The ChopNation Political Discussion Thread (keep it civil please)

[Hobbes]

Use this thread for all political discussions. Please keep all such talk in here so as not to clutter up the rest of the forum with politics.

And as always, keep the tone respectful and civil.

[Middle Man]

Any of you Virginians vote in the primary today? What a difference an election makes. In November, I couldn't get close enough to the polling place to park, even illegally. This morning, I was literally the only person in sight other than the bored poll workers.

[Dreamscape]

I will be voting shortly.

I think.

If I can make myself move.

[Middle Man]

I will be voting shortly.

I think.

If I can make myself move.

I bet if you call the local TM for Gov office, they'll send a taxi out for you. Just don't vote for him. ;)

[bravos4evr]

Man alive, last tuesday the stuoid city I live in re-elected the same dadburn drunken mayor AGAIN!! She has weaseled out of 3 DUI's that I know of, had DHS at her house to see about her kids cuz she was drunk.... none of this stuff has made it in the papers tho..... ARGH!!!!

She also only seems to care about beutification projects that raise property values for the folks who live on the waterfront.. AND she's a democrat!!!!

[Chris_Moderato]

Any of you Virginians vote in the primary today? What a difference an election makes. In November, I couldn't get close enough to the polling place to park, even illegally. This morning, I was literally the only person in sight other than the bored poll workers.

The local midday show on our NPR station had people calling in talking about how few people were out voting in the primary.

I didn't vote. I'm hoping it's either Moran or Deeds, personally, because I can't stand Terry Macauliffe's face.

[bravos4evr]

He hates yer face too!

[luvdembravos]

It doesn't matter to me because I'll be voting for Bob McDonnell, despite his dumb campaign ads.

[Middle Man]

McDonnell is gonna be tough to beat. The dems will try to paint him as an extremist (of course) and point out that he's buddies with Pat Robertson. But I think he comes across as a pretty likeable (although boring) guy to the average voter. He's also very smart and disciplined and knows the issues as well as anyone.

I think moderate-type voters are probably gonna have a hard time making a choice if the dems pick either Moran or McAuliffe today. If Deeds wins the dem nomination, he'll lay claim to the moderates and independents. If McAuliffe wins the nomination, brace yourselves for an unprecedented slew of Washington DC-style advertising.

[Dreamscape]

It honestly doesn't matter to me, either. None of them are Mark Warner.

And Bob McDonnell's ad makes me laugh. "I supported a bipartisan approach to dealing with online sexual predators." Really, a bipartisan approach, huh? As opposed to the party that is pro-online sexual predators? Either way, I haven't seen a candidate for next fall that isn't a joke. Maybe they will show something after the primary.

[bravos4evr]

Had a fun discussion with a greeny freak today ( and I don't mean uppers!). He was babbling on about things going extinct and pointed out that the honeybee crisis in America would lead to starvation.
I countered that, since the European Honeybee is a feral species, it seems that he would be in favor of their elimination so as to return the job of pollination to the native species in our ecosystem.

He just sat there fuming until he called me " a fascist" so I popped him in the mouth.

not really!

[KB 34]

A couple days ago I ran across an article that explained how in many situations driving an SUV is a lot environmentally friendly than using public transportation. Stories like that just make me laugh as so many people talk about being green but in the end nothing gets done. If only nuclear and fusion power got the interest they deserve........

[Chris_Moderato]

Looks like the early numbers are favoring the more conservative choice for the Democrats, Creigh Deeds. I was out in Smithfield today, and they had his signs citing the Washington Post endorsement all over the place.

Of course, if it's Deeds, we'll have a rematch of the 2005 Commonwealth's Attorney race, which Bob McDonnell won by 323 votes. Hmm...might have to vote, much as I hate the idea.

[Dreamscape]

I voted. First primary I voted in.

[luvdembravos]

I can live with Deeds more so than McAuliffe or Moran. I thought the primary would've been a little closer but Deed basically smoked his opponents. The fact that Deeds captured a lot of support in Northern Virginia has to be a big concern to McDonnell.

[Chris_Moderato]

I can live with Deeds more so than McAuliffe or Moran. I thought it be a little closer but Deed basically smoked the others.

He really did. I was pretty surprised. It was a tight race until recently. It ought to be a pretty good race.

By the way, did anyone else know that Creigh Deeds owns a mule named Harry S Truman? If he wins, I demand he ride that mule into Richmond.

[luvdembravos]

By the way, did anyone else know that Creigh Deeds owns a mule named Harry S Truman? If he wins, I demand he ride that mule into Richmond.


You may be on to something... transportation using less energy.

[Middle Man]

Yeah, surprising margin of victory for Deeds. No surprise that he did well outside the major urban areas, but pretty surprising that he also kicked butt in places like Arlington, Fairfax County (and City), Falls Church and Richmond. Terry Mcauliffe just wasted a ton of money and annoyed the hell out of a ton of people with repeated robocalling - all for nothing.

I'd say Deeds ought to be considered a slight favorite right now, despite the fact that McDonnell beat him 4 years ago for AG. The AGs race may turn out to be the most interesting this time. Two northern Virginians with very different personalities and political philosophies.

[BraveFan]

When it comes to the VA primary I'm just glad the used car salesman lost.

[The Rap]

I am happy Mcaulife lost because his act is geting so tired. BTX, Bravesfan I think it is very fitting that you have Palin as your avatar. Appropriate touch!

[Chris_Moderato]

So...Iran. Madness. It's really, really good to see the people striking back.

God, I hope this topples those f-ing Mullahs.

[Dreamscape]

One of the things that bugged me so much when Bush came up with the whole axis of evil garbage was how the Iranian people had something to rally them behind. They are a far more modern society than people understand and now, this cowboy basically says they are evil. Yeah, sure, the leadership in Iran is messed up, but the people within it are very western. They watch our movies and have death metal and even watch the Daily Show.

[Middle Man]

One of the things that bugged me so much when Bush came up with the whole axis of evil garbage was how the Iranian people had something to rally them behind. They are a far more modern society than people understand and now, this cowboy basically says they are evil. Yeah, sure, the leadership in Iran is messed up, but the people within it are very western. They watch our movies and have death metal and even watch the Daily Show.

Amen. A country's leadership and its people are not one and the same. We should take every opportunity to connect with the people of a country no matter how despicable its leadership is. I cringe every time there's some sort of incident with Iran (or other disliked nation) and certain people start in with the "why don't we just nuke the whole country, blah, blah, blah..."

So where did all the westernized Iranians go when the Ayatollah took over? Well, I suppose many are still there - and their kids are probably out protesting.

http://funnytogo.com/pictures/iran70s/Iran-from-1970s5.jpg

[bravos4evr]

Yet some of you seem to find it perfectly understandable when other countries hate Americans because of the actions of their leadership....

[Middle Man]

Yet some of you seem to find it perfectly understandable when other countries hate Americans because of the actions of their leadership....

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but I think there is a difference between understandable and acceptable. I also think that Americans or any other citizens of a nation absolutely deserve some of the blame for the misdeeds of its leaders if they actually get to choose the leaders.

[bravos4evr]

ahhh but not everybody chose that leader I feel no responsiblity for Obamas stupidity. Or his attempt to nationalize everything and make us his own little USSR.

Screw the Iranians, if they hate this so much then they need to pci kup arms and throw da bums out. But they won't cuz they are ruled by a religion of hatred and fear.

[Chris_Moderato]

Very civil.

[Dreamscape]

Cool, Obama is making us the USSR. Rocky doesn't have to go to Russia to fight a steroid-infected dude who will break him. Efficiency, people!

[The Rap]

There are a ton of Iranians who live here in NYC and the suburbs and they are good people (the girls are hot as hell btw). What happened is that a bunch of religious lunatics took over the country and it was possible because the Shah was a dictator propped up by the USA. There are two ways to view him a) A brutal dictator who ruled with an iron fist and b) a benevolent ruler who took the country from the Dark Ages into the 20th century. He was both but the key question was the minimal role religion played and the Shah made certain it was minimal as he had banished Ayatollah Khomeini from the country. Truth is the world would have been better off if he didn't do that but just put the guy in front of a firing squad. He was a fanatic with a bitter heart who believed in the perverted Islamic view we see today among the fanatics like the Wahabee sect dominating Saudi Arabia. The lunatics took over the country and the Shah ran for his life and those of you old enough might remember how no country, including his staunchest allies, would accept him. For shame because we and others propped him up and then left him hanging in the wind like that.

The best example of Khomeini's fanatical lunacy was during the Iran-Iraq war which lasted for years and in which millions died. Khomeini actually had the children of Iran from age 5 to 10 be used to clear minefields set up by the Iraqis.

But a reign of terror was in effect as a modernized country which was basically secular was now ruled by strict and fantical Islamic rule. Khomeini hated the West and saw the USA as Satan. If you rememebr when they grabbed our hostages and held on to them (the most damaging act that caused Americans to turn against President Jimmy Carter) the "student" leader which can clearly be seen in photos was the lowlife who is President today, Ahmandinajad (sp?).

When Khomeini croaked I am sure many of you remember the massive funeral in Teheran where the fanatics literally tore apart their leaders corpse. They hold power to this day. Anyone who thinks these demonstrations can overthrow the government is smoking something great. The only benefit of the demonstrations is if they go on for a long time and to the point where the military decides to seize power.

Keep in mind that until that time there is nothing that can be done and the country goes on like the two bit joke the fanatics have turned it into.Everytime I hear the top cleric referred to as The Supreme Leader I can't help but think of the Rocky and Bulwinkle show.

Finally, Barack is dealing with this in a very knowledgeable and sophisticated manner. While the oppositin is criticizing him for not being strong or adamant enough he knows that all he has to do is come out on the side of the people there and then we would become the issue as Satan is interfering in their affairs.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

ahhh but not everybody chose that leader I feel no responsiblity for Obamas stupidity. Or his attempt to nationalize everything and make us his own little USSR.

Screw the Iranians, if they hate this so much then they need to pci kup arms and throw da bums out. But they won't cuz they are ruled by a religion of hatred and fear.


What makes you think Obama would want you to be part of whatever he's up to, Nick? Why weren't you this sore when Dubya was throwing around billions like M & M's?
I also seem to recall you mentioning going into the military. Now's your chance to get in, go to Iran and let them know exactly where you stand. They need your idealized style of leadership.

;) :cool:

[bravos4evr]

He can fight Bonds instead! ( everybody knows that Dolph Lundgren was Bonds connection anyway!)

[bravos4evr]

Will somebody please remind freddy that i was never a Bush apologist when it came to spending? Please , somebody! I have only said this like a bajillion times!

[bravos4evr]

They won't let me back in freddy I already tried. Bad knees and too old.

I would love to see the Iranian people overthrow their govt. But it won't happen because the majority of their people support the Ayatollah and he is the one who really calls the shots on whom gets to be President anyway.

[The Rap]

Interesting but how do you know that most of them support the Ayatollah when this is a dictatorship ruled by a religious leader? BTW, calling Barack stupid is weird when you were a supporter of the dumbest guy ever who was POTUS in Bush.

[bravos4evr]

Number one, I wasn't a Bush supporter Rap!!!!!!!!( for like the bajillion times a bajilionist time!!!) number two, whomever wa there before has gotst nuttin to do wit who be der now! Number three, when the Iranians overthrew the Shah and went from a "monarchist dictatorship" into a dictatorship controlled by the clerics ( and their ruler the Ayatollah) the masses were all behind it! Now, because the picture bnox tells you so, you assume that it's the majority whom are in defiance... I think not, I am of the opinion that the masses support whatever the Ayatollah says, and it is a minority opinion that is defiant. Not that it's bad thing, I am all for defiance in the face of madness, however, to change a people you must change the majority thought, that isn't gonna happen...... Not for another 25 years or so i reckon.

[Chris_Moderato]

There may be something to that (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/15/iran-election-polling), bravos.

[The Rap]

Guys my point is rather simple; when you are living in a country ruled by fanatics and fear then polls mean nothing because the person being asked questions probably won't tell you what he/she really feels. Plus,so many factors come into play. Did the people support Khomein when he took power? Probably but was that out of pure support for that maniac or just boosted by their hatred for the Shah?

[The Rap]

In addition, we shouldn't make more of the protests than what they really are; people protesting the results of an election. They are not making a revolution nor are they trying to overthrow the system. All you need to know is that for anyone tor un for Presdient in that country he must first be approved by the Ayatolla. That tells you everything. Ahmadinajad is like a robot when it comes to the clerics, doing their bidding without even a question. But, Mousavi might follow what they say and the only difference is that he might question decisions that come from above.

[BraveFan]

Obama is showing how weak he really is during the Iranian election issue. He has said nothing to defend these people, its obvious that the election was rigged. Its naive for anyone especially a world leader to actually believe that there was going to be a fair election in the first place, to not know that this was going to be rigged shows that Obama knows nothing.

Obama doesn't want to meddle with Iran's election but has no problem trying to tell Israel what to do.

