The ChopNation Political Discussion Thread (keep it civil please)

[bravos4evr]

Coffee Johnny? " No Thanks!!"

[The Rap]

Please tell me you were being sarcastic with these two consecutive posts.

Also, I continue to hear about how the Congressional Budget Office projects a reduction to the federal deficit with the implementation of the new health care reforms. Can anyone explain to me where these saving will occur, or point me to a layman's explanation somewhere on the web? While I disagree with all this government intervention on philosophical grounds, I would like to understand how it all breaks down.

Thanks in advance.



I can't believe I am explaining this.

The reason I asked is, in your first post you say that "all (he does) is post one provocative post after another looking to incite a fight", and in your very next post you make what can only be considered a provocative post, then tell people to "bite you" if they disagree.

I could only assume you were trying to be ironic, but I guess the only guy on whom the irony was lost was you. Which is in itself ironic.

Also, by telling me to "kneel for the insurance companies", you not only mischaracterize my motives, you attempt to reject my argument out of hand so you don't have to deal with specific issues. Do you really think I disagree with the passage of this legislation because I somehow have a soft spot in my heart for health care insurance industry?

I watched an interview with Nancy Ann DeParle, who you referenced with your list of issues the law addresses above, and she says that insurance prices for the uninsured will be lower than before the law for two reasons. The first is because of "the competition in the new marketplace, it will help drive costs down". The second is because of newly introduced tax credits. I am looking for a source that explains these two reasons in detail, and am unable to find anything.

No problem between us ok? The easiest way to see prices going down is to understand that the health insurance companies have basically been put on notice to straighten out or the public option is on the way. Anyone against health reform would be defined as pro status quo and thus a supporter of health insurance companies. I worked for insurance companies and believe me they give a rats ass about the public unless it has any chance of adversely affecting their profit. So in addition 32 million people will now be added to coverage and the goal is to create a marketplace where people and businesses can choose the best plan for them and have the same benefits like the Congress has. Tax credits will be given to businesses to help them pay for the health coverage of their employees. When I sold insurance policies over 30 years ago I remember selling a fantastic policy called "CHIP" from the Prudential. I think it cost young family (a man his wife and two young boys) about 600 a year. The price tripled withing three years and the dude was screaming at me. So I told him I received a call in the first year of CHIP coming out from a high executive in our home office asking me how come a young guy like me was leading the country in CHIP sales. I told him I sold it from the heart and then told him the story of my mom collapsing and remaining paralyzed and brain damged and destroying the family simply because it happened before there was unlimited major medical coverage available. But then I began asking him a lot of questions based on my long held beliefs that health insurance should be provided by the government as it is a right and not a privlige and he hung up after a quick goodbye. True story.

[The Rap]

By the way I think y'all misunderstood my post about Pelosi. It is the incredible achievement of getting this passed that will make her go down as one of the greatest if not greatest speakers of all time. This doesnlt mean I think she is great or not but the hatred of the right against her and the vicious names she is called achieves only one thing; getting those of my ilk getting nehond her more strongly.

[Dreamscape]

Let's hold back the hyperbolic "greatest ever" tags in general. While Pelosi simply can't be the demon spawn some make her, she will not go down as the greatest anything. What was passed took too much time to make her the greatest anything. Now, it can be said that parties are simply more combative than they once were, but if Pelosi was to be considered great, we'd be approaching the first year anniversary of this bill passing.

[The Rap]

Different stroke for different folks and no big deal anyway. Fact is that the House Democrats love her and are very loyal to her.

[I Come in Peace]

Apparently the Dems left out coverage for young adults and children when it comes to pre-existing conditions. Heck of a job Dems!!!

[The Rap]

No they didn't. Prove it. Also, the latest Gallup Poll taken after it became law shows the American people in favor of the health reform by 49-40.

[I Come in Peace]

No they didn't. Prove it. Also, the latest Gallup Poll taken after it became law shows the American people in favor of the health reform by 49-40.

Here is the story from the Associated Press

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jYnajhWrPEXihcCrpRNfUKN7rN-AD9EKTKIG0

[I Come in Peace]

I'm really tired of people saying those opposed to the healthcare bill are against providing insurance to those without insurance. I want to get those people without insurance but not this way and not bay all this gov't intervention and spending. Those opposed to the bill want everyone to have insurance but just didn't like this bill. It is the typical liberal moral argument they use on every issue. If you don't want welfare you want the poor to die, if you don't believe in food stamps you want the poor to starve. It is really insulting to those who oppose this bill.

The left also claims that the right is the pocket of the isurance companies yet the left pushed for the mandate and that mandate is going to benefit the insurance companies more than it will benefit anyone.

[Chris_Moderato]

The left also claims that the right is the pocket of the isurance companies yet the left pushed for the mandate and that mandate is going to benefit the insurance companies more than it will benefit anyone.

The left most assuredly did not push for that mandate. The left pushed for a public option.

This is why it is amusing to hear Obama referred to as a socialist, a left-wing President, and a supporter of a government takeover. In fact, most folks on the left that I have heard and/or talked to support beginning the health care reform debate with a single-payer system and going from there.

[I Come in Peace]

The left most assuredly did not push for that mandate. The left pushed for a public option.

This is why it is amusing to hear Obama referred to as a socialist, a left-wing President, and a supporter of a government takeover. In fact, most folks on the left that I have heard and/or talked to support beginning the health care reform debate with a single-payer system and going from there.

Obama himself said he supported a single payer, the reason Obama didn't push for it is b/c he couldn't get that close to done. I bet he couldn't have gotten 30 Senators to support a Single Payer. The Public Option wasn't pushed for b/c he didn't have the votes for that either. Obama's ideology is that of a Socialist but he just didn't have the capacity to push either the Single Payer or Public Option through.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I must admit reading some of these last few pages got me laughing pretty good..."What does ICIP stand for?" LMAO!

"Nick! Heath! Jarrod! There's a fire in the barn!"

[The Rap]

"Instant Convoluted Ideas Presented?"

[Chris_Moderato]

"Instant Convoluted Ideas Presented?"

Unnecessary.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Unnecessary.


Ditto your comment, Chris....:D

[bravos4evr]

I must admit reading some of these last few pages got me laughing pretty good..."What does ICIP stand for?" LMAO!

"Nick! Heath! Jarrod! There's a fire in the barn!"

what the hell did I do this time?

[The Rap]

I don't even know how many times I have been accused here of not being able to take a joke but what I wrote was such an obvious one and this is the reaction I get?

[The Rap]

FYI; David Frum, forner Bush speechwriter and adviser, was fired today from the conservative think tank he worked for simply because he criticized the conservatives for their behavior of just saying no to everything. Unreal.

[Dreamscape]

FYI; David Frum, forner Bush speechwriter and adviser, was fired today from the conservative think tank he worked for simply because he criticized the conservatives for their behavior of just saying no to everything. Unreal.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/03/aei_hits_david_frum_where_it_h.html

I kind of like the irony of the firing. Because of the health care reform, getting fired at 40 for something silly as "we don't like what you have to say" will keep you from losing health care coverage.

[The Rap]

True but it is indicative of the growing schism within the Republican Party.

[Chris_Moderato]

I don't even know how many times I have been accused here of not being able to take a joke but what I wrote was such an obvious one and this is the reaction I get?

Oh, I think we all knew it was a joke. It was just stupid.

[I Come in Peace]

True but it is indicative of the growing schism within the Republican Party.

There is no real schism these morons like Frum have no real role in the GOP. Frum is one of these guys that cares more about Republican power than true Conservatism. I'm tired of Party hacks on both sides. Democrat / Republican I don't care I want someone with true conservative Principles.

[Dreamscape]

There is no real schism these morons like Frum have no real role in the GOP. Frum is one of these guys that cares more about Republican power than true Conservatism. I'm tired of Party hacks on both sides. Democrat / Republican I don't care I want someone with true conservative Principles.
Well, something should be said for recognizing the signs on the wall and rolling with the punches as opposed to not trying to be part of something that will pass anyway. "True conservative principles" in this case only means "not accepting the obvious change that is to come." Frum is hardly a moron. He pointed out what I think is becoming a truth. That the Republican Party was working for Fox News, not the other way around. And he was fired because of it.

You don't have a monopoly on conservative principles. Frum only two years ago convinced himself that Palin could learn to become President as the Vice President had McCain won. The man is obviously on the right. He was simply fired because he had some comments about the right that no one seems willing to refute, just anxious to make the comments go away.

