparently less poopy than Frenchy, as he has been getting starts instead of Francoeur against lefties. The writing is on the wall, but apparently Jeff is dyslexic.

My guess is that a walking terd would indeed smell poopy.

I'm baiting poo poo for a big game.

[chicagobrave]

I hope that this is a scheduled day off for Chipper. I am going to the game tommorrow and was looking forward to seeing him play in person.

[Hobbes]

And the Braves get an early run.

[JanShan12]

WGN announcers say Chipper is day-to-day with a strained groin.

[Hobbes]

Conrad just missed a homer and ends up with a triple.

[Hobbes]

McCann with another RBI to make it 2-1 Braves.

[Hobbes]

I'm not convinced Jeff Francoeur will ever be a major-league caliber player again (if he ever was).

[Wahoo]

I'm not convinced Jeff Francoeur will ever be a major-league caliber player again (if he ever was).

Yeah, it really makes you wonder. Not that he was ever "good" but I don't recall an everyday player being this bad two years in a row.

[Lauren T.]

WGN announcers say Chipper is day-to-day with a strained groin.
Braves out of town... Chipper strains his groin while "running" last night, per SS announcers. Riiiiight. ;)

Dumpster, on the other hand, broke his toe while jumping the dugout railing. Now that's an injury I can believe!

[wordslayer©]

Okay,,,since Francoeur is out of the lineup now some, and my hate for him has lessened a little, let me say something on his behalf.

It would be foolish to trade him. Not because he doesn't suck, but because it's silly to give up on him when he is worth nothing, because there is still a chance that he could be worth something.

Some positives on Francoeur:

*There is a chance that the rookie of the year this year will be older than Francoeur is. In the big picture of things, he is still a young ball player.

*He does, *occasionally*, show some signs of trying to decrease his strike outs and improve his base on balls.

*He was able to hit major league pitching at a very young age. You just can't throw away this fact.

*He should not be as bad as he is now. I hate him probably more so than anyone does, but the fact is, he projects to be, at least, average ball player, with a shot at being a better than average one.

*It would be bad to trade him off when his value is absolutely zilch. There is no risk in just taking him out of the lineup, sending him down and watching him for a while.

*IF the red sox showed some interest in him, then that tells you there could be some promise there. The Red Sox are one of the smartest organizations out there.

I would never have hated Francoeur as much as I did, IF Bobby and the management had taken his a$$ out of the lineup. This has been obvious for quite some time, but for whatever reason, they didn't do it.

He's a horrible ball player right now, get him out of the lineup. Quit letting him kill you on a daily basis. Do what smart organizations do...send him down...get him some help......special attention......and give him some time again to season.

But then again, I may just be getting softer in my old age.

[BraveFan]

Okay,,,since Francoeur is out of the lineup now some, and my hate for him has lessened a little, let me say something on his behalf.

It would be foolish to trade him. Not because he doesn't suck, but because it's silly to give up on him when he is worth nothing, because there is still a chance that he could be worth something.

Some positives on Francoeur:

*There is a chance that the rookie of the year this year will be older than Francoeur is. In the big picture of things, he is still a young ball player.

*He does, *occasionally*, show some signs of trying to decrease his strike outs and improve his base on balls.

*He was able to hit major league pitching at a very young age. You just can't throw away this fact.

*He should not be as bad as he is now. I hate him probably more so than anyone does, but the fact is, he projects to be, at least, average ball player, with a shot at being a better than average one.

*It would be bad to trade him off when his value is absolutely zilch. There is no risk in just taking him out of the lineup, sending him down and watching him for a while.

*IF the red sox showed some interest in him, then that tells you there could be some promise there. The Red Sox are one of the smartest organizations out there.

I would never have hated Francoeur as much as I did, IF Bobby and the management had taken his a$$ out of the lineup. This has been obvious for quite some time, but for whatever reason, they didn't do it.

He's a horrible ball player right now, get him out of the lineup. Quit letting him kill you on a daily basis. Do what smart organizations do...send him down...get him some help......special attention......and give him some time again to season.