Nothing about this administration tells me they care about fighting for democracy its all about reward campaign contributors and boosting Obama's power.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

So how is it different than the last administration, Lavell? Bush did a lot of "speechificatin'" about building democracies but we know the only real interest was in getting a toehold in that area of the world. Who are we to go into a nation and tell them they should forget their culture and do things our way? If there is so much desire in Iran or Iraq to be democratic, why haven't they stood up and fought for it? Tell me exactly how Obama or any other nation's leader can get involved in the election procedures of another nation without there being obvious and probably correct, shouts of fixing those elections. I don't understand the total lack of scope I see from you. You were a major Bush ballpolisher regardless of his screw-ups and you are terrified that Obama will make us all socialists but you expect the leader of the USA to somehow get involved with controlling election results halfway around the globe?! You don't want him calling the shots here but you want him to interfere in another nation's elections. This is beyond fatuous.

[BraveFan]

The lefties always argued that Muslim nations couldn't have and didn't want democracy, now that they are being proven wrong in Iran it would be nice to see the left admit that Bush was correct when he said that Muslims could handle and deserve democracy. They may not end up with a democracy like system in Iran but they sure seem to want one. The Iraq war while costly in both lives and $$ sent a message to the rest of the Middle East, now its time for Obama to standup with the Iranian people and tell them that America is on their side.

[The Rap]

Lavelle it is time for you to use your head. All those on the right who are criticizing Obama because they want him to speak up on the side of the oppositin and protestors. The minute Obama would do that the issue would be us. The Ayatollah and Ahmandinajad are salivating at the thought of Obama speaking up. How do you think the revolution in '79 started? With accusations that the Shah was nothing more than a puppet of the USA. So Barack speaking up would backfire in a second.

[BraveFan]

So how is it different than the last administration, Lavell? Bush did a lot of "speechificatin'" about building democracies but we know the only real interest was in getting a toehold in that area of the world. Who are we to go into a nation and tell them they should forget their culture and do things our way? If there is so much desire in Iran or Iraq to be democratic, why haven't they stood up and fought for it? Tell me exactly how Obama or any other nation's leader can get involved in the election procedures of another nation without there being obvious and probably correct, shouts of fixing those elections. I don't understand the total lack of scope I see from you. You were a major Bush ballpolisher regardless of his screw-ups and you are terrified that Obama will make us all socialists but you expect the leader of the USA to somehow get involved with controlling election results halfway around the globe?! You don't want him calling the shots here but you want him to interfere in another nation's elections. This is beyond fatuous.


Iraqis voted at higher rates than Americans and now we are seeing Iranians fight for Democracy. When you have been supressed for hundreds of years you can't fight for democracy over night you need military help in some situations and that is what the US provided the Iraqis against Saddam. The current situation in Iran is proving you argument that people in the middle east haven't stood up to fight to be wrong.

I know Obama can't do anything to change election results and am not asking for him to do so, that would be unrealistic. I'm askiing him to support the Iranians as they fight for democracy and their human rights.

[The Rap]

Do you know that anyone running for top office in Iran has to be approved by the Ayatollah? The people aren't protesting because they want democracy. They are protesting because they believe they had a rigged election and nothing more.

[The Rap]

Obama was inyterviewed a day or so ago and he said that anyone who eould expect a major shift in policy based on who was elected Prez woulkd be in for a surprise because there isnlt that much difference between the two.

[BraveFan]

Obama was inyterviewed a day or so ago and he said that anyone who eould expect a major shift in policy based on who was elected Prez woulkd be in for a surprise because there isnlt that much difference between the two.

That is true but doesn't change the fact that Iran had a rigged election and that Obama fails to speak up for the Iranians and for the ideals of America. He is to busy worried about telling Israel what to do. This guy has no leadership capability, it took him 3 days to respond.

[BraveFan]

Do you know that anyone running for top office in Iran has to be approved by the Ayatollah? The people aren't protesting because they want democracy. They are protesting because they believe they had a rigged election and nothing more.

nobody is expecting Iran or any other Muslim nations to have American style democracy but having real elections are a major part of democracy and I'm sure the Iranians would much rather have democracy than what they have with thugs running the country.

[jlcct]

To say the man has no leadership qualities is so damned ignorant. Come on man. Use your head. Every political post doesn't have to be so freakin...... well ignorant. I like to read the political thoughts of others here because most of the thoughts posted on the braves threads are fairly intellectual. I consider this place the gold standard when it comes to Braves talk. It's too bad we can't have a more well rounded grasp on other things as well.
Sorry for complaining but it's hard to ignore some of these posts when they are so consistantley biased. What a downer.

[Dreamscape]

Saying three days is too long is on par in my mind to the dumb liberals who were blabbering about Bush reading My Pet Goat (was that it?) on 9/11 instead of jumping to action. Try as you might, what is there for Obama to really do about Iran? The people of Iran must change the system and the last time protests were this big, that's exactly what they did.

You really can't talk up the United States being the world's policeman and then complain about it or vice versa. Obama is in a tough place. He is trying to get Iran to come to the table and you don't do that by talking about how they are thugs, fixing election results. Empty words of support do nothing. George H.W. Bush showed that after the Persian Gulf War when he talked up Iraqis rising up against Saddam and we would support them. Symbolically, that is. They got slaughtered. There is no perfect way of dealing with Iran and I think the "Blame Liberals First" crowd (thanks O'Reilly) would be best served by taking a few breaths and seeing the entire field, not just what they choose to see.

[The Rap]

Well written Dream. I also agree with jlcct because Lavelle needs to open his mind and maybe get some more education. To wit, define democracy because it isn't just having elections which was the only barometer cited by Bush and his crowd. Try freedom of speech, the press and assembly if you want a taste of true democracy. Keep in mind that Iraqis don't have a clue about what real democracy is and I am not sure they could function with it anyway because of the tribal divisions, cultural mores and the religious warping the thinking in the country. Obama lacks leadership skills? I guess real leadership skills were what we observed for years before Barack came on the scene. Call the opposition names, label them as evil, and tll them it is your way or no way. It is why the world absolutely loved us under the previous administration, huh? And Barack telling Israel what to do? Maybe someone needs to tell Netanyahu that there are many many Jews who also want a two state solution and that he should adhere to agreements made by previous Israeli governments?

[The Rap]

Well it looks like we are at the point of put up or shut up as the Ayatollah came out on the side of Ahmanidajad and warned the protestors to stop or else. If they continue to protest then someting might really be brewing there.

[luvdembravos]

Obama appears to be extremely non-confrontational and wants to be liked by everyone. From what I've seen, he's not very good at decision making which is probably due to the fact that he never had to make many important decisions prior to becoming the president. It would be unfair to say he has no leadership qualities BUT I certainly haven't seen anything that points to him being a great leader --- unless one judges great leaders on their ability to give superb speeches. Obama is thin-skinned and I'm waiting for an event to occur when his adoring press turns on him. It will be interesting to see how he reacts when he isn't getting the love. Still, I don't understand why anyone would want his job ... Obama already looks liked he's aged 5 years since January.

[BraveFan]

Well written Dream. I also agree with jlcct because Lavelle needs to open his mind and maybe get some more education. To wit, define democracy because it isn't just having elections which was the only barometer cited by Bush and his crowd. Try freedom of speech, the press and assembly if you want a taste of true democracy. Keep in mind that Iraqis don't have a clue about what real democracy is and I am not sure they could function with it anyway because of the tribal divisions, cultural mores and the religious warping the thinking in the country. Obama lacks leadership skills? I guess real leadership skills were what we observed for years before Barack came on the scene. Call the opposition names, label them as evil, and tll them it is your way or no way. It is why the world absolutely loved us under the previous administration, huh? And Barack telling Israel what to do? Maybe someone needs to tell Netanyahu that there are many many Jews who also want a two state solution and that he should adhere to agreements made by previous Israeli governments?


The Iranians protesting the election want free speech and that is why the government of Iran has taken control of the media to supress the power of the people. Your makiing an argument as if my position is that Iran is a democracy, thats not at all what I'm saying. How dare Bush call an evil person evil, how dare he call it the way it is shame on him for being tough.

Oh the real reason that foreign countries hated the US is b/c they have state controlled media so they don't get the truth they can the information the antiAmerican government wanted to spread Bush wanted to change that.

So Obama has the right to tell Israel's leader what to do but he shouldn't say anything about Iran's leaders actions? huh?

[bravos4evr]

Obama was inyterviewed a day or so ago and he said that anyone who eould expect a major shift in policy based on who was elected Prez woulkd be in for a surprise because there isnlt that much difference between the two.


Really? He said that? LMAO!!!! That's change I can believe in!!!....hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

[The Rap]

All you guys are nuts or something? Everything seems to be all or nothing or black and white (no pun intended).

Let's deal with each of you one by one;

luvdembraves. Obama can't make a decision? Are you living in a cave? He has made more decisions in the short time he has been POTUS than most have had to make in their first full years on the job. The financial mess, the wars in two places, the torture debate including Gitmo. the selection of a historic Supreme Court Justice, and so on and so on. The real problem is you donlt like the decisions he has made. To that all I can say he is doing exactly what he was voted in to do by the majority of the American voters.

lavelle, I didnlt say Bush had nerve calling someone evil but I do think that was the totality of his world view and the policies that emanated from that type of thinking. Obama can tell Israel anything he wants because the two countries are the strongest allies for about 60 years already. I just said that the reason he has to soft pedal what he says about what Iran because the Ayatollah and Ahmandinajad are salivating at the prospect of making the evil Satan (that they call us) to be the reason for the unrest. You tell me which is more meaningful; Iranians standing up for themselves out of outrage and the cry for freedom or them doing it because we play a role in prodding them to do so? Hell, yesterday they even accused us of meddling because they are geting frustrated because Barack is playing it smart by staying mum. In addition, don't you think the whole world already knows where our country stands on the issue of what is going on there?

Nick, I have no idea what you meant but the bottom line is don't expect too much out of what is happening in Iran. I have said this many times already that the only chance there is for any kind of meaningful change is if the military goes against the rule of the religious nuts and their chosen a-holes.

[BraveFan]

Obama has stated that he wants to make peace with the Muslim world the problem is that he refuses to backup the Iranians and if they somehow overthrow their gov't the Iranian people may not want to make peace with the US. These Iranian protestors are as pro-American as anyone outside of Israel in the region and by refusing to defend them America is losing good will. The question is if America is seen as meddling who does that really affect? The Iranians protesting won't be upset and the supporters of the gov't already hate America, I don't see who would be upset in Iran that doesn't already hate the US.

[BraveFan]

If you ask me Obama really doesn't know what to do so he isn't doing much of anything. Thats why he is basically silent while many Iranians are crying out for his support.

All Obama needed to say:

"We the American people stand with the Iranian people and for their right to have a valid election and to protest an election they deem to be invalid".

[Hobbes]

Really? He said that? LMAO!!!! That's change I can believe in!!!....hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

He was speaking of the two candidates in Iran, not the U.S. candidates. :rolleyes:

[Freddy_Ballgame]

As usual, too many choose to look at these situations strictly from a my side vs. your side viewpoint. When will you be able to grasp that, just like when Dubya was in office, this isn't a freakin' sporting contest wherein the libs or cons or dems or reps get to claim some sort of victory for themselves? This is the future we're talking about. The old saw is still true, "Act in haste, repent at leisure." This isn't a reality show where you vote on the success of a guy simply because you're pissed off he beat your guy in an election. The future of the world may well be at stake and that's not something you rush through or try and "cowboy up" the leaders of other nations who are at the least among the lunatic fringe. You have to look at as many approaches as you can, weigh the pros and cons, then formulate a plan. It won't happen overnight or in a few days. To rush into something just because you think you have to do something is foolhardy.
Once again, try and appraise these situations with an open mind, not the same old weak one that's welded into conforming to party policies or the tired old rhetoric. It is a new day and we face very serious consequences. Look past the defeat and try and see the whole picture.

[BraveFan]

The leader of Iran is now blaming the US for this so why not stand up for Iranians? We are going to get blamed any way even when we aren't involved so we should support them any way. I'm not saying we phsyical do anything but we should stand behind them with rhetoric. Keep in mind that the youth in Iran is very pro American and by not siding with them we would be harming our future with them and if we ever want to have a new regime in Iran they are the people we will need. By not standing up for the protestors we would be harming our relationship with the Muslims who we can reach, they will be asking each other where is the US?

The biggest concern for me when it comes to Obama's reaction is that he doesn't really have a position or idea of what to do. He appears to not have any idea so he is doing nothing instead. Obama has bad instincts when it comes to issues like this, remember Obama's horrible reaction to the Georgia/Russia conflict during the campaign? His biggest problem is that the refuses to take the side of the allies and instead believes that both sides are of some fault.

[The Rap]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Tell me the truth; Do you think you are smarter than Obama? You don't even understand what is going on in Iran. You think the crowds are pro-American? They are protesting because they think they got screwed by an election being rigged and are focused on that. I watch one Iranian after another come unto TV and say that Americans are watching all this with wishful thinking. This isn't a revolution my friend no matter what you are hoping for. There is very little that Obama can do and the smart thing is to shut up for the moment and let things develop. He even made a remark at the dinner tonight about the pain of watching the Iranians suffer but he isn't stupid to think this means they will over throw the lunatic at the top.