Maybe since he was born in Canada and didn't become a US citizen until 2007, he doesn't feel some sort of weird hatred toward health care.

[I Come in Peace]

Obama getting a major endorsement on his passing of Health Care Reform.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Cuban-leader-applauds-US-apf-124808403.html?x=0&.v=1

[The Rap]

Posting that Lavelle will have the opposite effect than you intended. Fidel applauds health care reform? Well address the fact that Cuba is considered very high in the rankings of best health care providing countries so maybe he knows what he is talking about? Or have you been brainwashed into one of those who have a kneejerk reaction as soon as you hear the words "Cuba" or "Castro?"

[The Rap]

There is no real schism these morons like Frum have no real role in the GOP. Frum is one of these guys that cares more about Republican power than true Conservatism. I'm tired of Party hacks on both sides. Democrat / Republican I don't care I want someone with true conservative Principles.

I really hope you guys will stick to your "true conservative principles." Even Jeb Bush said yesterday that this country is "center leaning right" so stick to them and never win an election.

[Dreamscape]

Obama getting a major endorsement on his passing of Health Care Reform.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Cuban-leader-applauds-US-apf-124808403.html?x=0&.v=1
What possessed you to post this?

[The Rap]

What do you think possessed him?

[I Come in Peace]

I really hope you guys will stick to your "true conservative principles." Even Jeb Bush said yesterday that this country is "center leaning right" so stick to them and never win an election.

Considering how far left the Dems have gone I am fully confident a more conservative Republican Party can win.

[I Come in Peace]

What do you think possessed him?

Question really is why did you fall for it?

[Dreamscape]

Question really is why did you fall for it?
So, what you are saying is you are simply try to bait people into fights. Yeah, that's a good thing to go with. You may as well not post here anymore if that's why you come here. Shape up.

[The Rap]

My point exactly.

[The Rap]

Oh and the Democrats went so far left? Hmmm saving businesses like the auto industry, saving all the banks, still in Iraq, increased involvement in Afghanistan, man you have no idea what going left really mean. Try pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and pay for the health bill for a start. But Obama didn't do that.

[I Come in Peace]

Oh and the Democrats went so far left? Hmmm saving businesses like the auto industry, saving all the banks, still in Iraq, increased involvement in Afghanistan, man you have no idea what going left really mean. Try pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and pay for the health bill for a start. But Obama didn't do that.

Using gov't funds to take over companies is liberal in my view but I could see where you would think that is just saving rich bankers and such. The left and right hate the bailouts for two seperate reasons. The left hates wall-street and the right hates Gov't. So politicially it is stupid for all politicians b/c everyone hates it. As far as Afghanistan, you do remember Obama campaigned on Afghinistan being the "right war" and wanting to fight it? I have actually complimented Obama for that decision and that of staying in Iraq. I think his biggest problem is that he doesn't believe in letting anything just happen, meaning he thinks there needs to be some gov't intervention. Economically speaking it is good if sometimes you let things work themselves out. By trying to prevent any down times you just cause more problems.

[luvdembravos]

So, what you are saying is you are simply try to bait people into fights. Yeah, that's a good thing to go with. You may as well not post here anymore if that's why you come here. Shape up.

My point exactly.

I love the way liberals try to hush individuals that don't agree with them. :thumbsdown:

BTW, no one, and I mean absolutely no one around here has baited more people into fights around here the past 5 years as much as The Rap. Want proof? Just band him for 10, 20 or 30 days and see how quiet the Political Forum gets.

[luvdembravos]

Try pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and pay for the health bill for a start. But Obama didn't do that.

Oh, I thought the health care bill was paid for according to Obama and the CBO. LOL... not even someone like you believed that line of BS.

[I Come in Peace]

So, what you are saying is you are simply try to bait people into fights. Yeah, that's a good thing to go with. You may as well not post here anymore if that's why you come here. Shape up.

Not at all, I was just allowing Michael the chance to make my point of the link between the left and it's support of Castro.

[Dreamscape]

I love the way liberals try to hush individuals that don't agree with them. :thumbsdown:

BTW, no one, and I mean absolutely no one around here has baited more people into fights around here the past 5 years as much as The Rap. Want proof? Just band him for 10, 20 or 30 days and see how quiet the Political Forum gets.
I don't try to hush you, luv. How many times do we agree? About anything, really. I know it's sort of sarcastic, but I guess I have to be extra careful about the idea that I'm only going against Peaceful Child over there because he's a conservative.

How does the fish bait the fisher again?

[Dreamscape]

Not at all, I was just allowing Michael the chance to make my point of the link between the left and it's support of Castro.
One person makes your point about a link between the left (a massive group) and Castro.

I call sample size problems with this one.

[The Rap]

I love the way liberals try to hush individuals that don't agree with them. :thumbsdown:

BTW, no one, and I mean absolutely no one around here has baited more people into fights around here the past 5 years as much as The Rap. Want proof? Just band him for 10, 20 or 30 days and see how quiet the Political Forum gets.

I think it is amazing how much crap they let you get away with. You must have been so proud today when it was Palin coming to Arizona to save McCain's ass. Are you also proud of the threats being made against government officials doing their job?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

As odd as it may sound, there was a sliver of sanity in one of Lavelle's posts. Okay, now that you're all revived here's what I mean...he said something along the lines of the left and right hating bailouts but for different reasons. Stop. The possibility that there may be reasons that matter isn't even important. What is important for each one of you who have a pronounced lean to either side is to re-read that statement. They both hate the bailouts but....
The point is that the vast majority on either side may actually hate the bailouts, for whatever reason. The fact of the matter is, what difference did it make? If none or nearly none of the lawmakers wanted the bailouts, how did they get done? There may be no clearer evidence to support just how meaningless all of this chatter is between the two political factions. Nobody wanted it but it "just happened?" The real question may be who was paid off and by whom? Your next consideration should be "Why do I value any of these greasy-palmed swindlers?" No matter what party or which direction they lean, they are doing little more than usurping their positions and helping destroy this nation.

[luvdembravos]

I think it is amazing how much crap they let you get away with.

Please support your claim with examples.

You must have been so proud today when it was Palin coming to Arizona to save McCain's ass.

I didn't know she went to AZ to support McCain and more importantly, I don't care. Both of them are yesterday's news to most everyone except you and the news stations you've been watching.

Are you also proud of the threats being made against government officials doing their job?

It happens all the time, on both sides, so stop pretending it's something new. Thing is, the liberal news media only reports it as a "news story" when the violence is directed against liberal politicians. "Those crazy, gun-toting tea partiers are at it again." Personally, I hope the MSM and Obama keep mocking the tea party movement, Fox News, etc. There are plenty of people who are mad as hell right now and Obama's mockery is just fueling the flames. For someone who campaigned as a uniter, Obama is the most devisive president I've ever seen.

[luvdembravos]

Oh, one more thing about violence and protesting. The violence aimed at Dems this week was reported as a terrible and sad thing for America. But when violence is aimed at Republican politicians or other conservatives, the MSM usually reports this violence as being "justified." For example, how many times did we see Bush burning in effigy during war protests? Could you imagine the stink the MSM would make if one person burned Obama in effigy? Racists! Also in recent years, several politicians who supported the war were attacked or had their HQs attacked but those acts of violence were seldom if ever reported by the MSM. Why not?

[Hobbes]

When was Bush ever burned in effigy by Americans?

[Dreamscape]

The return of the MSM argument. How fun.

Wait, I think I used fun wrong.

[Dreamscape]

For someone who campaigned as a uniter, Obama is the most devisive president I've ever seen.
Were you asleep from 2001-2008? Not to steal Rap's thunder, but that's just ridiculous. Obama has done more to try to gain conservative support, but has been faced with conservatives unwilling to budge an inch. I think you went in a hyperbolic tailspin with that comment...you probably didn't mean to steal Rap's thunder either.

[The Rap]

Prove the level of violence on the part of the liberals against Bush and other Republicans. But you know what? I don't need to discuss this crap with someone like you anymore especially when nearly one in four Republicans believe Obama is the anti-Christ.

[The Rap]

Oh and the perfect exaple is the very post that asked for it. Lie upon lie. Heck, you should go on Glen beck's show.

[luvdembravos]

When was Bush ever burned in effigy by Americans?

Google it.

[The Rap]

I just did and nearly every time it was in a foreign country. The only time it happened here was right after an election, not during a war protest

[luvdembravos]

Obama has done more to try to gain conservative support, but has been faced with conservatives unwilling to budge an inch.

Now that's funny.