But then again, I may just be getting softer in my old age.

Its time to just part ways, the way in which Francoeur can gain trade value is to play better but that means he has to play and the Braves can no longer afford to throw him out there and play.

[sdp]

Dear God, Javy Vazquez is good.

[argentina brave]

Dear God, Javy Vazquez is good.

trading him = insanity

[Andy G.]

The Braves have only lost two games when leading after the seventh inning. We're up 2-1 now with Gonzo pitching the eighth. The Cubs fans are booing him every time he goes into his rock. I like the rock. Anyway, he's gotten the first two out and just threw a first pitch strike. We gotta win this one.

Now he's ahead 0-2. Come on Gonzo!

[Hobbes]

The Braves have only lost two games when leading after the seventh inning. We're up 2-1 now with Gonzo pitching the eighth. The Cubs fans are booing him every time he goes into his rock. I like the rock. Anyway, he's gotten the first two out and just threw a first pitch strike. We gotta win this one.

Now he's ahead 0-2. Come on Gonzo!

WGN announcers are really ragging on his rocking also.

[Andy G.]

There's a two out double. Lee's hitting. Don't let him beat you, Gonzo.

[Andy G.]

Sweet. Lee pops out to end the inning.

[sdp]

WGN announcers are really ragging on his rocking also.

lol, good. I like to see Brenley and Kasper's feathers ruffled.

[Hobbes]

Bringing in Diaz to sac bunt. Wonderful decision there.

[BraveFan]

Bringing in Diaz to sac bunt. Wonderful decision there.

def should have changed to blanco who is the best bunter on the team.

[sdp]

Bringing in Diaz to sac bunt. Wonderful decision there.
My goodness. I am shaking my head. Unreal management right there.

[Hobbes]

Alright Soriano...shut 'em down.

[Hobbes]

Braves win!

[argentina brave]

Braves win!

hell yeah! let's beat this cursed team tomorrow and win the series. nice to see the reds licked their wounds and won tonight. 4 back.

[Andy G.]

Nice win. Let's take the series tomorrow. It was kinda neat to see Soriano just now when he and McCann patted each other on the back, then Soriano tapped him on the shoulder and gave him a proper hug. He even had a smile on his face...sort of.

[Hobbes]

Nice to see Javy get the win even though he still got skimpy run support.

[Chris_Moderato]

Nice to see the optimists posting tonight. Y'all have been missing the last three games. What gives?

[wordslayer©]

go braves

[Andy G.]

Nice to see the optimists posting tonight. Y'all have been missing the last three games. What gives?
Yeah, guys, where ya been?

[KB 34]

trading him = insanity
I haven't understood the interest in trading him that's been around since early this season. He's been the Braves #1 starting pitcher this season and a real anchor. Take him out of the starting rotation and I suspect there would be some problems as the rotation wouldn't be as good and the bullpen would suddenly need to cover a lot more innings. In other words Moylan, O'Flaherty, and Gonzalez would have to start warming up along with the Vazquez replacement for convenience purposes with Diaz and Escobar getting some emergency catcher experience in out of necessity. The one reason I could understand for wanting to deal him is money issues with resigning him but I don't see that coming up. The argument I have seen is the offense is so bad his value is needed to fix it. Chipper to LF, McCann to 1B, KJ to LF, Escobar to LF, etc. I've never liked the idea of creating huge problems to solve simple problems and won't change now. McLouth is a prime example of how the outfield and offense issues can be solved without creating a huge hole, the ace of the starting rotation.

[argentina brave]

Nice to see the optimists posting tonight. Y'all have been missing the last three games. What gives?

been watching, just didn't want to get in the way of all the genius bobby naysayers :p

[Lauren T.]

I'm really liking Brooks Conrad. :)

[Hobbes]

I'm really liking Brooks Conrad. :)
Seems like a gritty player.

[Chris_Moderato]

been watching, just didn't want to get in the way of all the genius bobby naysayers :p

Well, it'd be nice to see some balance. It would probably really help the site if our gamethreads in games we're winning weren't 100% "We're back, baby!" and the threads when we're losing weren't 100% "This team sucks."