[BraveFan]

Its time that all Americans pray for the Iranian people as they protest the rigged election and thugs that run the Iranian gov't. Tomorrow they are planning a major protest and the Iranian thugs running the country are kicking out all media, this is for an obvious reason, they don't want to show the blood shed that may occur. For this time lets drop all partisan discussion on the issue and wish Iranians the best of luck and hope that some how they defeat the thugs ruining their nation.

[BraveFan]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Tell me the truth; Do you think you are smarter than Obama? You don't even understand what is going on in Iran. You think the crowds are pro-American? They are protesting because they think they got screwed by an election being rigged and are focused on that. I watch one Iranian after another come unto TV and say that Americans are watching all this with wishful thinking. This isn't a revolution my friend no matter what you are hoping for. There is very little that Obama can do and the smart thing is to shut up for the moment and let things develop. He even made a remark at the dinner tonight about the pain of watching the Iranians suffer but he isn't stupid to think this means they will over throw the lunatic at the top.

the youth of Iran is as pro American as any Muslim nations in the middle east outside of Qatar and Kuwait. I'd also appreciate it if in every quote of mine you wouldn't attack me as being as someone who doesn't know what I am talking about just b/c you have a different opinion. Just b/c I'm younger than you doesn't mean I'm not informed.

[bravos4evr]

All you guys are nuts or something? Everything seems to be all or nothing or black and white (no pun intended).

Let's deal with each of you one by one;

luvdembraves. Obama can't make a decision? Are you living in a cave? He has made more decisions in the short time he has been POTUS than most have had to make in their first full years on the job. The financial mess, the wars in two places, the torture debate including Gitmo. the selection of a historic Supreme Court Justice, and so on and so on. The real problem is you donlt like the decisions he has made. To that all I can say he is doing exactly what he was voted in to do by the majority of the American voters.

lavelle, I didnlt say Bush had nerve calling someone evil but I do think that was the totality of his world view and the policies that emanated from that type of thinking. Obama can tell Israel anything he wants because the two countries are the strongest allies for about 60 years already. I just said that the reason he has to soft pedal what he says about what Iran because the Ayatollah and Ahmandinajad are salivating at the prospect of making the evil Satan (that they call us) to be the reason for the unrest. You tell me which is more meaningful; Iranians standing up for themselves out of outrage and the cry for freedom or them doing it because we play a role in prodding them to do so? Hell, yesterday they even accused us of meddling because they are geting frustrated because Barack is playing it smart by staying mum. In addition, don't you think the whole world already knows where our country stands on the issue of what is going on there?

Nick, I have no idea what you meant but the bottom line is don't expect too much out of what is happening in Iran. I have said this many times already that the only chance there is for any kind of meaningful change is if the military goes against the rule of the religious nuts and their chosen a-holes.

I actually misunderstood what you were talking about in that Obama paraphrase for some dadburn reason( I read it like Obama was referring to himself and Bush and not about the two Iranian presidents) So you can see why I wrote what I did...... My mistake!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Lavell, I see where you ask that the partisan type comments be put aside to consider the Iranians. Why not put them aside as a consideration to America, as I have been asking for some time? Aren't we as a nation deserving of that as much as the Iranians? After years of dealings with the Iranians it is pretty obvious that they shift their allegiances like grains of sand in the wind. They're all about whichever side is giving them what they want at the time. If the youth over there really want change, they'll have to be willing to do whatever it takes to bring it about. They cannot count on the U.S. doing it for them. Over the decades we've done enough meddling in their country with little positive (at least out in the open) to show for it. We've involved their country with our own puppet leaders for our nefarious purposes and to our gain. While I understand that has been the only way to orchestrate things over there to our benefit, it sure has left them in a heckuva state. For a long time, our black ops were able to maintain an outward appearance of an alliance. Even that facade was shattered.
Also, I don't think Michael considers you as uninformed because of your age, but moreso because of the content of your posts. You rarely stray from old party guidelines and defend any action on your side of the aisle. In the 21st century we must move beyond those old parties and benign philosophies to try and develop something new that can work in today's world. It's obvious the only way to advance is to adjust and change with the times. Yelling about liberals or conservatives is blase and out-of-touch with what we need today. Neither philosophy ever proved out so let's work on a new one that might. Who knows what we can accomplish as a nation if we work as hard together as we've worked against each other in the past?

[bravos4evr]

Hmmm Freddy, love ya, however, you basically railed against Bush the entire time. Yet you expect the other side to not do the same whilst yer boy is Prez..... It seems , well, unlikely.

I was never a Bush guy I always thought of him as a liberal in sheeps clothing ( or what they call a neocon these days) they are tough on the social issues and light on the fiscal ones.... it bothered me.

So, needless to say, i feel that yer cry for bi-partisanship is basically misguided at best and protectionist at worst. ait seems to be a very well,.... partisan thing to say to be honest!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Quite a bit of revisionist history you're spinning there, Nick. I was against the stuff Bush was doing to this nation and the world. I did not like him and didn't buy into his regime and didn't hide those feelings. It was based on what passed as his leadership and the way his henchmen ran things. Buddy-buddy dealings with among others, Haliburton, using lower level bureaucrats as scapegoats for the higher level bureaucrats who were ruining our name and reputation around the globe, lying constantly, misrepresenting situations and conditions and his administrations' disregard of those in need after disasters.
Even in those days I was trying to influence people towards working together, looking ahead at what the nation would be at the end of Bush's run. Complaining about events that were happening or had happened is a bit different than blaming Obama for every problem he inherited and his lack of solving those issues before he'd finished the inaugural process. Picking apart everything one can just to be critical helps no one and amounts to little more than piling on. Hey, I understand there are legitimate questions being raised about Obama and some of the things he's done so far. I'm not exactly thrilled with everything either. I also understand that some things have been done out of necessity rather than out of expediency. Obama and the rest of the world face some very critical issues and they must take time to evaluate each issue and decide on what looks like the best solutions and most workable ones. Spitballing, like Lavell generally does, is as useless as a dedication to those old philosophies that have failed us. Each of us have a core system of beliefs that we base our thinking on. I'm saying those systems for many seem to be too strongly rooted in systems which have failed us and new philosophies and core beliefs need to be established to face the new crises. I'm not trying to protect Obama, just trying to broaden the scope of anyone willing to think a bit differently.

[The Rap]

Lavelle, Freddy is right and it isn't your age that means a thing to me except that it is a reason that I still retain some hope you will see the light. Nick, Freddy has been preachin his together theme for years now and I totally agree with him but you and lavelle are missing one major point: all these things were debated last November and the American people voted for Barack and we won. One thing you can't complain about and that is that Barack has kept his word with what he promised during the campaign and the only complaint can really come from the left who feel he hasn't gone far enough.

[BraveFan]

Lavelle, Freddy is right and it isn't your age that means a thing to me except that it is a reason that I still retain some hope you will see the light. Nick, Freddy has been preachin his together theme for years now and I totally agree with him but you and lavelle are missing one major point: all these things were debated last November and the American people voted for Barack and we won. One thing you can't complain about and that is that Barack has kept his word with what he promised during the campaign and the only complaint can really come from the left who feel he hasn't gone far enough.

So b/c Obama won the election then he is automatically correct? I guess you applied that to Bush to. There are several reasons why Obama won and several issues in which Americans supported McCain over him but not enough for Obama to lose. National security and foreign policy are issues in which most Americans polled supporting McCain on the issue. To handle the Iranian situations I bet more people would trust McCain than Obama.

There have been polling on several current issues in which Obama's position is in the minority, yes Obama is personaly popular but his policies aren't.

[Dreamscape]

Well, actually, I would say bravos has a point. It's easy to say "let's work together regardless of partisan leaning," yet only bash one side. Now, granted, Freddy had eight years to bash on Bush and the leadership will always get the majority of bashing, but I haven't seen many similar comments about Barrack Obama. Now, the argument can be made that Obama simply has given him less opportunities, but I think the "we should stop being so darn partisan" argument really doesn't have much to walk on.

Being partisan is American. Having deeply rooted beliefs that when challenged, you argue for is fine. Sure, it would be great to be completely objective, but no one is and it's not something to harp on. I'm willing to give Obama the patience to make things right because I believe in him, not because I'm more objective. He's my guy. I'm not going to apologize for that. Freddy, when you argue for bipartisanship, I don't feel you are arguing for liberals to be bipartisan, but conservatives. Hey, that would be awesome. But it's pretty hollow.

[BraveFan]

Back to Iran situation and not about Obama. This is getting awful and it appears to be getting worse. The video of the 16 year old girl dying after getting shot is horrifying and while graphic the world needs to see the evidence of what this horrible regime is doing.

[Dreamscape]

To handle the Iranian situations I bet more people would trust McCain than Obama.

There have been polling on several current issues in which Obama's position is in the minority, yes Obama is personaly popular but his policies aren't.
To the first thing...I bet most people don't give a damn about Iran. You know why? Because they are worried about where their next paycheck is coming from, how they are going to keep their house, what happens if they or a family member has to go to the hospital, how their child's education will be handled, etc., etc., etc.

And the polls argument in your second paragraph is funny. If all of his positions were popular, he would be a guy who cared too much about polls. That was the argument against Bill Clinton. But your argument is that his persona is more popular than his policies. Wasn't that why George W. Bush was elected in the first place? Because he seemed like the good family man you could have a beer with and joke around? The average voter tends to not care too much about minor position polls, especially when it's not an election year. Only when it is do they start thinking "ya know, burning flags is bad."

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I wasn't bashing any group, Dream, just the guys who seem only interested in the us vs. them stuff. I figure you haven't seen as much against Obama because he hasn't been in office that long and a lot of the things he's dealt with are like continuations of older plans. I'm not crazy about all the bailouts, and I wasn't when Bush began them. I do understand the domino effect the nation and world would've faced if they just told all those hat-in-handers to piss off. There are so many ramifications involved in watching those banking industries and auto makers go belly-up. Millions of people would face unemployment here, because it isn't just a bank or two or one or two auto makers, it's all the industries who service those industries or produce products dependent upon those big guys. That's a lot of people with nowhere to turn and a government unable to do much for them just because of the stark numbers involved.
My "preaching" on getting past the division isn't aimed only at one group, it's out there for all. I haven't said a lot to the people who voted in Obama because they aren't posting things just to try and start some crap. I believe we all need to find a way to get past the world politics you know, because it hasn't always been that way. Sure, there have always been the partisans who never want to work with the other side, but it has never been as harsh and mean as it has become. To survive, we may have to realize all the in-fighting between Americans serves no one but our foes. If you think that's hollow, you are part of the group who should reassess their values. Is it more important for you to feel like you are on the correct side or to be part of making this place stronger and better? We all need to ask ourselves that question.

[The Rap]

So far this has been an interesting thread highlighted by Freddy's long running plea for peace between us. Lavelle, please understand that I detest the Iranian leadership as much as anyone and I am willing to bet I know more Iranians that you do. My heart goes out to them as they cling to the hope that this uprising will rise above just a dispute about a rigged election. Consider that they don't believe it is going to go that far because of the way the people will be massacred if they try. They all say Obama is doing the right thing by soft pedaling it because our history over there is a negative one and the Ayatolla and his gang are salivating at the prospect of Obama opening his mouth. To all those on the right who point out that France and Germany made more forceful statements I would like to point out how stupid that is because simply put they are not the USA wherein lies the crux of the problem.

[The Rap]

Oh and John McCain, God bless him, needs to bone up on his history as he talked about Reagan speaking up when he was President about what was happening in Czechoslovakia. Poor guy might be as senile as the Prez he idolizes was because Czech problems were in 1968 well beore the Gipper ever walked into the Oval Office to work.

[luvdembravos]

Oh and John McCain, God bless him, needs to bone up on his history as he talked about Reagan speaking up when he was President about what was happening in Czechoslovakia. Poor guy might be as senile as the Prez he idolizes was because Czech problems were in 1968 well beore the Gipper ever walked into the Oval Office to work.

Wonder why you've never called out Joe Biden after he made one of his many gaffes regarding history and other matters? Just saying ...:rolleyes:

[The Rap]

Maybe because McCain's comment had something to do with the subject we were talking about?:D

[bravos4evr]

Maybe you are continuing to be divisive and try and point fingers at the other side after agreeing with what freddy said......... What the hell does Reagan have to do with anything we are talking about?

Bill Clinton farted and it was dumb cuz he said it smelled like Libya.....

[The Rap]

Maybe you need to read what comes before I post. I didn't bring up Reagan as someone on "your side" did so I answered it. In addition, John McCain raised the subject of Reagan up, not me. I am not being divisive and never intend to be but it is amazing to me that the country is going one way while there are a few here who still go the opposite way.:(

[bravos4evr]

sick of arguing with a zealot.................

[Middle Man]

This thread needs to get back on course pronto. Pick a political issue and comment on it or debate it with some reasonable level of maturity. Otherwise, there's no reason for the thread to exist. And don't make it personal, please.