[Dreamscape]

Now that's funny.
I do try, buddy.

By the way, I also find this funny. You told Rap to support his claims with examples only to support your claims with a "google it."

[The Rap]

Which I did and it showed me that he is the version of Karl Rove here.

[luvdembravos]

I do try, buddy.

By the way, I also find this funny. You told Rap to support his claims with examples only to support your claims with a "google it."

I watched a show the other night that showed plenty of protests (with Bush burning in effigy) right here in America.

BTW, Bush was such a failure from 2001 to 2008 that he managed to get reelected in 2004. Hmmm? I guess the majority of Americans were asleep back then or maybe just maybe, many folks don't see things the way you do.

[Dreamscape]

I watched a show the other night that showed plenty of protests (with Bush burning in effigy) right here in America.

BTW, Bush was such a failure from 2001 to 2008 that he managed to get reelected in 2004. Hmmm? I guess the majority of Americans were asleep back then or maybe just maybe, many folks don't see things the way you do.
So, if Obama gets re-elected in 2012, all the people you say are angry with him weren't really angry?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Quick! Any of you guys in this latest political circle jerk tell us! How is what's happening now any different than what was happening pre-Obama? The nation's in turmoil, the nation's divided, our "leaders" are doing nothing more than politics as usual or stonewalling and you're all still beating the same dead horses, just from the opposite side. Instead of people on the far left raisin' Hell about Dubya and both questionable elections I'm hearing Obama has no birth certificate from the far right.

Don't you get it? As much as the situation has changed, we're still in the same sinking boat! Those elected scoundrels do nothing more than sit back and let the allegedly politically involved citizens duke it out on websites, tv, radio and in the papers. All the while those people who are fighting so hard to build up or prop up their side seem oblivious to the fact that no matter which side supposedly has the upper hand, nothing changes.
I'm going for a beer.....

[I Come in Peace]

Prove the level of violence on the part of the liberals against Bush and other Republicans. But you know what? I don't need to discuss this crap with someone like you anymore especially when nearly one in four Republicans believe Obama is the anti-Christ.

How about the 3 SEIU thugs that were arrested for beating a black protestor late last year? They also called him the "N" word whild doing so.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Glad to see you're onboard, Lavell.......

[bravos4evr]

Louis CK (my present time fave comedian) has a great bit about white people saying The "N" word...(and I mean the"N" word ,not the actual word itself, they sometimes use air qutoes).

He says, " Look yer getting away with saying it by making me say it in my head! You didn't have to say anything and yer makin me say it, cuz you say " the "N"word" and I think, oh he means "******" so now I'm the evil racist bastard for saying it in my head!! Don't say that sanctimonious BS anymore, you say the word and you take responsibility for it!"

it goes on a bit more, but it makes me laugh so hard every time!

[The Rap]

How about the 3 SEIU thugs that were arrested for beating a black protestor late last year? They also called him the "N" word whild doing so.

What does that have to do with any of this? I can go back in history to all the lyuncings in the South. Does that prove anything.

Oh and luv, Bush won again in 2004 simply because of Kerry's ineptitude, and fake bin-Laden threats scaring the hell out of the American people. Besides, I never claimed the American people to be very bright anyway.

[Chris_Moderato]

What does that have to do with any of this? I can go back in history to all the lyuncings in the South. Does that prove anything.

Oh and luv, Bush won again in 2004 simply because of Kerry's ineptitude, and fake bin-Laden threats scaring the hell out of the American people. Besides, I never claimed the American people to be very bright anyway.

This man speaks for himself and only himself.

His views do not represent the views of this website, the administration, or the vast majority of liberals and progressives nationwide.

That is all.

Carry on.

[I Come in Peace]

What does that have to do with any of this? I can go back in history to all the lyuncings in the South. Does that prove anything.


it has to do with me answering your question about liberals attacking a conservative and i gave an example. This happened last summer and you are comparing it to things that happened decades ago. i could add the gun shot at Eric Cantor's office last week but i guess that is too long ago.

[Dreamscape]

it has to do with me answering your question about liberals attacking a conservative and i gave an example. This happened last summer and you are comparing it to things that happened decades ago. i could add the gun shot at Eric Cantor's office last week but i guess that is too long ago.
Please show how that gunshot had anything to do with politics. Police seem to be convinced it was more random than anything. Not the hardest thing to imagine in Richmond. In fact, police believe "that a bullet was fired into the air and struck the window in a downward direction, landing on the floor about a foot from the window. The round struck with enough force to break the windowpane, but did not penetrate the window blinds."

I mean, as long as we want the truth and everything.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Isn't it a shame how easily we accept "random shooting?" Awhile back, I came out of the local charity hospital after delivering some slides to the lab and found a .45 bullet on the ground by the van I use. It was flattened a bit, which suggested it had been fired up in the air and fallen to earth or it may have been fired at the wall of the building where I was parked. I picked it up and still have it.
Reckon I should've filed a police report on someone attempting to murder me?

To seriously raise this type of incident as a political issue simply diminishes one's credibility that much more. Besides, the actions of a few jackballs aren't representative of the entire group on either side. Just like raising the issue of lynchings in the South as if that's the only place they occurred. If I didn't know better, I'd think that type of talk was more than a bit prejudiced. Besides, if you wanted to make a point about racism or any kind of actions driven by bias, why go any further than Boston and their racial record? 135 years after the Civil War and they still get bad marks!

[The Rap]

The first time I saw and heard Cantor I liked him and thought finally an intelligent young Republican for a change. Since then he has gone downhill to me because he is nothing more than a dressed up extremist who is also credited for changing John Behner who was always more moderate than he shows today. Cantor wouldn't know the truth if he tripped over it.

[The Rap]

Fred, Bill Maher said that on his show last night. How interesting that a "random shooting" is so easily accepted in today's society.

[luvdembravos]

So, if Obama gets re-elected in 2012, all the people you say are angry with him weren't really angry?

No, that's not what I'm saying. If Obama gets elected in 2012 then the people have spoken. There still will be plenty of angry people but not enough to bounce Obama from the presidency. But as of today, I feel pretty good about Obama's chances of being a one-term president. Things could change (e.g., the economy could improve tremendously in 2012) but as of right now, I'd say there's less than a 50-50 chance that he would be re-elected. He's just not that good.

[luvdembravos]

Oh and luv, Bush won again in 2004 simply because of Kerry's ineptitude, and fake bin-Laden threats scaring the hell out of the American people. Besides, I never claimed the American people to be very bright anyway.

LOL. To you and your protege', Dreamscape, Dems only lose when they have a poor candidate.

[luvdembravos]

Besides, I never claimed the American people to be very bright anyway.

Oops? There is plenty of time between typing and posting to reconsider this kind of post.

[Dreamscape]

No, that's not what I'm saying. If Obama gets elected in 2012 then the people have spoken. There still will be plenty of angry people but not enough to bounce Obama from the presidency. But as of today, I feel pretty good about Obama's chances of being a one-term president. Things could change (e.g., the economy could improve tremendously in 2012) but as of right now, I'd say there's less than a 50-50 chance that he would be re-elected. He's just not that good.
I felt the same way about Bush. In fact, I think I hated Bush more than you could ever hate Obama. And as much as I hated Bush, I remember how reluctant I was to vote for Kerry. I doubt many people voted for Kerry with the feeling he would do a significantly better job. He was merely the Bush alternative. If Obama is as bad to conservatives as Bush was to liberals back in 2004, the Republicans will still have to run a credible challenger. If they threw out, say, Palin or Huckabee, they will still lose.

So before you hatch your eggs and say Obama is a one-term president without a challenger, I would wait to see who his opponent is. Remember...even Clinton, with a million scandals, beat Dole (who is a pretty good, likable guy). Granted, the economy was booming and the Republicans in the house were making Clinton look pretty good, but the incumbent always has the advantage. Even when it's the highest profile position in the world and not a simple house race, having four years of free campaigning is hugely helpful. And I have yet to see a credible challenger come to the forefront of the Fox News-owned Republican Party. The ones getting the push are the far right darlings, not the moderate right that really would provide Obama a true challenge in 2012. Mitt Romney is, sadly, their best hope right now. But again, that can change.