Granted, it's impossible to dictate thread posting, but the lack of diversity in the game threads, especially when those diverse voices are out there and members of the community, is troubling.

[IkeWagner]

Seems like a gritty player.

Which fits nicely with the old school name.

I just now looked him up - dude has serious power, and knows how to walk alittle. If he keeps playing well, he maybe could be in the running for a reserve spot next year.

[quick]

The Braves have only lost two games when leading after the seventh inning. We're up 2-1 now with Gonzo pitching the eighth. The Cubs fans are booing him every time he goes into his rock. I like the rock. Anyway, he's gotten the first two out and just threw a first pitch strike. We gotta win this one.

Now he's ahead 0-2. Come on Gonzo!

I think Mike should abandon his wind-up completely and pitch from the stretch. He seems to get better results with the simpler motion. Does anyone have access to any stats that seem to confirm this?

[Murphys#1Fan]

Which fits nicely with the old school name.

I just now looked him up - dude has serious power, and knows how to walk alittle. If he keeps playing well, he maybe could be in the running for a reserve spot next year.


Forget the reserve spot next year. Let's ride him for as long as this lasts. I'd say lets keep him at 2b and move Prado to RF. No reason why Diaz and Anderson can't platoon in LF. As far as Frenchy goes...well...you know.

[IkeWagner]

Okay,,,since Francoeur is out of the lineup now some, and my hate for him has lessened a little, let me say something on his behalf.

It would be foolish to trade him. Not because he doesn't suck, but because it's silly to give up on him when he is worth nothing, because there is still a chance that he could be worth something.

Some positives on Francoeur:

*There is a chance that the rookie of the year this year will be older than Francoeur is. In the big picture of things, he is still a young ball player.

*He does, *occasionally*, show some signs of trying to decrease his strike outs and improve his base on balls.

*He was able to hit major league pitching at a very young age. You just can't throw away this fact.

*He should not be as bad as he is now. I hate him probably more so than anyone does, but the fact is, he projects to be, at least, average ball player, with a shot at being a better than average one.

*It would be bad to trade him off when his value is absolutely zilch. There is no risk in just taking him out of the lineup, sending him down and watching him for a while.

*IF the red sox showed some interest in him, then that tells you there could be some promise there. The Red Sox are one of the smartest organizations out there.

I would never have hated Francoeur as much as I did, IF Bobby and the management had taken his a$$ out of the lineup. This has been obvious for quite some time, but for whatever reason, they didn't do it.

He's a horrible ball player right now, get him out of the lineup. Quit letting him kill you on a daily basis. Do what smart organizations do...send him down...get him some help......special attention......and give him some time again to season.

But then again, I may just be getting softer in my old age.

Trouble is, even if he were to play well in the minors, I'm not sure that would improve his trade value all that much, considering he is completely mystified by major league pitching. I just don't see how him raking in the minors could mitigate his struggles in the big leagues. He played very well in his short minor league stint last year, but there was zero carryover upon his return to Atlanta. It seems he has a threshold - he can hit minor leaguers, but the jump up to the show is just too much for him. It seems to me the only way to raise his value substantially would to be play him in the bigs and hope he turns things around. And we all know that that is ill-advised.

What I think will happen is this. He will not be traded, for the simple reason that no one "really" "wants" him. Some teams may be willing to take him on as a project (because of the things Slayer mentions), but no-one will be willing to part with a decent to above-average prospect to acquire him (because in baseball it's about what you've done lately, and he has been bad for 2 straight years). So, from the Braves' perspective, what's the point of trading him? There is none, really. It would just be crap for a no-name, in the process losing an outfielder with a hose who is at least "accustomed" to the bigs and has an established place in the clubhouse, and having to go out and get someone who can play right field in the big leagues. It's just much easier to just sit him, and then release him after this season.

[Hillbilly]

I think Mike should abandon his wind-up completely and pitch from the stretch. He seems to get better results with the simpler motion. Does anyone have access to any stats that seem to confirm this?