[BraveFan]

Oh and John McCain, God bless him, needs to bone up on his history as he talked about Reagan speaking up when he was President about what was happening in Czechoslovakia. Poor guy might be as senile as the Prez he idolizes was because Czech problems were in 1968 well beore the Gipper ever walked into the Oval Office to work.

I think he was talking about Poland not Czech.

[BraveFan]

While I think we shoud backup the Iranian people I don't think we should go all out and support Mousavi b/c he is a thug himself.

Not only did he start the Nuclear program but there might be something worse.
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/spytalk/2009/06/mousavi-celebrated-in-iranian.html?referrer=js

[BraveFan]

When I mentioned polling I was just pointing out that what Michael said about the people backing Obama's policies was wrong. Yes Obama maintains a higher personal approval but that doesn't mean the American people back everything he is doing.

[Dreamscape]

What policies? How many polls? You can't talk up poll numbers without actually citing the poll numbers.

By the way, Mousavi's kid was on The Daily Show last night and one of the great things he said was that he would rather have people support the cause for change in Iran, but that does not have to mean it must be the United States government. In fact, it should be the people writing letters to Iranian embessies all over the world asking why these things are happening.

You really ignore that the United States government has a certain slant to it. The older people have grown up to hate the US government and the young people were surprised to find out they were part of the axis of evil. Nobody in Iran wants the US government to try to get involved to bring change. What Iran needs to know is the whole world is watching, not the government of a country that calls them evil anyway.

[BraveFan]

What policies? How many polls? You can't talk up poll numbers without actually citing the poll numbers.

By the way, Mousavi's kid was on The Daily Show last night and one of the great things he said was that he would rather have people support the cause for change in Iran, but that does not have to mean it must be the United States government. In fact, it should be the people writing letters to Iranian embessies all over the world asking why these things are happening.

You really ignore that the United States government has a certain slant to it. The older people have grown up to hate the US government and the young people were surprised to find out they were part of the axis of evil. Nobody in Iran wants the US government to try to get involved to bring change. What Iran needs to know is the whole world is watching, not the government of a country that calls them evil anyway.


I think they young Iranians are smart enough to figure out that Bush was talking about the Iranian being evil not the people the same gov't that the Iranians are protesting against. The world but maybe watching but if the world isn't willing to do anything it won't really matter if we are watching.

There is a reason that many of the signs of the protesters are in English and not in Arabic. They want the rest of the world to back their cause and if we refuse to do so they may never forgive us and that would harm our relations with more Muslims.

Eventually this generation of Iranains will grow up and be more powerful inside Iranian politics and be able to change the country and if this happens and the US doesn't backup them then they may not share any positive opinions they share of the US.

[luvdembravos]

I am not being divisive and never intend to be but it is amazing to me that the country is going one way while there are a few here who still go the opposite way.:(

Michael. when I read a comment like this, I’ve got to wonder where you get your information from? The U.S. is hardly going “one way” while a small minority goes the opposite direction.

Despite W’s low popularity ratings, a terrible economy and a lousy campaign executed by John McCain, Obama only captured roughly 52% of the popular vote nationwide. Even though Obama ran an almost flawless campaign and promised Americans the “hope and change” they were seeking, there were still roughly 48% of Americans who went the other way. If the election were held today, Obama would still win but I‘d bet it would be by the same margin or even closer than it was last November.

With just under 50% of Americans failing to sign-up for the Obama Brand, I don’t think you can make such an absolute statement that ”the country is going one way.” :no:

[BraveFan]

Great Obama has appointed another Czar to run the auto industry. How in the world is Obama able to just name people to a position that has no oversight. People wake up the gov't is taking over it maybe time for an American revolution.

[BraveFan]

According to Shep Smith the protestors are now chanting "Death to the Islamic Republic", so much for this being just about an election.

[BraveFan]

Question: Should the world regonize Akaminijahd (spelling) as President of Iran?

[The Rap]

Hey luv, good point but I was talking about approval ratings more than the election. Lavelle, Ahmandinajad doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks because the only one he wants to make happy is the Ayatollah and their shared warped view of Islam. The Iranians are also not looking for anyone to come to their recue because they are intelligent enough to know any change has to come from within and its like I have said many times already the only chance of that happening is if the military stands up to the clerics. The thought did occur to me if now wouldn't be an opportune time for Israel to take out their nuclear facility.

[Chris_Moderato]

The thought did occur to me if now wouldn't be an opportune time for Israel to take out their nuclear facility.

Hey, that's a good idea. What would really help the situation now is for another nation to launch an attack on Iran while they're in the middle of an uprising, especially if the planes that launch the attack are from an American ally and are painted up with the star of David.

[bravos4evr]

Hey, that's a good idea. What would really help the situation now is for another nation to launch an attack on Iran while they're in the middle of an uprising, especially if the planes that launch the attack are from an American ally and are painted up with the star of David.

Israel isn't that dumb! They'd at least disguise their planes to look like Argentina or Paraguay first!

[Dreamscape]

I think they young Iranians are smart enough to figure out that Bush was talking about the Iranian being evil not the people the same gov't that the Iranians are protesting against. The world but maybe watching but if the world isn't willing to do anything it won't really matter if we are watching.

There is a reason that many of the signs of the protesters are in English and not in Arabic. They want the rest of the world to back their cause and if we refuse to do so they may never forgive us and that would harm our relations with more Muslims.

Eventually this generation of Iranains will grow up and be more powerful inside Iranian politics and be able to change the country and if this happens and the US doesn't backup them then they may not share any positive opinions they share of the US.
While Obama has not used heavy-handed, regretful rhetoric (the kind his predecessor made an art form of), the United States government is clearly on the side of supporting human rights, the right to assemble, the right to choose your government. Nevertheless, Iran is accusing the US of interfering in their affairs. Funny, Iran says we are doing too much and the conservative right thinks we really can't do enough. Where was this outrage by the conservative right when the gun-shy Bill Clinton stayed out of Rwanda. Oh, that's right, they didn't have protests and they didn't twitter and they didn't have shaky camera phone footage. My bad.

Here's my question...what is Obama supposed to do to Iran to show the United States supports the protests? Or, is he simply supposed to use empty words and then, almost certainly, you would criticize him for not taking enough action or conversly, trying to meddle into the problems of Iran.

Iran is a greatly educated society. They have english-only press in Iran. The fact that protesters would use english isn't that amazing.

You're reaching and searching for something to be critical of Obama with. The other criticisms haven't seemed to stick. So, the critics are reduced to "he's not doing enough as the world's policeman." Tomorrow, it will be "why does the US have to be the world's policeman?" I, of course, remain unamused.

[bravos4evr]

Hmmmm, conservatives don't protest cuz it's friggin stupid for one thing ( cept those wacko abortion people and they don't count).

Number 2, Rwanda has absolutely nothing of value for us. To be honest I'm not gonna put our soldiers at risk for anything that isn't in the best inerests of the USA.

3rdly, I think this is all BS anyway, Iran is controlled by extremist muslim clerics regardless of whom the president is. The people know this, so why protest like this? It only makes sense if they are trying to get some sort of concessions out of their own govt and/or to garner attention from the world press to show they aren't all crazy bomb toting terrorists. They've accomplished the latter, the former remains to be seen.

I personally think that we should prolly leave them alone and let the mself destruct on their own and then steal as much of their resources as we can. But that's my theory on most countries until they do something directly to us or our allies. ( then we should wipe them off the map , or at least teach them a lesson, then steal their resources. What are govts and militaries for anyway?) :-)

[luvdembravos]

Hey luv, good point but I was talking about approval ratings more than the election.


Michael, I don’t think you can equate high approval rating with votes or support of his agenda. Obama hasn’t been in office that long and has been more moderate than many thought he’d be … the situation he inherited (two wars, financial crisis, etc.) has hindered his ability to unleash his full liberal agenda.

But there are some really tough issues coming up for Obama like tax hikes and health care reform which have the potential to polarize the electorate. The average American doesn’t care about GITMO, the Iranian situation, Korean missile launches and Somalian pirates but they do care about their jobs, health care and their tax burden.

A fair-minded individual would be hard pressed to disapprove Obama’s overall performance thus far. Sure one should be concerned with the long-term impact of the Pork Stimulus bill or the GM bailout but I think Obama and his advisors determined they had to do something now (short-term fix) and worry about the long-term fallout later.

So if a pollster called me and asked if I approved of the president’s performance so far, I would say “yes.” But the question is so binary (yes or no). It’s like giving the guy a "pass" or "fail" grade without revealing the total quality of his work.

I’m guessing that you approve of Obama’s performance so far and would give him an A or A+ as a passing grade. If asked, I would also approve his performance but would give him a C or C- …. and I still wouldn’t vote for him because I want a president who will get a higher grade against my grading standard.

[luvdembravos]

Here's a prime example of why you can't trust many polls - especially those conducted by the New York Times and CBS:

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=49999

[Dreamscape]

Well, the potential 2012 GOP ticket lost a possibility in Mark Sanford. The South Carolina governor was "missing (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105850521)" as he went down to South America for some quality time with his mistress.

Bizarre story because nobody seemed to know where he was. And on Father's Day weekend, to leave your kids so you can get your sex on? Tsk, tsk, tsk. And to lie about it and say you were hiking our beautiful Appalachian Trail. For shame!

...it's kind of a funny story, I guess.

[BraveFan]

Well, the potential 2012 GOP ticket lost a possibility in Mark Sanford. The South Carolina governor was "missing (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105850521)" as he went down to South America for some quality time with his mistress.

Bizarre story because nobody seemed to know where he was. And on Father's Day weekend, to leave your kids so you can get your sex on? Tsk, tsk, tsk. And to lie about it and say you were hiking our beautiful Appalachian Trail. For shame!

...it's kind of a funny story, I guess.


The GOP needs to kick this arse out of the party and rid ourselves of scum like Sanford and the Senator from Nevada, I'm tired of these fake conservatives destroying our good party.

[Dreamscape]

Here's a prime example of why you can't trust many polls - especially those conducted by the New York Times and CBS:

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=49999
Well, statistics tells me that outliers can happen and a poll that is sampled without weight to party affiliation can result in one party being overrepresented. What is at question here is if the New York Times/CBS attempted to skew the results or the results occurred at random or if they occurred by a poor methodology. Certainly, the poll did not express a true sample of Americans.

That said, if you are going to bother reading CSN News, you might as well read Daily Kos, too.

[Dreamscape]

The GOP needs to kick this arse out of the party and rid ourselves of scum like Sanford and the Senator from Nevada, I'm tired of these fake conservatives destroying our good party.
Um, Sanford is a conservative. While in Congress, the American Conservative Union gave him a rating of 92. He has a libertarian streak, but the guy clearly is conservative. Michael Steele labeled him, along with Jindal, Pawlenty, and Palin as the four rising stars of the party not too long ago.

Unless you believe that infidelity makes you a non-conservative.

[The Rap]

I look at it differently. In my opinion the Republicans are improving simply because at least now their scandals involve women that their guys are going after . . . .On a serious note the hypocrisy is astounding in my opinion. I know Edwards behaved like an a-hole but the Republican guys were the ones preaching family values and religious crap.

[The Rap]

Oh and Lavelle I feel for you because Dream is right as these guys are real conservatives. The fact that they are lowlifes as well is what bothers you.

[BraveFan]

I look at it differently. In my opinion the Republicans are improving simply because at least now their scandals involve women that their guys are going after . . . .On a serious note the hypocrisy is astounding in my opinion. I know Edwards behaved like an a-hole but the Republican guys were the ones preaching family values and religious crap.

The Dems have Barney Frank and the former Gov. of New Jersey so they had plenty of gay affairs.

I think the GOP is harmed also because the GOP base cares more about affairs than the Democratic base. The truth is both parties have sleeze balls like Sanford and Edwards.

Atleast Sanford's wife didn't have cancer.

[Chris_Moderato]

Well, the potential 2012 GOP ticket lost a possibility in Mark Sanford. The South Carolina governor was "missing (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105850521)" as he went down to South America for some quality time with his mistress.

Bizarre story because nobody seemed to know where he was. And on Father's Day weekend, to leave your kids so you can get your sex on? Tsk, tsk, tsk. And to lie about it and say you were hiking our beautiful Appalachian Trail. For shame!

...it's kind of a funny story, I guess.

Remarkable. Just remarkable...:no:

[Dreamscape]

I'm confused. Did Barney Frank have a gay affair that I'm forgetting? Or is it that he's gay that makes it a gay affair (two very different contexts of the word, BtheW).

[Chris_Moderato]

Atleast Sanford's wife didn't have cancer.

Come on, man. Really? That's what this discussion has degraded to? At least his wife didn't have cancer?! Some of you guys need to gain a little perspective.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

The GOP needs to kick this arse out of the party and rid ourselves of scum like Sanford and the Senator from Nevada, I'm tired of these fake conservatives destroying our good party.