Mostly unrelated, I still doubt the House will go right in 2010. The Republicans will gain several positions and even a few Senate positions, but I just can't see that much of a radical shift. But that has happened all but twice since World War II. The President's party always suffers in the midterms. There are a lot of reasons for that, but mostly, it's because when the winning presidential candidate is on the ticket, his party mates in swing or vulnerable house districts can ride his coat tails to election. When that candidate isn't there, that boost is gone. Now, granted, there is buyer remorse and all that jazz, but most of the time, that is what happens. We'll see how many Democratic positions are lost this November, but just being the alternative doesn't mean the world. In 1994, Republicans had The Contract with America. Right now, their lone statement seems to be "Hey, we don't like this health care thingy and please forget that we were in power when this whole economic mess began." That's not going to be enough. I expect a suppressed voter turnout and Republicans need to get the vote out to get big changes.

And I am no one's protege. You can whip one liners very well, no one will question that. But lately, that's all it has been.

[I Come in Peace]

Did anyone else see the Rubio / Christ debate this morning on Fox? Rubio whipped the floor with him, somebody should tell Christ he is running for the Republican NOT Democrat nomination.

Dream: Your totally correct the GOP must nominate a viable candidate. I don't see Huck going far and I'm convinced Palin isn't going to run. I'm not a fan of Romney and believe it will be someone else but even someone like Romney is much more viable than Kerry was.

[Dreamscape]

I'm not a fan of Romney and believe it will be someone else but even someone like Romney is much more viable than Kerry was.
You might be right. But I am convinced the Republican Party, as it is, wouldn't put forward a candidate like Romney. They want their candidate the evangelicals can fall in love with and Romney is not that guy, no matter how many times he tries to repackage himself as the this true right conservative guy.

But he's playing the McCain playbook that helped McCain get the nomination. "Look at me, I don't believe in evolution, think gays marrying is an abomination, and Jesus is my homeboy." No one looked more out of place than McCain begging at the religious right at Liberty University a few years ago.

The biggest problem is Romney, like Kerry, is a massive flipflopper. Mandates are great, I hate mandates. This health care is great for Massachusetts, this health care is bad for the country. I'm not sure he's much more viable, but I could be wrong.

[I Come in Peace]

You might be right. But I am convinced the Republican Party, as it is, wouldn't put forward a candidate like Romney. They want their candidate the evangelicals can fall in love with and Romney is not that guy, no matter how many times he tries to repackage himself as the this true right conservative guy.

But he's playing the McCain playbook that helped McCain get the nomination. "Look at me, I don't believe in evolution, think gays marrying is an abomination, and Jesus is my homeboy." No one looked more out of place than McCain begging at the religious right at Liberty University a few years ago.

The biggest problem is Romney, like Kerry, is a massive flipflopper. Mandates are great, I hate mandates. This health care is great for Massachusetts, this health care is bad for the country. I'm not sure he's much more viable, but I could be wrong.

I actually disagree with this, I think the GOP has gotten back to more economic conservatism. Just look a the tea partiers you can criticize them for many things but they aren't a bunch of bible thumpers, there message is pretty clear.

[Dreamscape]

But it remains to be seen if the Republican Party has shed itself the grip the evangelicals have. One thing evangelicals can do is raise money and that is power. If the Republicans run an economic pragmatist with charisma, yes, Obama is in trouble. But until I see proof otherwise, I truly don't think the Republicans are to that point yet. It's still the party that believes debate-worthy questions are "Who here believes in intelligent design over evolution?"

[The Rap]

The Tea Party guys are into Palin more than anyone else and I hope she runs for Presdient because the only people she really appeals to are the right wing nut jobs and she would lose by a landslide. This discussion is exactly why I think what Luv has been saying over and over is pure wishful thinking and bs because the Republicans don't have anyone who could run against Obama. BTW, Lavelle, I watched the Crist/Rubio debate and there is no way Rubio made him look bad. The only reason you say so is because you agree with what rubio was saying while I look at him as another of the right wing guys just trotted out because they know how to mouth the things that will turn that base on.

[I Come in Peace]

For all these threats made by the Tea Partiers there have been no arrest that I am aware of. A man however has been arrested for threatening Eric Cantor. This moron did it on youtube so he can't hide and say it wasn't him. Of course this will be ignored by the media but they will talk about accusations of the Tea Partiers where there is no evidence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/29/norman-leboon-arrested-th_n_517246.html

[I Come in Peace]

The Tea Party guys are into Palin more than anyone else and I hope she runs for Presdient because the only people she really appeals to are the right wing nut jobs and she would lose by a landslide. This discussion is exactly why I think what Luv has been saying over and over is pure wishful thinking and bs because the Republicans don't have anyone who could run against Obama. BTW, Lavelle, I watched the Crist/Rubio debate and there is no way Rubio made him look bad. The only reason you say so is because you agree with what rubio was saying while I look at him as another of the right wing guys just trotted out because they know how to mouth the things that will turn that base on.

Well the two are running for the Republican nomination so their appeal to me is much more important than their appeal to you. All Christ did was talk about Rubio using campaign funds for his own personal wealth but that had already been discredited and Christ resort to that on about everyone question asked even when Wallace was asking him about his own positions.

Palin isn't going to run, she is going to make as much $$ as possible in other ways and I can't blame her at all.

[Dreamscape]

From what politifact said about Rubio/Christ, all they did was lie about one another's records for the entire debate.

[Chris_Moderato]

For the record, the man's name is spelled C-R-I-S-T, as opposed to C-H-R-I-S-T.

[Dreamscape]

I prefer to not offend ICIP by misspelling his lord and savior's name, Chris. Try to be more considerate.

[Chris_Moderato]

I prefer to not offend ICIP by misspelling his lord and savior's name, Chris. Try to be more considerate.

Fair enough.

[bravos4evr]

man this forum has gotten nitpicky and crappy....

[Dreamscape]

man this forum has gotten nitpicky and crappy....
A comma should really be between "man" and "this."

[bravos4evr]

lmfao!!!! you a-hole!!! ahahahahahaha

[luvdembravos]

Republicans will take back the house in November but not because they have any great ideas or possess super candidates. They'll still have their share of dolts but at least they'll be Anti-Big Government, Anti-Obama dolts.

Unless the economy improves drastically, anti-Obama voters are going to turn out in droves this November. It doesn't matter who runs against the Dems because people will be voting against Obama and those Dems who have been blindly following Obama and Pelosi.

Just think of it as a reverse situation from 2008 when everyone hated Bush. Any smuck could've defeated McCain...and it turns out a real smuck did.

[Hobbes]

Republicans will take back the house in November but not because they have any great ideas or possess super candidates. They'll still have their share of dolts but at least they'll be Anti-Big Government, Anti-Obama dolts.
At least that is what they'll claim as long as the wind is blowing that way.

[Chris_Moderato]

Republicans will take back the house in November but not because they have any great ideas or possess super candidates. They'll still have their share of dolts but at least they'll be Anti-Big Government, Anti-Obama dolts.

Unless the economy improves drastically, anti-Obama voters are going to turn out in droves this November. It doesn't matter who runs against the Dems because people will be voting against Obama and those Dems who have been blindly following Obama and Pelosi.

Just think of it as a reverse situation from 2008 when everyone hated Bush. Any smuck could've defeated McCain...and it turns out a real smuck did.

Jeez, tell us how you really feel.

Washington Post/ABC poll (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_032810.html?sid=ST2010032804111) released today showed some interesting information. I pulled the results that address your claims. There are a lot of other findings in there, some you (and other conservatives) might find reassuring or interesting.

If the election for the U.S. House of Representatives in November were being held today, would you vote for the Generic Democratic candidate or the Generic Republican candidate in your congressional district?

Democratic Candidate- 47%
Republican Candidate- 44%

How enthusiastic are you about voting for the Democrat/Republican in your Congressional district this year?

Democrat- 74%
Republican- 76%

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Republicans will take back the house in November but not because they have any great ideas or possess super candidates. They'll still have their share of dolts but at least they'll be Anti-Big Government, Anti-Obama dolts.

Unless the economy improves drastically, anti-Obama voters are going to turn out in droves this November. It doesn't matter who runs against the Dems because people will be voting against Obama and those Dems who have been blindly following Obama and Pelosi.

Just think of it as a reverse situation from 2008 when everyone hated Bush. Any smuck could've defeated McCain...and it turns out a real smuck did.

Smuck? What? You been watchin' Porky's again? Instead of schmuck, I think the better choice there would've been schlemiel. In this case, the schmucks lost the election! :D

[Dreamscape]

I like the question "Do you think the country is headed in the right direction or do you feel things have gone off track?" Since 1973, rarely has the country been headed in the right direction. Weird.

49% of those polled would not vote to show support for/against Obama in the House districts. Also pretty interesting since all the "MSM" can babble about.