I've been thinking the same thing, so I looked it up.

Split ------ G-- PA -- AB-- R -- H -- 2B -- 3B -- HR -- BB --SO-- SO/BB -- BA -- OBP -- SLG --- OPS
Men On -- 28 -- 71 -- 51--13 -- 9 -- 2 ---- 0 --- 1 ---12 --- 17 -- 1.42 -- .176 -- .358 -- .275 ---.633
None On-- 41 --102 --96-- 3 -- 24 -- 9 ---- 0 --- 3 --- 5 --- 37 -- 7.40 -- .250 -- .294 -- .438 -- .732


Average and slugging percentage are lower from the stretch, but walks and OBP are higher.

[quick]

I've been thinking the same thing, so I looked it up.

Split ------ G-- PA -- AB-- R -- H -- 2B -- 3B -- HR -- BB --SO-- SO/BB -- BA -- OBP -- SLG --- OPS
Men On -- 28 -- 71 -- 51--13 -- 9 -- 2 ---- 0 --- 1 ---12 --- 17 -- 1.42 -- .176 -- .358 -- .275 ---.633
None On-- 41 --102 --96-- 3 -- 24 -- 9 ---- 0 --- 3 --- 5 --- 37 -- 7.40 -- .250 -- .294 -- .438 -- .732


Average and slugging percentage are lower from the stretch, but walks and OBP are higher.


Interesting. His OPS is 100 points better from the stretch, though. That might should be the determining factor.

[argentina brave]

Well, it'd be nice to see some balance. It would probably really help the site if our gamethreads in games we're winning weren't 100% "We're back, baby!" and the threads when we're losing weren't 100% "This team sucks."

Granted, it's impossible to dictate thread posting, but the lack of diversity in the game threads, especially when those diverse voices are out there and members of the community, is troubling.

i was kidding, although i should know better that sarcasm doesn't equate well over cyberspace.

your're right though.....it would be nice to have more balance, although i don't understand how the 'we're back baby' comments could/would chafe anyone when we're winning....we are all braves fans (presumably). sure, it's 'rah rah', but that's what sports is all about for me (even as i understand/grasp finer details that are bandied about around here by the well-versed statheads....many of whom believing that the game has passed our braintrust by).

in the end, i'll try to post more of my 'ya gotta believe' stuff when we're getting 1-hit by some no-name reds 5 starter :D .... sometimes blind enthusiasm can be mistaken as ignorance/stupidity...and i think that is an error.

[-Dr. Brave-]

Some positives on Francoeur:

*It would be bad to trade him off when his value is absolutely zilch. There is no risk in just taking him out of the lineup, sending him down and watching him for a while.


No risk, except that Francoeur still has delusions of grandeur and, I honestly believe, still resents the fact that he was sent down the last time. I'd rather have Kelly Johnson out there than Francoeur.

Replacement-level players are a dime a dozen. We should bank his money for something that will help us next year.

Jeff Francoeur jerseys are now on clearance. We just need to sell 19,000 more to pay his salary this year.
http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2270774&cp=1503844.1840207

[IkeWagner]

What I think will happen is this. He will not be traded, for the simple reason that no one "really" "wants" him. Some teams may be willing to take him on as a project (because of the things Slayer mentions), but no-one will be willing to part with a decent to above-average prospect to acquire him (because in baseball it's about what you've done lately, and he has been bad for 2 straight years). So, from the Braves' perspective, what's the point of trading him? There is none, really. It would just be crap for a no-name, in the process losing an outfielder with a hose who is at least "accustomed" to the bigs and has an established place in the clubhouse, and having to go out and get someone who can play right field in the big leagues. It's just much easier to just sit him, and then release him after this season.

I'm clearly out of touch.

[-Dr. Brave-]

Not really. Your basic premise that nobody really wants Francoeur is still valid... it was the only way the Mets could get rid of Church and get something for him.

[Dreamscape]

Omar's comments of Francoeur said it all. They wanted a guy who could stay in the lineup. Be careful what you wish for, Omar.