When will you realize this is your party? This is the kind of thing I've been talking about. The party system is a good system, when the parties themselves are good. For too long, the parties have been allowed all sorts of "indiscretions" and improprieties. Certainly we are all human and we all fall short but where we really fall short is in continually falling back on the same ol' same ol' to lead us. This is not a partisan shot because there is no shortage of heels and malefactors in either party. Quit giving your trust to a party that doesn't deserve it and look at the people as individuals. Don't rely so heavily on those old institutions to do your thinking for you, they're only prolonging their own livelihoods. Maintain the integrity of your own beliefs but don't trust a major party to have your interests at heart, they only want to maintain the status quo. Think about it folks.....get elected, get a payday for the rest of your life. Explain where "public servant" fits in that description. :wall:

[The Rap]

The fact that Edwards' wife has cancer doesn't have anything to do with the subject because cheating is cheating. In fact, I can look at Edwards cheating on a sick wife and say "How do we know if she now has physical problems that totally turn him off so he went elsewhere?" I still think cheating is wrong even in that case but the fact she has cancer has nothing to do with this discussion.:hissyfit:

[The Rap]

I'm confused. Did Barney Frank have a gay affair that I'm forgetting? Or is it that he's gay that makes it a gay affair (two very different contexts of the word, BtheW).

Excellent point because Barney didn't do anything wrong since he has always been quite open aboiut his sexual preference.

[BraveFan]

Excellent point because Barney didn't do anything wrong since he has always been quite open aboiut his sexual preference.

I was talking about Frank running a gay prositute ring out of his basement. I don't see that as fine.

[luvdembravos]

And on Father's Day weekend, to leave your kids so you can get your sex on? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

What a low-life hypocrite...like so many in politics these days on both sides of the aisle. Just another example of another politicianswho is selfish and doesn't really give a damn about the people he represents.

[Dreamscape]

I was talking about Frank running a gay prositute ring out of his basement. I don't see that as fine.
Hmm, sounds illegal. Of course, no truth was found to him "running" a gay prostitute ring. He has admitted to be on the ethical wrong especially since he admitted he paid for sex, but the belief that Frank ran any prostitution side is just lacking truth. I know, it's the internet, truth isn't needed, but "paying for sex" and "running a prostitution ring out of your basement" are wildly different, both in the eyes of the law and the eyes of simple logic.

[sdp]

I voted for Sanford in 2006. He generally lines up with my political ideals and I've always admired the man. I'm extremely dissapointed and the emotion of the news conference today nearly had me in tears.

Democrat or Republican, it's an unfortunate situation. There is no doubt a broken-hearted wife and children at home and in a dark place somewhere tonight.

But people forget this is not a politician's sin. This is a man's sin and a sin that extends to all walks of life.

That said, I don't think he can survive the rest of his term. Reports are already out indicating that SC taxpayers paid the bill for his escapades. E-mail correspondence between him and the woman are also in the news and they seem damning.

It makes you shake your head and wonder why people do the things that they do.

[bravos4evr]

Cuz everybody likes a little strange!.....lmao!!!!

[Chris_Moderato]

I don't see the big deal. The guy is seperated from his wife. If he thought they weren't getting back together, who's to complain if he goes and gets himself an odd piece of strange over there in Argentina? More power to him, I say. He's a hypocrite and all, but who the f*** isn't?

[BraveFan]

I don't see the big deal. The guy is seperated from his wife. If he thought they weren't getting back together, who's to complain if he goes and gets himself an odd piece of strange over there in Argentina? More power to him, I say. He's a hypocrite and all, but who the f*** isn't?


maybe b/c the governor of a state should disappear without anyone knowing where they were.

[bravos4evr]

The only real beef I see is using taxpayer money to do it. That's just not a smart thing to do cuz it gives you no high ground at all....

Not to mention he didn't lie under oath or do anything extra trashy like that!

[Chris_Moderato]

maybe b/c the governor of a state should disappear without anyone knowing where they were.

You're confusing.

[BraveFan]

You're confusing.

My bad meant to type shouldn't instead of should. Now do you get me?

[BraveFan]

President Obama has now uninvited Iran from 4th of July Celebrations. Man he is turning into a modern day Chruchill, we have a real tough President I think the terrorists will now stop b/c all they really wanted was to celebrate our holidays with us.

[Dreamscape]

President Obama has now uninvited Iran from 4th of July Celebrations. Man he is turning into a modern day Chruchill, we have a real tough President I think the terrorists will now stop b/c all they really wanted was to celebrate our holidays with us.
So, he should have kept the invite open to Iranian diplomats?

Chris was right, you are confusing.

[BraveFan]

So, he should have kept the invite open to Iranian diplomats?

Chris was right, you are confusing.

No but that decision seems to be the toughest thing he has done. Why were they invited in the first place? Just a weird thing to invite them to.

[bravos4evr]

C'mon, Obama is a lot of things, strong ain't one of them. He is getting his ass whooped around by those crafty Iranians, and North Korea. It kinda makes me laugh cept that the country will prolly end up less safe ..... But , you get what you deserve and you idiots voted for him!

We need to bring back imperialism, crush enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamendation of the women!!!!

[BraveFan]

I don't blame Obama for the Iran and North Korean situations but it sure seems that they are taking advantage of the weakness they see in Obama. They are using him and it isn't a good thing for the US. The one good thing that nobody could deny about Bush is that our enemies were afraid of him.

[The Rap]

Baloney as usual. Barack isn't weak at all just because he holds out an offer to those cretins to negotiate first. He wants to avoid the cowboy mentality that the fool who was POTUS before him. Let me ask you guys something; did you watch the ABC special where Obama fielded questions from the audience regarding health care. Didnkt it strike you that he is extremely bright? Could you imagine Bush doing that? So you think that a guy as bright as Obama doesn't recognize what Ahmmandinajad, Khomeni, and Lil Kim are? C'mon!

[The Rap]

Oh and Lavelle, of course they were more afraid of Bush because they viewed him as dense and off the wall. So instead they played on his supposed "strengths" and lured him into invading Iraq and ask yourself which country gained the most from what happened in Iraq?

[BraveFan]

Baloney as usual. Barack isn't weak at all just because he holds out an offer to those cretins to negotiate first. He wants to avoid the cowboy mentality that the fool who was POTUS before him. Let me ask you guys something; did you watch the ABC special where Obama fielded questions from the audience regarding health care. Didnkt it strike you that he is extremely bright? Could you imagine Bush doing that? So you think that a guy as bright as Obama doesn't recognize what Ahmmandinajad, Khomeni, and Lil Kim are? C'mon!

Obama's problem is that he believes its about himself, yes he is intelligent but no matter how good of a speaker he is it won't change opinions of the leaders of Iran and North Korea. No I didn't watch that infomercial. Nixon is probably the most intelligent President in history looke where that got us.

[Hobbes]

Don't you folks ever tire of this nonsense?

[Middle Man]

......... Nixon is probably the most intelligent President in history .....


Yikes! I'd be fascinated to know what criteria you could possibly use that would lead you to that conclusion. He was a smart guy in some ways, no doubt about that, but most intelligent? Not by a long shot.

[Chris_Moderato]

Don't you folks ever tire of this nonsense?

Absolutely. Oh wait, you weren't talking to me, were you? Sorry...

[luvdembravos]

. Let me ask you guys something; did you watch the ABC special where Obama fielded questions from the audience regarding health care. Didnkt it strike you that he is extremely bright?

I didn't watch the infomercial either.

Did Obama actually get any tough questions about healthcare or did they ask him how he learned to love, how his dog, Bo, was doing or how his golf game was coming along? LOL

When I heard ABC news refused to allow his opposition to come on afterwards to provide a counterpoint (and even turned down money for anti-ObamaHealthCare ads), I knew the event was rigged.

[BraveFan]

I didn't watch the infomercial either.

Did Obama actually get any tough questions about healthcare or did they ask him how he learned to love, how his dog, Bo, was doing or how his golf game was coming along? LOL

When I heard ABC news refused to allow his opposition to come on afterwards to provide a counterpoint (and even turned down money for anti-ObamaHealthCare ads), I knew the event was rigged.

just like his press conference where he had the Huffington Post ask the first question if using HP as a real source wasn't bad enough Obama had already been told what question they were going to ask.

[bravos4evr]

Don't you folks ever tire of this nonsense?



No, I enjoy making fun of people way too much. Especially when my own life isn't going so well it's fun to project yer own personal anger and misgivings onto a n enemy that you can then attack and treat like crap and make fun of...

honesty, it's the best policy!

[The Rap]

Gentlemen, please desist already. You have no basis for saying anything was rigged and I watched the program and there were tough questions asked. Lavelle where you got the idea about Nixon being the brightest is probably some right wing rag. You weren't even alive yet when Nixon was POTUS. Yes he was bright but also had so many hangups that it got in the way of his intelligence. Plus he was an embarrasment for what he did that caused him to leave.

[bravos4evr]

Being educated and book smart is by no means as important as the left eing and baby boomers would have one to belive when it comes to being a prez. I would rather have a guy who has had to make seriously tough decisions and has shown a modicum of common sense over some dorky ivy league suit.

But then again, I like Teddy Roosevelt a lot!

[The Rap]

Well did you think Bush had the right brains for the job? Be honest please.

[BraveFan]

hahah that ABC special had a 1.1 rating that is absolutley horrible. Glad to see nobody watched that crap.

[BraveFan]

Well did you think Bush had the right brains for the job? Be honest please.


I can't answer for him but anyone that graduated from Yale and has a masters from Harvard has to be pretty smart. You are acting like Bush is an uneducated clown who couldn't pass a GED.

[Dreamscape]

Can we, uh, not talk about Bush for five seconds? Seriously, Rap, we get it. He was the worst President in the history of the United States, nay, universe. Honestly, comparing Obama to Bush actually hurts Obama. I'd rather we compare him to someone who wasn't, well, so horrible.

[bravos4evr]

Can we, uh, not talk about Bush for five seconds? Seriously, Rap, we get it. He was the worst President in the history of the United States, nay, universe. Honestly, comparing Obama to Bush actually hurts Obama. I'd rather we compare him to someone who wasn't, well, so horrible.




Dream's totally got it. I make a comment about how IMO, common sense and life experience is more important than formal book elarning when determining leadership ( and named no names cept Teddy Roosevelt) and yet Rap brings up Bush....... WTF?

Even if Bush was Stephen Hawking and Obama had a 3rd grade education IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND!!!
We are talking about fundamental principles of thought , not an individual president in which you can project blame!!!! ARGH!!!!!!!

[Hobbes]

Dream's totally got it. I make a comment about how IMO, common sense and life experience is more important than formal book elarning when determining leadership ( and named no names cept Teddy Roosevelt) and yet Rap brings up Bush....... WTF?

Even if Bush was Stephen Hawking and Obama had a 3rd grade education IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND!!!
We are talking about fundamental principles of thought , not an individual president in which you can project blame!!!! ARGH!!!!!!!
To be fair, it wasn't difficult at all to read your post as a slam against the current President. Rap tends to contrast all such criticism against the previous holder of that position.

[luvdembravos]

But didn't Rap recently state that he now likes Bush? What happened?

[The Rap]

I said I like Bush more than Cheney but then Bush opened his mouth and the lies poured out of it like always.Oh and if you want to know a reason why I hate that group anyway then just consider this; I am disabled and live off Social Security. Bush gave the pharmaceutical companies a gift when he changed the medicare prescriptions plan. It created what they call a "donut" meaning a gap where there is no coverage. So now I have a major problem with 5 of the 15 pills I have to take each day and they are possibly the most crucial five of all because there is just no way I can afford to pay for them.

[The Rap]

In addition, who am I supposed to compare Obama with if not Bush? Anyone else didn't face the same problems these guys did and Obama has the problem with the problems created by the Bush era.

[BraveFan]

For all those who trashed Palin I hope they are satisfied with the moron who is VP right now. Joe Biden is an idiot and way dumber than Bush, he just gave a speech on how great Tim Kaine was as governor of New Jersey. Too bad he is the governor of Virginia.

[BraveFan]

I said I like Bush more than Cheney but then Bush opened his mouth and the lies poured out of it like always.Oh and if you want to know a reason why I hate that group anyway then just consider this; I am disabled and live off Social Security. Bush gave the pharmaceutical companies a gift when he changed the medicare prescriptions plan. It created what they call a "donut" meaning a gap where there is no coverage. So now I have a major problem with 5 of the 15 pills I have to take each day and they are possibly the most crucial five of all because there is just no way I can afford to pay for them.

your right, there is a conspiracy led by George Bush to kill you.

[luvdembravos]

Joe Biden is an idiot and way dumber than Bush, he just gave a speech on how great Tim Kaine was as governor of New Jersey. Too bad he is the governor of Virginia.