Either way, these very advanced numbers paint a picture of a current United States that doesn't seem to care anymore for Republicans than Democrats. While the favorables for the Democrat Party have slipped, the unfavorables for the Republicans seem to be rising again. I would say that the Republicans are still a good deal away from claiming the House in November. They need to get cracking on some new ideas or something. Just getting health care passed was a boost for Obama. The Republicans badly need an answer.

[Chris_Moderato]

I like the question "Do you think the country is headed in the right direction or do you feel things have gone off track?" Since 1973, rarely has the country been headed in the right direction. Weird.

49% of those polled would not vote to show support for/against Obama in the House districts. Also pretty interesting since all the "MSM" can babble about.

Either way, these very advanced numbers paint a picture of a current United States that doesn't seem to care anymore for Republicans than Democrats. While the favorables for the Democrat Party have slipped, the unfavorables for the Republicans seem to be rising again. I would say that the Republicans are still a good deal away from claiming the House in November. They need to get cracking on some new ideas or something. Just getting health care passed was a boost for Obama. The Republicans badly need an answer.

Agreed. John Kerry showed you can't just rely on perceived hatred of the incumbent President to carry you to power.

[luvdembravos]

A Washington Post/ABC poll is certainly one that will be unbiased. The margin of error has to be something like +/-10% ;)

You guys go ahead and believe what you want. Recent elections in Virginia, NJ and especially Massachusetts give me enough proof that the country doesn't want Obama's "change."

[Chris_Moderato]

A Washington Post/ABC poll is certainly one that will be unbiased. The margin of error has to be something like +/-10% ;)

You guys go ahead and believe what you want. Recent elections in Virginia, NJ and especially Massachusetts give me enough proof that the country doesn't want Obama's "change."

The old sarcastic "polls are unbiased" option, eh? Kind of saw that one coming. Ah well. I'm not here to convince you or anyone else of anything.

I am curious to know if you looked over the poll results at all. My hunch is you didn't, because there are a lot of results in there that would probably make you feel a-okay.

[luvdembravos]

I only gave it a cursory glance. I'll admit that whenever I see a poll administered by the Washington Post, NYT or some other liberal media outlet, I usually discount it. I'm sure some of you feel the same way when you see a Fox News poll.

But polls are just polls and we have discussed the issue to ad nauseam around here in the past. What counts is how many of the people who were polled actually turn out to vote in November...and right now, I'm thinking the anti-Obama folks are more energized than the pro-Obama camp. We'll see.

[Chris_Moderato]

I only gave it a cursory glance. I'll admit that whenever I see a poll administered by the Washington Post, NYT or some other liberal media outlet, I usually discount it. I'm sure some of you feel the same way when you see a Fox News poll.

But polls are just polls and we have discussed the issue to ad nauseam around here in the past. What counts is how many of the people who were polled actually turn out to vote in November...and right now, I'm thinking the anti-Obama folks are more energized than the pro-Obama camp. We'll see.

Fair enough.

[The Rap]

One of my very closest friends lives in Texas and in fact not that far from W's ranch. He called me last night and we discussed whether or not Obama was a liberal. I said the right wing always try to portray him that way but ask yourself this; based on what he has done with Afghanistan and Iraq and what he has done for the banks on Wall Street and Big Business like the auto industry in addition to appointing Ray Hood and attempting to appoint Judd Gregg to his cabinet, is he really that liberal?

It was an interesting conversation. But what really got me was this; he said he has been inundated by friends in Texas with email after email blasting Obama. Now that was okay and within their rights. But now those same emails have been filled with blatant racism and vicious shots at Barack based purely on the color of his skin. I told him I am not surprised considering the state he lives in.

I am sorry to say, and I am not accusing anyone here of anything, but I really have to wonder if some of the anti-Obama rhetoric I read here is just a substitute for what the writers really want to say.

In fact, the one guy i am sure is not like that is my buddy from Mississippi, Nick, who is just a strong libertarian. Now I donlt expect anyone here to come out and say it is how they are because like I wrote earlier, why should they when they have the perfect cover to hide their hatred?

[luvdembravos]

I am sorry to say, and I am not accusing anyone here of anything, but I really have to wonder if some of the anti-Obama rhetoric I read here is just a substitute for what the writers really want to say.

In fact, the one guy i am sure is not like that is my buddy from Mississippi, Nick, who is just a strong libertarian. Now I donlt expect anyone here to come out and say it is how they are because like I wrote earlier, why should they when they have the perfect cover to hide their hatred?

Hmmm let’s see… if you think your Buddy, Nick, isn’t a racist and since only ICIP and me are the only other ones around here who constantly blast Obama, then once can deduce from your comment that you think either one or both of us are racist. But you know what? Who cares what you think. My dislike for Obama has nothing to do with race. As a matter of fact, I dislike Nancy Pelosi even more. Does that make me anti-Italian?

Your accusation -and you definitely made an accusation - is right out of the Democrat playbook when things are going poorly (see page 69 in the chapter entitled “Desperation.”). These recent accusations by you and the MSM are typically aimed at Tea Partiers and are mostly manufactured lies. For example, last Sunday at a Capitol Hill rally, tea partiers allegedly shouted the “n-word” at John Lewis and made nasty anti-gay comments to Barney Frank. But where’s the proof? No audio or video of these alleged incidents was ever produced even though plenty of TV cameras and voice recorders were everywhere on the Hill that day.

But nice try Rap attempting to play the race card YET AGAIN.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I must've missed something...is there a list of states that designates one as being more racist than others? Can you just decide by it's location on a map which state is racist and which isn't? Maybe I'm just being thin-skinned, but telling your friend you aren't surprised at racism because of the state he lives in? That's a bit too much.
Racism knows no state boundaries and has no set borders. It is everywhere. Granted, it was more pronounced (at least more widely covered by the media and put in the nation's crosshairs) in the South, but it certainly wasn't restricted to the South. This isn't the 50's or 60's any more and things have changed significantly. Let's try and recognize that, okay people?

[The Rap]

Take a deep breath next time.

[bravos4evr]

I'm not racist, I'm an equal opportunity A$$hole!

[Dreamscape]

These recent accusations by you and the MSM are typically aimed at Tea Partiers and are mostly manufactured lies. For example, last Sunday at a Capitol Hill rally, tea partiers allegedly shouted the “n-word” at John Lewis and made nasty anti-gay comments to Barney Frank. But where’s the proof? No audio or video of these alleged incidents was ever produced even though plenty of TV cameras and voice recorders were everywhere on the Hill that day.
Well, it's one person's word against another. It's Fox News and the right-wing media vs. the left-wing media.

I think it's ridiculous to not think words used against Lewis and/or Frank weren't said by someone in the group. I don't think it's an indictment on the entire group and I grow bored of the race discussion. I am around enough people to hear these words every day and they, more often than not, are said by those who also don't think too highly of the President. But whatever, it's not that big of a deal.

By the way, doubt you would give it much of a look, but huffingtonpost (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html) did a bit on some of the more offensive signs at Tea Party protests in the past. You can cycle through the first bunch of pics. So, yeah, there are racists in the crowd.

[luvdembravos]

Well, it's one person's word against another. It's Fox News and the right-wing media vs. the left-wing media.

I think it's ridiculous to not think words used against Lewis and/or Frank weren't said by someone in the group. I don't think it's an indictment on the entire group and I grow bored of the race discussion. I am around enough people to hear these words every day and they, more often than not, are said by those who also don't think too highly of the President. But whatever, it's not that big of a deal.

By the way, doubt you would give it much of a look, but huffingtonpost (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html) did a bit on some of the more offensive signs at Tea Party protests in the past. You can cycle through the first bunch of pics. So, yeah, there are racists in the crowd.

I have no doubt that there are some tea party folks who are rascists and maybe, just maybe someone said something inappropriate last weekend. There are bad apples in every group. But I'm 100% convinced that the tea party movement isn't about race. But I agree with you that it's not a big deal. IMO, it's just manufactured controversy ...and controversy sells.

[The Rap]

I saw the guy spitting at the Congressman and heard eyewitness accounts of people calling Barney homophobic curses. Maybe ytou should explaij to me why not one Republican has come out and condemned this behavior? All they do is offer excuse upon excuse.

[Chris_Moderato]

I saw the guy spitting at the Congressman and heard eyewitness accounts of people calling Barney homophobic curses. Maybe ytou should explaij to me why not one Republican has come out and condemned this behavior? All they do is offer excuse upon excuse.