LOL. Biden probably couldn't find either state on a map. I'm sure Obama loves having Biden by his side ... makes him look so much smarter.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I must admit it's amusing when Lavell calls someone an idiot. Is that from the "It takes one to know one" school of thought? Seriously, I doubt any elected officials actually qualify as idiots. Most are normal with some possibly moronic on occasion. It's a bit difficult to take anyone seriously when they jump on someone with both feet for making a misstatement and their own posts contain misstatements, errors or the ever-popular rhetoric of Rush. Questioning a politician's sanity is understandable when they actually contribute to questionable activities or when they make really poor decisions, but this isn't such a time. Aside from stirring up Rap, why did you even bother to post such rubbish? What purpose could it possibly serve? Grow up and bring something substantial to the discussion. Raising legitimate topics is worthwhile, stooping to this type of crap should be beneath all of us.

[The Rap]

It is because he thinks he is in a battle with me and doesn't realize I care less which I have told him God knows how many times. Bush is brighter than Biden is laughable. Biden is very bright but like many bright people has a problem shooting off at the mouth. At least he can put sentences together something the dunce who used to live in the White House had real trouble doing. Bush's education doesn't mean much considering that many of his achievements were set up by Daddy to make the family look good rather than be shamed. And if you doubt that then realize it is common practice in this country. I went to fine religious schools where I didnlt fit in at all and was openly told that my grandfather one of the top rabbis in the world had cherrypicked the chool and leaving would make him look bad.

[BraveFan]

It is because he thinks he is in a battle with me and doesn't realize I care less which I have told him God knows how many times. Bush is brighter than Biden is laughable. Biden is very bright but like many bright people has a problem shooting off at the mouth. At least he can put sentences together something the dunce who used to live in the White House had real trouble doing. Bush's education doesn't mean much considering that many of his achievements were set up by Daddy to make the family look good rather than be shamed. And if you doubt that then realize it is common practice in this country. I went to fine religious schools where I didnlt fit in at all and was openly told that my grandfather one of the top rabbis in the world had cherrypicked the chool and leaving would make him look bad.

At least Bush didn't cheat his way through school like Biden and doesn't commit plagarism.

[Dreamscape]

Really, BravesFan? That's your ace in the hole?

Ann Coulter was right. Political discourse is dead. And people like her killed it.

[The Rap]

I have no idea where Lavelle gets this crap but what boithers me is his acceptance of it as gospel. Does he really believe that Biden could win so many elections if what he cited is true?

[bravos4evr]

I have no idea where Lavelle gets this crap but what boithers me is his acceptance of it as gospel. Does he really believe that Biden could win so many elections if what he cited is true?


Now, let's be honest Rap, Biden could be dumber than a stack of chicken bones, but if he keeps his districtshappy, he will get reelected!

I think he's a buffoon, but it really doesn't bother me cuz that's kinda the VP's job. You are the clown that makes the audience not notice that the lion tamer is in trouble. You get to go meet the president of Zimbabwe and recieve a mounted Buffalo head! That's the job!

[The Rap]

Nick, you have to be clearer because I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Here's something to think about.....Bush, like him or dislike him, is done. He was helming things when many of today's problems began, he made decisions that contributed to them, but he is done. He is no longer part of the equation of solutions.
Obama, like or dislike him, is the guy in charge and he's now sporting that big target on his back. Let's actually try and discuss some positive steps we can take as a nation instead of b*tching about this guy or that one. Come with some actual ideas instead of more of the same ol' same ol'. Rap, we get it, Bush is practically the AntiChrist in your book, it no longer needs saying. Lavell and Nick, we get that you guys are pissed because Obama defeated your guy. No reason to continually bring up topics designed strictly to piss someone off. If anyone sees a topic that reasonable discussion can be the point of, please kick in with it. If you see a legitimate wrong and have an idea how it can be righted, let's hear it. Please, I think most everyone is exasperated by these same old shots still being fired across the aisles at each other. That's what we have Rush Limbaugh and those type of bought-and-paid-for shills for. Calling people idiots, labelling other posters insane for disagreeing with you and working at being a wise-ass just don't bring much to the show. Can we try and move this discussion forum beyond what it was in the past? It would be quite interesting to see who amongst us has any actual thoughts on anything pertinent.
:thumbsup: :cheers:

[The Rap]

Good idea and I will start, I think Obama is doing a terrific job although no one really knows, and even he doesn't, whether all the things will work out. He made promises during the campaign and is keeping them and let's not forget he was elected by a significant margin. So all the shots coming at him from the opposition means nothing at all to me. In fact, they should be thrilled by the fact that Obama doesn't want to have hearings about things that happened in the past.

[bravos4evr]

Nick, you have to be clearer because I have no idea what you are trying to say.



I'm saying that the job of a Vp is to go and do the goofy stuff that the President isn't going to do ( like go to Zimbabwe for example and recieve a native trophy or agree to some small trade agreement ...etc) That buffoons make good VP's!

People think Dan Quayle was a dope too! But he was a good vP! So was Bush Sr.

I'm just saying that one of the things people hated about Cheney was the fact that he was a controlling powerful VP. People aren't used to that. We tend to like goofy Uncle Biden saying dumb things and cutting ribbons at the new DC Radio Shack!

[Dreamscape]

We tend to like goofy Uncle Biden saying dumb things and cutting ribbons at the new DC Radio Shack!
Um, it was a Best Buy. Excuse you!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Good idea and I will start, I think Obama is doing a terrific job although no one really knows, and even he doesn't, whether all the things will work out. He made promises during the campaign and is keeping them...
This much was rather in line with what I was looking for, Michael.
However this next bit was a rather poorly veiled return to the same old stuff.
...and let's not forget he was elected by a significant margin. So all the shots coming at him from the opposition means nothing at all to me. In fact, they should be thrilled by the fact that Obama doesn't want to have hearings about things that happened in the past.

If this is true, "So all the shots coming at him from the opposition means nothing at all to me." why add it in there?

This part is nothing but anger-provoking material.... "In fact, they should be thrilled by the fact that Obama doesn't want to have hearings about things that happened in the past."

If you believe Obama is doing a good job and is fulfilling his campaign promises, give us the details you are referring to. All the animosity is unnecessary. I'm not trying to start anything, I just wanted to try and point out substance from antagonism. Maybe we can all try harder to bring substantive material into discussion.

[bravos4evr]

Um, it was a Best Buy. Excuse you!

You dem's and yer details......:p

[The Rap]

Fred, nice try and I will try to adhere to what you envision but also think it is unreasonable for any of us to ignore history because those that ignore it are doomed to repeat it (or something like that).

[BraveFan]

Good news: Supreme Court just reversed Sotomayor on the Conn. fire fighter case.

[luvdembravos]

Good news: Supreme Court just reversed Sotomayor on the Conn. fire fighter case.

Better news: Madoff sentenced to 150 years in prison.

[The Rap]

I just hope it isnlt to one of those posh prisons for white collar aholes.

[FrankEC]

I just hope it isnlt to one of those posh prisons for white collar aholes.

Nope, according to CNN, the length of his sentence makes him a flight risk, so no camp. He is going to "federal pound me in the ass prison" for the rest of his life.

[BraveFan]

While it took days for Obama to come to the defense of the Iranian people it took him no time to come to the defense of the thugh in Honduras who was just overthrown b/c he wouldn't follow the nation's constitution in terms of term limits.

[Hobbes]

BraveFan, this isn't going to be your personal thread for taking potshots at Obama. If you have a legitimate topic to discuss, then please do so. If all you have is this type of sniping, then just refrain.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Michael, I haven't encouraged anyone to forget the past, only to realize that it is just that. The past. Continually bashing Bush is about as useful as poring over every GOP source available hoping to find something negative to punch in about Obama. There are plenty of things worthy of discussion, I just don't see this bitchfest as being any of them. You're a well educated, bright guy. You should be able to raise the level of discussion here. The little shots and crackbacks don't reflect your capabilities. I used to really enjoy your columns because of the level of intelligence and the depth of the subject matter you tackled. I'd enjoy seeing more of those because they gave us some legitimate, interesting topics to discuss. I'd enjoy seeing your posts go that way. As has become painfully obvious, anyone can do the jab-jab-jab routine to get a rise out of someone. Sadly, that may be the best we can expect from some.

[BraveFan]

Today was a great day in Iraq as the torche was passed from the US to Iraqis. No matter your opinion of the war it is a great thing and something nobody believed would of happened just three years ago. Its a great day for Iraq, the US, and the other nations that fought the war.

[bravos4evr]

BraveFan, this isn't going to be your personal thread for taking potshots at Obama. If you have a legitimate topic to discuss, then please do so. If all you have is this type of sniping, then just refrain.

I'm calling BS on this right here Hobbes. You seem to forget that it was okay for Rap and others of his ilk to turn the other boards into their personal trash Bush platform! ( and I'm not even a Bush guy, but I believe in fair play). You either let him speak his peace or you eliminate the political boards.... to do otherwise is to be partisan and reflect yer own personal leanings onto yer job and that ain't cool!

[Hobbes]

I'm calling BS on this right here Hobbes. You seem to forget that it was okay for Rap and others of his ilk to turn the other boards into their personal trash Bush platform! ( and I'm not even a Bush guy, but I believe in fair play). You either let him speak his peace or you eliminate the political boards.... to do otherwise is to be partisan and reflect yer own personal leanings onto yer job and that ain't cool!
We didn't let Rap or anybody just fill up a thread with random pot-shots that weren't related to an ongoing discussion. I'm not saying that BraveFan or anybody else can't criticize Obama or whoever they want, as long as it is part of a legitimate topic of discussion. It has nothing to do with my political leanings.

This continuous posting of random pot-shots is purely meant for inflammatory reasons. And frankly, if it continues down this path we will remove the political thread. This thread was kind of a trial to see if we could maintain civil political discourse around here after the elections. But if we can't we'll just eliminate it.

[luvdembravos]

Hobbes does have a point. It’s almost like you retrieve the daily anti-Obama talking points from Fox News and then post it on the political discussion board. Some of the issues being pursued by the current administration are definitely worthy of discussion but not everything. If one wants to get the latest on “anti-Obama stuff”, they can tune in to Sean Hannity at 9:00 PM EST. He usually has it all covered.

But I do hope ChopNation keeps the political discussion thread and that BravesFan is allowed to keep posting his views …we just need to be more selective in posting what’s truly newsworthy and what’s just hate-filled garbage.

[The Rap]

Fred, you said,

"I used to really enjoy your columns because of the level of intelligence and the depth of the subject matter you tackled. I'd enjoy seeing more of those because they gave us some legitimate, interesting topics to discuss."

Thanks but when I wrote anything that wasn't Braves or baseball related on my blog it was removed by the mods.

[Chris_Moderato]

Fred, you said,

"I used to really enjoy your columns because of the level of intelligence and the depth of the subject matter you tackled. I'd enjoy seeing more of those because they gave us some legitimate, interesting topics to discuss."

Thanks but when I wrote anything that wasn't Braves or baseball related on my blog it was removed by the mods.

Reminder (http://www.chopnation.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1393&postcount=6)

[The Rap]

Chris and Dream,

I donlt care if you thank Chris for the reminder and I don't need the reminder. I haven't gone and written another blog against the rules you guys set up, have I? I doesn't mean I think those rules are right or fair but it's your place so I adhere to them although I think its an infringement on free speech. Just my humble opinion.

[Chris_Moderato]

Chris and Dream,

I donlt care if you thank Chris for the reminder and I don't need the reminder. I haven't gone and written another blog against the rules you guys set up, have I? I doesn't mean I think those rules are right or fair but it's your place so I adhere to them although I think its an infringement on free speech. Just my humble opinion.

Reminder (Specifically the last line) (http://www.chopnation.com/boards/showpost.php?p=18&postcount=2)

[BraveFan]

Stupid Supreme Court just ruled those nut jobs at Westboro have the right to picket funerals of our soldiers, WTF??

[BraveFan]

I think it is really sad that nobody is talking about what happened in Iraq yesterday and they are only talking about it in terms of leaving when they do mention it, it should be about our victory in Iraq. I wish that Obama would have mentioned Bush during his press conference today on the issue.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Thanks for the explanation, Michael, and the clarification on what is permitted in the blogs, Chris. Oh yeah, Michael, you chose to omit the line where I said, "I'd like to see your posts go that way." That option is still available, I believe.

Lavell, I suppose many, including myself, think it's much too soon to declare the events of yesterday as "our victory in Iraq." The passing of the command of the security of Iraq over to the Iraqis is noteworthy and hopefully they can take charge and protect their people and homeland. Sadly a bombing destroyed homes and killed several people shortly after the Iraqis assumed control. I think it is truly a positive move for our soldiers to be taking down barricades and leaving the patrols to the Iraqis. The sooner we can bring our troops home the better. I fear however that we are looking at a situation that has the possibility of crumbling very quickly if the Iraqis aren't capable. I also wonder if our troops are more likely to be redeployed to Afghanistan or elsewhere instead of coming home. It is just too early to be celebrating.
About Obama not mentioning Bush, why would he? Historically, standing leaders generally ignore previous leaders in similar situations. If there was something positive that happened on his watch, he gets to take credit for it. That's just the way the game is played.

[luvdembravos]

If there was something positive that happened on his watch, he gets to take credit for it. That's just the way the game is played.

... and blame the negative stuff on the other guy - that's also part of the game ;)

[Hobbes]

... and blame the negative stuff on the other guy - that's also part of the game ;)
'Twas ever so.