I'll do it for him, even though I'm fairly certain you don't give a monkey's nutsack what he or anyone else thinks. He's going to point to the fact that none of these things, according to the media he has seen, was caught on tape, and your claims are unreliable and most likely biased.

[bravos4evr]

Barney Frank is a rough trade running queen. There I said it..........

[The Rap]

Are you homophobic?

[Agent-X-]

Are you homophobic?

Are you a retard power-dyke?

Source. (http://www.whiteninjacomics.com/comics/derogatory.shtml)

:p

[bravos4evr]

hold on I will fix my above post so it accurately conveys my intended thought.

Barney Frank is a rough trade running queen..... there I said it :-)

[I Come in Peace]

So one moron spits on one Democrat congressman big freaking deal. This is a calculated effort by the Dems and their friends in the media to silence the Tea Party, it is going to back fire. They are justing throwing another match into the fire that is the Tea Party.

[Dreamscape]

This is a calculated effort by the Dems and their friends in the media to silence the Tea Party, it is going to back fire.
No, it's really not. You can think up whatever conspiracy theory you want, but it's just news. It's always news when representatives are spit at, cursed at, etc.

[The Rap]

Especially if those being spat at were also spat at over 40 years ago during the civil rights struggle.

[The Rap]

Are you a retard power-dyke?

Source. (http://www.whiteninjacomics.com/comics/derogatory.shtml)

:p

Not an appropriate incident for humor. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I would suspend someone for making remarks like that. Then again I can only imagine if I said it what would happen.

[Chris_Moderato]

Is it possible to suspend the owner of the site?

[The Rap]

I wasn't referring to Donnie. It was directed at Nick.

[Chris_Moderato]

I wasn't referring to Donnie. It was directed at Nick.

My mistake.

[bravos4evr]

What I said was completely innocent humor man. I wasn't being mean spirited at all..... Barney Frank Himself would prolly laugh at what i wrote..... and you didn't even quote my statement in yer post..... I'm like totally lost here ....

[luvdembravos]

... and you didn't even quote my statement in yer post..... I'm like totally lost here ....

Apparently, you are not the only one.

[The Rap]

Someone posted this at The Huffington Post and I like it a lot. The only problem I have is the omission of Geithner who infuriated me yesterday in an interview when he said that the new Financial Reform bill had real teth and represented major change.

""America is held out to the world as a meritocracy. You work hard, you play by the rules, you make sound judgment calls, you succeed. That’s the American dream. Right? That’s what the President of the United States should exemplify in his actions. Right?"

"Then how does one explain the individuals who represent the abject failures of financial and regulatory theory chosen by the President to dominate the dialogue on financial reform. How does one reconcile President Obama appointing Lawrence Summers as head of the National Economic Council after Mr. Summers played a central role in rolling back the safeguards that led to the current financial crisis."

[The Rap]

What I said was completely innocent humor man. I wasn't being mean spirited at all..... Barney Frank Himself would prolly laugh at what i wrote..... and you didn't even quote my statement in yer post..... I'm like totally lost here ....

Nick, its all good but please understand this is the internet so how could anyone tell what your intention was?

[I Come in Peace]

Here is a hilarious is new ad that McCain is running against Hayworth. Like McCain or not his commercials are awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xULUb98TNwk&feature=player_embedded

[KB 34]

That makes me want to donate to Hayworth's campaign again. It's house cleaning time in Washington and a nice place to start on the republican side is one of the few people who make John Kerry look consistent, McCain.

[Dreamscape]

If Hayworth is elected, the Senate's IQ will drop considerably.

And we really can't afford for our Senate to get any dumber.

[The Rap]

The IQ will tumble down like crazy if Palin is the Presidential candidate. I have been watching her and can't help but cringe at the stupidity displayed.

[The Rap]

BTW, if Haworth beats McCain then that is the perfect example of how extreme the Republican party has become. Here you have the Presdiential candidate who has beenn in the Senate for so long and is a war hero to boot but he's not conservative enough?

[KB 34]

McCain had inconsistent positions during his presidential campaign and changed his tone a lot. Conservatives had no reason to believe he was being truthful when he talked like a conservative. Since Obama has been elected he's been more conservative but there's no reason to trust him. Given his geographical location immigration comes into play. Conservatives from that area especially don't like his support for blanket amnesty. The most dangerous politicians on both sides of the aisle are those without core believes they fight for without fail. Prime example: I don't like the policies of Herb Kohl but his votes are incredibly predictable. Wisconsin voters know every time they elect him that he'll vote the same way he did the past 300. That cannt be said for the other Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold, who likes to play both sides of things. We have a really good idea of the Senator Hayworth would be, which is exactly why both the RNC and DNC want him gone. Both the RNC and the DNC see the chance to manipulate McCain into supporting them today even if he turned them down yesterday. That's a problem if you're like me and want transparent senators who vote the way they tell voters they will from day 1.

[The Rap]

Nice but shouldn't that be the rule for all Senators?

[I Come in Peace]

Nice but shouldn't that be the rule for all Senators?

I think that is what KB is saying he is just using McCain as an example.

[Dreamscape]

No, it really shouldn't be the rule. The people we elect are not, and should not, be robots. There are some very complex things in this world, some of which our politicians have to deal with. Expecting them to look at everything so simplistically would be a disservice to our country.

I frankly think if you elect someone and everything he does is predictable, he is asleep at the wheel.

[I Come in Peace]

Dream

I agree with you when it comes to an executive who needs to make decisions but as far as a legislator I just want one to vote the way I would on the issue.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

The big problem there is that you're so predictable, Lavell. You see (some of) what is presented to you and gauge it strictly through your party-taught screen. If you and the rest of us are lucky and our legislators are intelligent, they will know a lot more about what they are voting on and go accordingly. Things are rarely simple black and white issues. At face value, a bill may scream to you "VOTE YES!" To someone on the inside, it may have tons of things tacked on that are against the principles he was elected on, if he actually has any.

[bravos4evr]

I would really like to get rid of the "tacked on" portion of bills. Legislation should be a simple yes or no issue... not " well I support the main part but not the 47 earmarks attached to it"

[The Rap]

Don't hold your breath Nick. It is one of the features of the system that doesn't work and is set up to benefit the wealthy.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

Don't hold your breath Nick. It is one of the features of the system that doesn't work and is set up to benefit the wealthy.

In what way is this "feature" set up to benefit the wealthy?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I believe most of us would like to see bills presented on their own merit, Nick, as you suggest. Bills should read like, "Should we allocate funds to build dams and levees that will protect below sea level areas, such as New Orleans?" They start out like that then before they reach a vote everybody and their brother has tacked on sheiss that will get their "yes" vote if their district or state gets this or that. If the same jackballs who raise so much Hell about Tort reform or funding abortion clinics would apply that type of dedication to trimming the fat from solid legislation, we might all trust more of 'em! I believe this type of crap is one reason the country's goin' to Hell. I heard a local talk show host ask a local politician a simple "How would you vote?" question on a fairly simple topic his party is for. After five minutes, the turdmunch hadn't given the guy a straight answer! He still hasn't! Yet he was elected to an office. I even heard one local beating the drum about what a strong conservative and true republican he is. He started a campaign around Jefferson County called, "Jeffco Can!" and is running on a platform of "Change." Sound familiar? It's like he ripped a page outta Obama's plan.....Politicians suck!

[The Rap]

In what way is this "feature" set up to benefit the wealthy?

Are you kidding? The whole system is set up to benefit the "haves" and not the "have nots."

[Chris_Moderato]

Are you kidding? The whole system is set up to benefit the "haves" and not the "have nots."

Please explain how, citing specific examples.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

Are you kidding? The whole system is set up to benefit the "haves" and not the "have nots."

As near as I can figure, I neither agreed nor disagreed with you. You made a declarative statement without providing any sort of support for that statement. I simply asked you to elaborate.

[Dreamscape]

As near as I can figure, I neither agreed nor disagreed with you. You made a declarative statement without providing any sort of support for that statement. I simply asked you to elaborate.
But he did thank you so cut him some slack.

[The Rap]

Please explain how, citing specific examples.

Nah, I have given up trying to explain anything here. It is like banging your head against the wall and all you end up with is a headache.

[Chris_Moderato]

Nah, I have given up trying to explain anything here. It is like banging your head against the wall and all you end up with is a headache.

I see. So, henceforth, just pronouncements?

[bravos4evr]

I am the smartest person in the world and my opinions are facts!!!