[BraveFan]

Anyone else hear about this BS with the feds now forcing home owners to have their homes inspected by environmentalists before they can sell them. If your home isn't a environmentally friendly then you can't sell your home. This is crazy and extreme example of gov't power. It should be left up to buy and seller when it comes to deciding if a home should be sold and for what price. The feds under Obama are taking over everything.

[Chris_Moderato]

Anyone else hear about this BS with the feds now forcing home owners to have their homes inspected by environmentalists before they can sell them. If your home isn't a environmentally friendly then you can't sell your home. This is crazy and extreme example of gov't power. It should be left up to buy and seller when it comes to deciding if a home should be sold and for what price. The feds under Obama are taking over everything.

Yes, that sounds feasible. That sounds like something that would really happen, exactly how you say.

[Middle Man]

Anyone else hear about this BS with the feds now forcing home owners to have their homes inspected by environmentalists before they can sell them. If your home isn't a environmentally friendly then you can't sell your home. This is crazy and extreme example of gov't power. It should be left up to buy and seller when it comes to deciding if a home should be sold and for what price. The feds under Obama are taking over everything.

This is a true story. Except houses won't be inspected by environmentalists, but by radical environmentalists. And they aren't just checking for leaky windows and inadequate insulation, they're also confiscating guns. It's true.

[Dreamscape]

This is a true story. Except houses won't be inspected by environmentalists, but by radical environmentalists. And they aren't just checking for leaky windows and inadequate insulation, they're also confiscating guns. It's true.
And any Bibles and crucifixes.

[bravos4evr]

Stupid Supreme Court just ruled those nut jobs at Westboro have the right to picket funerals of our soldiers, WTF??

ex soldier here and a staunch believer in the constitution I was fighting for.

freedom means putting up with stupid crap, and though their picketing is in extremely poor taste and if I was a cop I'd prolly tend to not notice if a family member kicked the crap out of these loser's. But they have the right to protest as long as they don't physically attack someone. Though I am surprised they haven't been physically attacked!

I think protesting is silly and pointless , but it IS an important right in any free society

[bravos4evr]

This is a true story. Except houses won't be inspected by environmentalists, but by radical environmentalists. And they aren't just checking for leaky windows and inadequate insulation, they're also confiscating guns. It's true.

They can have my mold spores when they pull my cold dead wheezing hand off the basement baseboard....

[Chris_Moderato]

They can have my mold spores when they pull my cold dead wheezing hand off the basement baseboard....

Whoa! The fabled "wheezing hand"! It does exist! Do you also sneeze from your fingertips?

;)

[BraveFan]

Fox News is reporting that Sarah Palin will NOT run for re-election as governor of Alaska.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

Fox News is reporting that Sarah Palin will NOT run for re-election as governor of Alaska.

Not only that, but she will be resigning as governor at the end of July.

Every indication was she had intentions on running for President in 2012. I can't imagine this is in anticipation of that, which means something else may be afoot.

[BraveFan]

Not only that, but she will be resigning as governor at the end of July.

Every indication was she had intentions on running for President in 2012. I can't imagine this is in anticipation of that, which means something else may be afoot.

After hearing Todd Palin's quote that she is going to focus on things that she can't do for her country as governor it doesn't sound like she is quitting politics and may be running for Prez. its a really weird move, we will have to wait and see to seaon why she is doing this. she could be crazy or crazy like a fox.

[Dreamscape]

Oh, it's obvious what this is. She wants to be free of her responsibilities so she can run against Obama in 2012.

I welcome her arrival. I know, be careful what you wish for, but she became played out very quickly.

[Hobbes]

There is not a chance in Hell she even gets the nomination, let alone win the Presidency.

[luvdembravos]

There are a lot of things I like about Sarah Palin ... then she gives a rambling speech and I don't like her as much.

Liberals are so scared of her and for the life of me, I don't understand why?

[Hobbes]

There are a lot of things I like about Sarah Palin ... then she gives a rambling speech and I don't like her as much.

Liberals are so scared of her and for the life of me, I don't understand why?

They are scared of a country where she is in charge.

[luvdembravos]

They are scared of a country where she is in charge.

They should be more concerned that someone knocks off Obama and Biden is put in charge. No that's scary! :eek:

[BraveFan]

They should be more concerned that someone knocks off Obama and Biden is put in charge. No that's scary! :eek:


Yep, I think even Michael would want Bush back if Nancy became President.

[sdp]

Word is, Palin was in Argentina filming a three-way with Mark Sanford and Maria Belen Chapur.

[BraveFan]

Classy Rick Sanchez questioning if she is pregnant again... If she is indeed quitting politics all together I can't blame her. No matter what your politicial feelings are you must she that she was treated unfairly and while all politicians are treated like crap to a level her treatment went beyond that. We saw her daughters attacked, her son who has a mental disorder attacked and then the attacks on her. The amazing thing for me is that none of the 'feminist' came to her defense. If your aren't a left wing woman who believes in abortion on demand then you don't matter. Its sickening.

[Hobbes]

No matter what your politicial feelings are you must she that she was treated unfairly and while all politicians are treated like crap to a level her treatment went beyond that.
I don't agree with that at all.

[Chris_Moderato]

Classy Rick Sanchez questioning if she is pregnant again... If she is indeed quitting politics all together I can't blame her. No matter what your politicial feelings are you must she that she was treated unfairly and while all politicians are treated like crap to a level her treatment went beyond that.

Ah, you just want to bone her. Admit it. She gives you the same feeling that Barack Obama does Chris Matthews, the old shiver up the leg. It's ok to be honest about your feelings, lavell. Just go ahead and admit that you're really just in love with this GILF, and want her to be your cougar.

[BraveFan]

I don't agree with that at all.

so you think it was okay to have her family attacked and hated. the right has sure been harsh and cruel on liberal politicians but we never attacked them to the level that the left attacked Palin.

[BraveFan]

Ah, you just want to bone her. Admit it. She gives you the same feeling that Barack Obama does Chris Matthews, the old shiver up the leg. It's ok to be honest about your feelings, lavell. Just go ahead and admit that you're really just in love with this GILF, and want her to be your cougar.

well unlike Matthews I'm at least getting a thrill up my leg for a woman:)

[The Rap]

The only person I would take Bush in front of would be Cheney. There is definitely more to the story regarding Palin because the move made no sense at all. Also Lavelle, she brought unto herself all the stuff dredged up about her simplly by not even being close to being qualified for higher office.

[BraveFan]

The only person I would take Bush in front of would be Cheney. There is definitely more to the story regarding Palin because the move made no sense at all. Also Lavelle, she brought unto herself all the stuff dredged up about her simplly by not even being close to being qualified for higher office.

then make the case about her qualifications not about her daughter. just b/c you don't think she is qualified doesn't mean you should attack everything. her daughter's pregancy has nothing to do with her qualifications. what has palin ever done to harm anyone? she seems to me to be a nice person and if you think she is unqualified then you are free to think so but that doesn't mean you need to attack her personally.

So do you think its okay to say anything about anyone you deem to be unqualified?

[Dreamscape]

so you think it was okay to have her family attacked and hated. the right has sure been harsh and cruel on liberal politicians but we never attacked them to the level that the left attacked Palin.
Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and all of conservative radio would say differently.

But come on, now. Rush Limbaugh called little Chelsea Clinton the White House dog. You really think the left attacked Palin on a whole new level? Seriously, if your answer is "yes," you lack any objectivity.

Which makes me think of Mike Gallagher. For funsies, I listen to talk radio every now and then and they were having an abortion discussion and Gallagher mentioned a museum of bodies in DC where it has different parts of the body and so forth. One room had fetuses and Gallagher's point was "if you can enter that room and not understand how wrong abortion is, you just don't have a hint of objectivity." To me, he's saying...if you see the same thing I do and don't have my opinion, you're not objective. Well played, Mike.

[bravos4evr]

Ah, you just want to bone her. Admit it. She gives you the same feeling that Barack Obama does Chris Matthews, the old shiver up the leg. It's ok to be honest about your feelings, lavell. Just go ahead and admit that you're really just in love with this GILF, and want her to be your cougar.

I was going to itemize the indescretions of this post.... but it got too tedious. You are in internets time out my friend!!!! Gilf and cougar in the same sentence? have you no shame man?!!!!;)

[bravos4evr]

Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and all of conservative radio would say differently.

But come on, now. Rush Limbaugh called little Chelsea Clinton the White House dog. You really think the left attacked Palin on a whole new level? Seriously, if your answer is "yes," you lack any objectivity.

Which makes me think of Mike Gallagher. For funsies, I listen to talk radio every now and then and they were having an abortion discussion and Gallagher mentioned a museum of bodies in DC where it has different parts of the body and so forth. One room had fetuses and Gallagher's point was "if you can enter that room and not understand how wrong abortion is, you just don't have a hint of objectivity." To me, he's saying...if you see the same thing I do and don't have my opinion, you're not objective. Well played, Mike.

This is not a valid argument Dream! 5 year olds learn that you can't counterpoint with " well she did it too!!!" Not to mention that most lefties do nothing but talk poorly about conservative talk radio and their methods. You can't follow that up by saying it's okay to tear Palin and her family a new arsebottom!!!!!

Party foul!!! Join Chris in internets timeout!!!

[BraveFan]

Some coward blogger at the Huffington Post made a whole blog post with cheap jokes calling her retarded and attacking her hadicaped son. Now thats a real tough guy. What kind of low life male talks crap about women like this. I just wish Todd Palin would pay some of these cowards a visit.

[The Rap]

First of all I donlt take responsibility for anyone writing elsewhere including the Huffington Post. I never even heard of Palin before McCain picked her. I have never attacked her daughter because I care less about her. What I criticized was that the party of values said nothing about her daughter's pregancy and birth of a child when you know what would have been thrown around by thoise same people if it was Obama's older daughter who it happened to. Finally, I think there is no need for attacking Palin as I wish she would run for President in 2012 so that I don't have to get nervous at all about the outcome. If she is stepping down as Governor to get some tutoring and studying done to bone up on world issues, affairs, and problems then I will stand up and applaud her for the effort which is much needed. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[The Rap]

By the way, I donlt bel;ieve she was treated unfairly at all. She got into the ring so take a punch.

[luvdembravos]

well unlike Matthews I'm at least getting a thrill up my leg for a woman:)

MSNBC Fantasy: A three way between Matthews, Olbermann and Barack Obama.

[BraveFan]

Take it easy.

[BraveFan]

Right now it appears to be Romney vs Huckabee and if the GOP wants to have any shot they better choose Romney of those two.

[The Rap]

I wrote on my blog that it will be Romney IMO.

[Hobbes]

Nobody knows what will happen with candidates for 2012, and it's pointless to discuss who should be chosen this early in the game. Too many things can and will change in the next couple of years.

[Dreamscape]

This is not a valid argument Dream! 5 year olds learn that you can't counterpoint with " well she did it too!!!" Not to mention that most lefties do nothing but talk poorly about conservative talk radio and their methods. You can't follow that up by saying it's okay to tear Palin and her family a new arsebottom!!!!!
I'd agree.

If I saw people tearing the Palin clan an "arsebottom." I have seen her intelligence attacked and that's just fine. Laura Ingraham calls Obama Urkel. Am I supposed to be up in arms about that?

Honestly, you can find anything on the internet. But finding an isolated incident is not nearly the same as a trend. And don't tell me that "it's right in front of you." Not that you would say that particularly, but that's the argument. It's lazy.

[BraveFan]

I wrote on my blog that it will be Romney IMO.


Well thats probably the worst candidate for Obama. I'd pay to see Romney debate Obama on the economy. I like Palin a lot but I think Mitt has a better chance of winning. I'm starting to think that Palin would be like Goldwater meaning she would have a very enthusastic following and die hard supporters but doesn't appeal to the masses. While Goldwater got crushed he did set up the Reagan Revolution. I'm not saying that will happen with Palin just that I think she could do help the party in some way.

Anyone But Huckabee!!!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Trying to protect Ms. Palin from abusive remarks or taunts strictly because of gender is sexist. Equality means taking the s#it and/or the gravy equally, doesn't it?
Palin leaving office to "cram" for the presidency is high comedy. I mean that is a riot! Maybe they'll get Dan Quayle to attend those classes and maybe he'll get his GOP presidential GED to give her some competition!
"No cribbage for me tonight, Rush! I'm studying to be the next president!"

:thumbsup: :D

[BraveFan]

Trying to protect Ms. Palin from abusive remarks or taunts strictly because of gender is sexist. Equality means taking the s#it and/or the gravy equally, doesn't it?
Palin leaving office to "cram" for the presidency is high comedy. I mean that is a riot! Maybe they'll get Dan Quayle to attend those classes and maybe he'll get his GOP presidential GED to give her some competition!
"No cribbage for me tonight, Rush! I'm studying to be the next president!"

:thumbsup: :D


your drawing a conclusion to an unknown, nobody knows yet why Palin really quit so to say she is doing it to cram for the Presidency is wrong at the moment.

[BraveFan]

I believe that the 2012 election will be much like a normal election. Meaning that I believe that there will not be as high voter turnout as 2008. I don't think that there will be those large number of young new voters and African American voters. I think Obama will still be popular with those two demographics but I think the rate at which they turnout will go down a lot.

[The Rap]

They won't go down because a lesson has been learned about getting the vote out and electing the right guys. Mitt would do better than most against Barack in a debate but that just means he would lose by a little and not the amount that McCain did or Palin would. Palin does have an advantage in a debate that is based on sexism. That is being treated softer than others just because she is a woman. Even Biden didn't know what to do with that situation. And as far as Sarah goes one of the scariest things to me is when she says she quit because she has "higher whatever" to do.

[bravos4evr]

There is not a chance in Hell she even gets the nomination, let alone win the Presidency.

Exact quote of mine when Obama entered the fray!!!!

[bravos4evr]

I'd agree.

If I saw people tearing the Palin clan an "arsebottom." I have seen her intelligence attacked and that's just fine. Laura Ingraham calls Obama Urkel. Am I supposed to be up in arms about that?

Honestly, you can find anything on the internet. But finding an isolated incident is not nearly the same as a trend. And don't tell me that "it's right in front of you." Not that you would say that particularly, but that's the argument. It's lazy.

I think she's fun and kinda dopey, but I do think her family was run through the ringer and it's going to backfire on the communist press in this country.

People ( and by that I mean the 75% of the folks out there who don't care about any other issue than their pet one( don't like to see people's family treated poorly. Go after someones record, go after their character, but when you go after their family....that gets bad quick. Try it with me, I'll stomp a mudhole in yer arse quick!

[Dreamscape]

I think she's fun and kinda dopey, but I do think her family was run through the ringer and it's going to backfire on the communist press in this country.

People ( and by that I mean the 75% of the folks out there who don't care about any other issue than their pet one( don't like to see people's family treated poorly. Go after someones record, go after their character, but when you go after their family....that gets bad quick. Try it with me, I'll stomp a mudhole in yer arse quick!
Her family wasn't attacked, at least by any mainstream sources. The fact that she's self-righteous and her teenage daughter was pregnant is funny and but also relevant. When someone plays up the religious card and then gets burned by it, it's part of the character that person tries to be coming back at her. It's one of those "well, maybe if Governor Palin supported comprehensive sexual education and not an abstinence only message, this might not have happened." That is a valid talking point against a conservative staple.

I think her family was no more put through the ringer than any other family, democrat or republican. Sure, again, if you look for something, you'll probably be undoubted until you find it, no matter what the source. But the "communist" press certainly didn't treat Palin unfairly.

But you should know...people tend to love it when the media go after the family of a politician. Sure, we hate it if someone goes after our family, but a politician's family is fair game. Everybody loves a scandal. This is America, have we met?

[The Rap]

I don't care about Palin's family except when it pertains to hypocrisy when she claims one thing and her family itself is doing the opposite. Personally, I think she and her family should be the stars of a new reality show named "The Trailer Park Palins" which should make all her admirers happy.

[luvdembravos]

I believe that the 2012 election will be much like a normal election. Meaning that I believe that there will not be as high voter turnout as 2008. I don't think that there will be those large number of young new voters and African American voters. I think Obama will still be popular with those two demographics but I think the rate at which they turnout will go down a lot.

I think you're right. The 2008 presidential election was a special election of extraordinary historical significance. People wanted change and Obama represented the "poster boy" of change: Non-Washington insider, black, young, smart, hip, charismatic etc.

But 4 years from now, when people realize that he either couldn't deliver change or at least deliver the change that they wanted or expected, voter enthusiasm will be down and turnout won't be as great.

People will come to their senses that Obama is just another politician. To some degree, it's already sinking in.

[Dreamscape]

And now, for a completely different spin...

Of course people won't vote in the record numbers they did in 2008. Record numbers means record dissatification with the government. That won't be the case in 2012.

[BraveFan]

I don't care about Palin's family except when it pertains to hypocrisy when she claims one thing and her family itself is doing the opposite. Personally, I think she and her family should be the stars of a new reality show named "The Trailer Park Palins" which should make all her admirers happy.

your response is way too predicitable. its basically the copy and past version of anything from the huffington post or daily kos.

[Hobbes]

your response is way too predicitable. its basically the copy and past version of anything from the huffington post or daily kos.
Pot, meet kettle.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

I don't think the Palins have been criticized unfairly. However, I do think they have been treated differently than the Bidens. Joe Biden's youngest daughter has had some run-ins with the law (including pot possession and alleged cocaine use) but it is difficult to find any information about it from the major news outlets. It's tough for me to believe that if one of Sarah Palin's kids appeared in a video snorting cocaine that it wouldn't be running on MSNBC 24 hours a day for a week and a half.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is plenty wrong with Sarah Palin, starting with her delusion that she can get elected President. However, it is hard for me to reconcile the media's apparent double-standard.

Part of it may be that any news about Sarah Palin seemed to grab ratings last fall, regardless of what it was. If that's the reason, that doesn't say much for the sheer objectivity of America's mainstream media.

[JanShan12]

Good point, GGFP. However, I think the difference is that Palin comes across as having a holier than thou attitude. Dream's explanation of why her daughter's pregnancy was such a big deal with the media was exactly right.

[Dreamscape]

The Biden bit...have they actually confirmed that it's Ashley Biden? Last I heard, no, and that the person who made the video and tried to sell it to the highest bidder, had even bought the cocaine, hid the camera, etc...he wasn't getting any bids.

I dunno...I would think if that could be proven to be Ashley Biden, Fox News would be all over that. The fact that they aren't and neither is any of the conservative media outlets even though, at this point, the gentleman who made the tape would take really anything, says a lot to me about the supposed validity of the video.

Now, if Ashley Biden has a pot possession charge in today's media instead of 1999's media, I think we'll see a very different response.

[BraveFan]

Stop attempting to incite conflict.

[The Rap]

Stop attempting to incite conflict.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Has anyone else noticed the minute amount of the monies that have actually been spent from the bail-outs? I understand it's only around 10%. There are some positive changes being made. GM is working hard at regrouping and selling workable assets over to a "new" GM and dumping the bad debt and unproductive operations through bankruptcy. I see this as a move in the right direction. I understand there has been some internet shenanigans suggesting that all the Chrysler dealerships that were closed down belonged to GOP contributors. I also understand there is a genuine lack of veracity in those claims. Besides, I believe more big business outfits would likely kick loot to the GOP if they were kickin' it out at all. In theory, it would better serve them. The reality has been a harsh wake-up call, no?
I look forward to seeing more of the zillions of dollars the government floated to those companies go into use and also to see more people going back to work. Consider this as food for thought, throughout my lifetime the GOP has shouted about reducing taxes on big businesses as the key to a healthy economy. The taxes were reduced but the economy tanked anyway. To a reasonable mind, this suggests that thinking was incorrect. The Dems wanted the breaks to go the people. Well, over the past decades they have received some nice breaks too. It hasn't kept the economy from collapsing. Too many were WalMartting it or buying stuff that didn't serve the economy and we see the results. Neither grand scheme has served the country. With all of the money the government has spread out so far, when will we see more constructive results? As painful as the bailout seems, the results of allowing those giant banks and corporations to go belly-up would've been much more catastophic. Why isn't the president or the congress and senate demanding to see all of that money in action? I think if it is used well we could see things improve greatly by Christmas. If that 90% is still stashed away somewhere, I think legal actions are in order. Any comments?

[bravos4evr]

Hmmm, this is gonna sound partisan and everyone is gonna jump down my throat about it, but discussing said bail outs last night, it was brought to my attention that the a ton of the funds don't become available until right before the next election year.......hmmmmmmm......

[BraveFan]

Hmmm, this is gonna sound partisan and everyone is gonna jump down my throat about it, but discussing said bail outs last night, it was brought to my attention that the a ton of the funds don't become available until right before the next election year.......hmmmmmmm......

ya but with the Dems in charge it will backfire b/c that will be the moment when extent of the failure of the stimilus is exposed.

[Middle Man]

Hmmm, this is gonna sound partisan and everyone is gonna jump down my throat about it, but discussing said bail outs last night, it was brought to my attention that the a ton of the funds don't become available until right before the next election year.......hmmmmmmm......

What do you mean by "next election year?" Presidential election?

[bravos4evr]

What do you mean by "next election year?" Presidential election?

That's what someone told me, that much of the "stimulus" money comes out in 2012. ( didn't mean bailout sorry) maybe I'm wrong, just what someone said to me!

[Middle Man]

That's what someone told me, that much of the "stimulus" money comes out in 2012. ( didn't mean bailout sorry) maybe I'm wrong, just what someone said to me!

First, I'll admit that I haven't been following the details of all the stimulus stuff. But I did see a quote from a democrat the other day who repsonded to criticism that the stimulus wasn't working by saying that we were only 4 months into what is a 2-year stimulus plan. If that is accurate, I'd say that the money isn't being held until shortly before the next presidential election.

[Hobbes]

Plus, most of the infrastructure stimulus money is earmarked for the kind of large projects that can't be started from scratch in just a couple of months, particularly for local-government-type projects. Projects have to be identified, designs and engineering completed and bidding for contractors conducted before they even get to the point where the big chunks of money are being spent. Just because the goverment has money to spend doesn't mean I can just start a major bridge rehabilitation project tomorrow.

[luvdembravos]

Yea, but what happened to all those shovel-ready projects that were promised? (Answer: There really weren’t many of those projects as originally advertised … the Stimulus Package was partly just a ploy to get a number of worthless Democrat pet projects approved that have been sitting on the shelf for years.) Not much thought went into ramming this piece of legislation through Congress … it was a swag (silly wild ass guess) that has failed so far but I’m not surprised. The bill didn’t get much resistance at the time because too many bought Obama’s declaration that we were in the “worst economic crisis since the Great Depression” and Republicans didn’t have the stones or power to put up more of a fight

In January, the Obama administration made a desperate plea that the Stimulus Package had to be passed immediately, or else unemployment would go from 7.6% to as high as 9 percent this year. It’s already at 9.5%. Now the administration (at least Joe Biden) is proclaiming that the administration “guessed wrong” in its assessment of the economy. That “guessing” doesn’t give Americans like me a lot of confidence.

Now some in the Obama administration are making the excuse that our government is slow, cumbersome and inefficient … and that it will take time to inject the money into the economy. Really? I’d be more impressed if those in power would be more like the VP and just admit that the stimulus hasn’t work (and that it won’t have an impact going forward).

Why do I have little confidence in the Stimulus bill? Because it’s being administered by the same U.S. government which allowed the U.S. Postal Service to post a $1.9B loss in the second quarter this year and the same U.S. government that has allowed Amtrak (a government run program) to lose money for 38 years in a row?

With this track record, do you really want the government to run our healthcare system too?

[The Rap]

Well do you think it is fair to go along without doing anything about our health care system leaving 45 million people without any coverage while at the same time health costs continue to baloon causing increased hardship for small businesses to survive?

[Hobbes]

Now the administration (at least Joe Biden) is proclaiming that the administration “guessed wrong” in its assessment of the economy. That “guessing” doesn’t give Americans like me a lot of confidence.

Predicting the economy is always a guess, no matter who is doing the guessing or on which side of the aisle they stand. Even Nobel-prize winning economists are still only guessing when it comes to the economy.

If the government were only allowed to take action when possessing economic certainty, they would never do anything at all.

[bravos4evr]

Predicting the economy is always a guess, no matter who is doing the guessing or on which side of the aisle they stand. Even Nobel-prize winning economists are still only guessing when it comes to the economy.

If the government were only allowed to take action when possessing economic certainty, they would never do anything at all.


That's exactly what I want govt to do in regards ot the economy. Nothing at all. Because it can't do ANYTHING AT ALL !!!! The govt cannot change a chaotic system by throwing worthless programs at it. Economies are cyclical , chaotic and everchanging. They must be allowed to run their course and over time, ( or perhaps another world war like what stopped the depression) the economy will go right back to it's old way of charging forward.

Govt should leave that stuff alone. But politicians are more interested in getting re-elected than they are in being smart.

[BraveFan]

Well do you think it is fair to go along without doing anything about our health care system leaving 45 million people without any coverage while at the same time health costs continue to baloon causing increased hardship for small businesses to survive?

If your going to insure 45million more how are you going to get more doctors ? B/c you can't just use the same amount of Docs and then add 45 million more patients.

[luvdembravos]

Predicting the economy is always a guess, no matter who is doing the guessing or on which side of the aisle they stand. Even Nobel-prize winning economists are still only guessing when it comes to the economy.

If the government were only allowed to take action when possessing economic certainty, they would never do anything at all.

Of course there's no crystal ball and guessing is involved but I would've prefer more analysis and debate before Congress rammed the Stimulus bill through both Houses last January. Heck, most Congressman didn't even read what they were approving.

[Dreamscape]

Truth is, when circumstances are dire, congressmen will vote whatever pressed to. Look at the Patriot Act. You can't tell me had they actually read that act, most congressmen would have voted yay.