[I Come in Peace]

A lot of these have nots that Mike loves to talk about don't even pay income taxes. 47% of Americans don't pay income taxes yet he thinks that the system is against them, I didn't make jack this past year (around 18K) and still paid taxes yet you don't see me complain about that or asking for someone else's income.

[I Come in Peace]

According to PPP which is pretty reliable Huckabee now has a two point lead on Obama, Romney one point lead, Newt tied, and Palin trailing by two. The same poll showed that 48% would vote for Obama and 46% would vote for George W.

[Chris_Moderato]

According to PPP which is pretty reliable Huckabee now has a two point lead on Obama, Romney one point lead, Newt tied, and Palin trailing by two. The same poll showed that 48% would vote for Obama and 46% would vote for George W.

Man, Obama had better get his s**t together if he wants to win re-election later this year, huh?

What's that? Not this year, you say? Ok, well...

He'd better get it together before next year's Presidential election or he's going to...sorry, say again? 2012? Oh...well...

I guess this all amounts to standing around with your hand down your pants.

[Dreamscape]

A lot of these have nots that Mike loves to talk about don't even pay income taxes. 47% of Americans don't pay income taxes yet he thinks that the system is against them, I didn't make jack this past year (around 18K) and still paid taxes yet you don't see me complain about that or asking for someone else's income.
You are not understanding the tax code, it appears. One, because of both parties pushing tax credits, people are getting their income taxes back in a form of refund. It's important to recognize that people are putting the money into the system and then having it refunded. If you filed taxes on taxable revenue from your job, you probably got most of it back in your refund.

By the way, we already do have one of the more progressive redistribution of wealth tax codes in the world.

[I Come in Peace]

You are not understanding the tax code, it appears. One, because of both parties pushing tax credits, people are getting their income taxes back in a form of refund. It's important to recognize that people are putting the money into the system and then having it refunded. If you filed taxes on taxable revenue from your job, you probably got most of it back in your refund.

By the way, we already do have one of the more progressive redistribution of wealth tax codes in the world.

Tell that to Mike.

I know that I got a refund about about 1,000 but I put in more than that myself so the way I see it that is my money in the first place. Getting your own money back isn't redistribution.

[I Come in Peace]

Man, Obama had better get his s**t together if he wants to win re-election later this year, huh?

What's that? Not this year, you say? Ok, well...

He'd better get it together before next year's Presidential election or he's going to...sorry, say again? 2012? Oh...well...

I guess this all amounts to standing around with your hand down your pants.

I know it was more of a point of showing how Obama has fallen and I'm loving every part of it. :thumbsup:

[The Rap]

Here is somethiong to dim your spirits Lavelle; At the moment the Republicans better find themselves a candidate because none of the buffoons listed will stand a chance against Obama.

[I Come in Peace]

Here is somethiong to dim your spirits Lavelle; At the moment the Republicans better find themselves a candidate because none of the buffoons listed will stand a chance against Obama.

Well I'm no fan of those names, two of them are ahead of him so I wouldn't say that Obama is unbeatable. It is too far out to know but he could lose or he could win.

Obama is however doing a great job. He has lowered the debt and deficit. He has decreased unemployment and he has saved the economy with that great stimilus package. So I agree Obama is great.

[The Rap]

You probably paid more taxes than ExxonMobil this year. Seriously.

That's probably because they spent a lot more money lobbying Congress than you did. In fact, last year, they spent over $27 million in lobbying so they could take home a bigger chunk of the $284 billion they made.1

And they aren't the only corporation to dodge their tax bill through offshore accounts and shell companies. Far from it.

[I Come in Peace]

You probably paid more taxes than ExxonMobil this year. Seriously.

That's probably because they spent a lot more money lobbying Congress than you did. In fact, last year, they spent over $27 million in lobbying so they could take home a bigger chunk of the $284 billion they made.1

And they aren't the only corporation to dodge their tax bill through offshore accounts and shell companies. Far from it.




ya that isn't good and those taxes should be enforced but that doesn't mean that all these other policies are good.

[Dreamscape]

I know that I got a refund about about 1,000 but I put in more than that myself so the way I see it that is my money in the first place. Getting your own money back isn't redistribution.
But that's what we talk about when you talk about people not paying income taxes. They are simply getting their money back, right? And you wouldn't have paid any taxes had you had a kid or were able to be covered under other tax credits. The way we do things (and nobody complains about getting refunds) is why our government then has to take more money out elsewhere. We whine about this tax and this tax, but the reason they occur is because the government is giving back thousands to people like you and me instead of keeping it. And then we spend it on whatever.

Whether that is a good plan or not, it's highly progressive.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I think I'm getting back like nine bucks from the fed and I owe the state $29. Except for the state, it's set up as it should be. If you file correctly, in my case as single, no dependents, and have them deduct the correct amounts, you shouldn't expect a large "refund" or have to pay them. I use that "refund" cash all year by investing it so it earns for me throughout the year, not the IRS. You get back a chunk of money you overpaid, essentially letting them use your dough for themselves all year and you gain nothing. It would feel great to get back a big chunk, as I did last year when I used the credit we were given and my donation of a car to charity to boost my take, but this year I put my jack to work for me instead of overpaying. My investments, meager though they are, have produced so I feel pretty good about it!

[wordslayer©]

I think I'm getting back like nine bucks from the fed and I owe the state $29. Except for the state, it's set up as it should be. If you file correctly, in my case as single, no dependents, and have them deduct the correct amounts, you shouldn't expect a large "refund" or have to pay them. I use that "refund" cash all year by investing it so it earns for me throughout the year, not the IRS. You get back a chunk of money you overpaid, essentially letting them use your dough for themselves all year and you gain nothing. It would feel great to get back a big chunk, as I did last year when I used the credit we were given and my donation of a car to charity to boost my take, but this year I put my jack to work for me instead of overpaying. My investments, meager though they are, have produced so I feel pretty good about it!

Interesting......

usually, for most people, you are better off claiming more deductions.

[I Come in Peace]

But that's what we talk about when you talk about people not paying income taxes. They are simply getting their money back, right? And you wouldn't have paid any taxes had you had a kid or were able to be covered under other tax credits. The way we do things (and nobody complains about getting refunds) is why our government then has to take more money out elsewhere. We whine about this tax and this tax, but the reason they occur is because the government is giving back thousands to people like you and me instead of keeping it. And then we spend it on whatever.

Whether that is a good plan or not, it's highly progressive.

you are talking about it as if all the tax refund is the total of the taxes we pay. we don't nearly get back what we put in.

[Dreamscape]

you are talking about it as if all the tax refund is the total of the taxes we pay. we don't nearly get back what we put in.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/15/hodge.non.taxpayers/

The consequence of turning the tax code into a tool for social policy is that we now have a record 52 million filers off the income tax rolls. This means 36 percent of all so-called taxpayers actually pay zero in income taxes after taking their credits and deductions. But these figures don't include some 15 million people who work but don't earn enough to file a tax return. When these people are added to the non-payers, estimates the Tax Policy Center, the percentage of households who don't pay income taxes rises to 47 percent.

For a lot of people, the people who you were complaining about, yes, they get back all that they put in. No one is asking for someone else's refund, they are getting theirs back paid in full. That's the system everyone seems to adore.

[I Come in Peace]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/15/hodge.non.taxpayers/



For a lot of people, the people who you were complaining about, yes, they get back all that they put in. No one is asking for someone else's refund, they are getting theirs back paid in full. That's the system everyone seems to adore.

ya but if you are getting a full refund on your taxes you are getting basically the free benefits b/c you are getting the same services and in some cases more services than people who don't get a full refund.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Interesting......

usually, for most people, you are better off claiming more deductions.

Possibly, if they are legitimate. I had my taxes done professionally and they know a lot more about those deductions than I do! I do know several who lie on their deduction forms just to get back a huge chunk at refund time. I don't see the logic. You have them cut more from your checks, money that you would otherwise take home to spend as you would or invest, and then they give you back a good portion of it, interest-free after a year. There's no profit there, by my thinking. The same money say, $600 for example, that those people were "over-cut" went into my pocket and into my investments. It was actually making me more money throughout the year. In that way, I may have gotten $650 instead of $600. Follow my thinking? Why let the IRS take your money and sit on it a year, drawing interest from it for their purposes when you could be drawing interest yourself?
:thumbsup:

[wordslayer©]

Possibly, if they are legitimate. I had my taxes done professionally and they know a lot more about those deductions than I do! I do know several who lie on their deduction forms just to get back a huge chunk at refund time. I don't see the logic. You have them cut more from your checks, money that you would otherwise take home to spend as you would or invest, and then they give you back a good portion of it, interest-free after a year. There's no profit there, by my thinking. The same money say, $600 for example, that those people were "over-cut" went into my pocket and into my investments. It was actually making me more money throughout the year. In that way, I may have gotten $650 instead of $600. Follow my thinking? Why let the IRS take your money and sit on it a year, drawing interest from it for their purposes when you could be drawing interest yourself?
:thumbsup:

I'm not an accountant, (oh what the hell, this is the internet, I can be anything damn thing I want), but in my accounting practice, I advise people the same way. It's silly to let the govt have your money all year when you could be investing it and letting it grow.

[I Come in Peace]

This may sound bad but I don't have a problem with people cheating on their taxes a little as long as they aren't the one's out there claiming for higher taxes on others (aka Tim Gietner, Keith Olbermann). The gov't has enough of our own money nothing wrong with taking some of our own back. If the feds are allowed to lie to me well then I feel fine lying to them.

[The Rap]

Well I dont pay taxes anymore and feel good about that. Lavelle why did you name Geithner and Olbermann?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

If you want to cheat on your taxes, knock yerself out!
If you get no reach-around when audited by the IRS don't complain! I hear they don't do lubes either. It's strictly a bohica situation!

[The Rap]

Fred, I have no idea what you said after the first line.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Translation; If you cheat on your taxes and get audited by the IRS, don't complain after they dry-hump you and don't offer any mutual satisfaction.
Bohica - Bend Over, Here It Comes Again.
I now return control of your screen..........

[I Come in Peace]

Well I dont pay taxes anymore and feel good about that. Lavelle why did you name Geithner and Olbermann?

Both of them have been caught cheating on their taxes and support higher taxes on others. Making them hypocrites.

Okay Michael if you aren't paying taxes then please stop calling on others to pay more taxes,

[Dreamscape]

Both of them have been caught cheating on their taxes and support higher taxes on others. Making them hypocrites.

Okay Michael if you aren't paying taxes then please stop calling on others to pay more taxes,
There is a world of difference between cheating your taxes and making errors due to the complex nature of the IRS's tax codes. It's weak to automatically assume people are actively trying to circumvent the tax code when they know they will be publicly audited. And if their cases were truly considered cases of people trying to cheat the system for their own financial gain, maybe they would have more trouble than simply paying back what they did not pay before.

[I Come in Peace]

I still can't get over Michael bragging about not paying taxes. He has pushed so hard here for all these giant gov't programs yet doesn't have a problem not paying for it. That makes all of his arguments irrelavent to me.

[I Come in Peace]

There is a world of difference between cheating your taxes and making errors due to the complex nature of the IRS's tax codes. It's weak to automatically assume people are actively trying to circumvent the tax code when they know they will be publicly audited. And if their cases were truly considered cases of people trying to cheat the system for their own financial gain, maybe they would have more trouble than simply paying back what they did not pay before.

okay maybe give Olbermann a pass but the head to the Treasury Department should now the tax code or he should get another job.

[Dreamscape]

So you say. But you have no idea how random the code actually is, now do you? Especially for self-employed people.

[I Come in Peace]

So you say. But you have no idea how random the code actually is, now do you? Especially for self-employed people.

So your comparing my tax code knowledge to that of the Treasury Sec? I believe someone running the treasury should know the tax code in full.

[bravos4evr]

Who the crap has the time to learn the dadburn tax code? That's what Turbo Tax is for!

[Dreamscape]

So your comparing my tax code knowledge to that of the Treasury Sec? I believe someone running the treasury should know the tax code in full.
Really? He's not an IRS agent. You wouldn't expect the Douglas Shulman to be that knowledgeable about foreign economic policy, all its ins and outs and different economic policies of countries throughout the world, so well he can advise the president at demand? No, you'd expect the Commissioner of the IRS, that's Shulman b the w, to know the tax code in full, right? Or are you that unrealistically demanding of people about overly complex things you have absolutely no idea about?

Or...and my last dollar is on this one...or you were just spouting talking points that sound a lot more vicious before you look at the truth and facts behind them?

[I Come in Peace]

Get rid of the tax code just use the "fair tax".

[Dreamscape]

Get rid of the tax code just use the "fair tax".
http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

I rather like this line: "We found that while there are several good economic arguments for the FairTax, unless you earn more than $200,000 per year, fairness is not one of them."

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Lavell, before you go rippin' Michael for not paying taxes you should consider how long he did pay taxes and you can figure he paid quite a bit over that period. I'm pretty sure he would much rather be in the position of paying taxes while earning a good income than being disabled at the hands of some miserable SOBs he was trying to educate in a schoolroom.
Your ignorance is frightening, sometimes...

[Chris_Moderato]

Lavell, before you go rippin' Michael for not paying taxes you should consider how long he did pay taxes and you can figure he paid quite a bit over that period. I'm pretty sure he would much rather be in the position of paying taxes while earning a good income than being disabled at the hands of some miserable SOBs he was trying to educate in a schoolroom.
Your ignorance is frightening, sometimes...

If you are comfortable doing so, Rap, tell us about your disability situation- for members who may not have heard or seen the story back at BravesBeat.

[The Rap]

I had triple bypass surgery in August of 2002. I was at that time a teacher in the NYC public schools. I was ordered back to teaching by November 1st despite my doctor saying I wasn't ready yet. I came to school and one of the classes they gave me was an 8th grade class that was a special project of the School Chancellor. It was comprised of students who couldn't make it into high school. This was to be their last chance and they had to pass two tests, one in English and the other in basic math. The average age of the class was between 13 and 17 (remember this is the 8th grade). The kids were split between those smaller than me and the ones bigger than me. It was large group of juvenile delinquents. Most teachers say their goal is that their students don't wind up in jail. I had students in that class who were already coming back from jail. I had whores in the class room at age 16 and I caught one of the guys dealing drugs to the 6th grade. When I reported him I was told to forget it because what would I want to do all the paperwork involved for? I went to the principal everyday and told him I was in dangr because I was still healing. On December 19, 2002 a pair of 15 year-old student punched me in the chest while in the classroom. It left me with a permanent fractured sternum and with the two sides of my chest unable to come back together. The NYC public school system I knew to be the greatest bureaucracy and racist organization in the city but I learned that they were the most corrupt as well. I ended up going on welfare and getting food stamps to survive. When I turned 55 I went for my Social Security DI benefits. I was denied as is normal. I went to Senator Schumer for help and he wrote a letter to the judge I had to appeal to. I went before the judge who asked me only one quewstion; How can anyone in your condition be asked to work? Right, but it proved to me what crooks the school system was. I went to a lawyer and he told me I can't sue because there was a deal according to the collective bargaining deal between the unions and the schools that no teacher could sue on the basis of what kind of class he/she was teaching. He also told me that NYC is filled with teachers who have been screwed and are walking the streets.

Lavelle, you have a lot of nerve to say I was bragging or anything like that because I wasn't paying taxes anymore. I was a VP in a financial services firm
and it will take you many years to catch up to me in terms of who paid more taxes as I made six-figure salaries for many years.

[I Come in Peace]

i was just responding to your quote, how am i supposed to know your tax history?

[Chris_Moderato]

i was just responding to your quote, how am i supposed to know your tax history?

You didn't so much respond as react to his quote- in typical fashion, without all the information.

Perhaps in the future, more considered and measured responses are in order? Just a thought.

[bravos4evr]

You didn't so much respond as react to his quote- in typical fashion, without all the information.

Perhaps in the future, more considered and measured responses are in order? Just a thought.

Thats the dumbest load of crap anyone has ever posted here!!!!




:D:thumbsup:

[The Rap]

i was just responding to your quote, how am i supposed to know your tax history?

You have to know more than you do before accusing me of 'bragging.'

[The Rap]

BTW Lavelle, I not paying taxes translates to me not talking about lowering taxes then the same logic should apply to you right? Dont say anything ever about Iraq or Afghanistan until you have fought there.

[The Rap]

Instead of beginning a new thread I decided to put this here and wonder if anyone is as incensed as I am.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=[3351,53763]

EDIT: Sorry but the link doesn't work for some reason. Just go to Rolling Stone web site (http://www.rollingstone.com/) and seee Matt Taibbi's latest column. Especially you Fred.

[bravos4evr]

I get rolling stone(got it free with a t-shirt I got for xmas) and man..... it's really turned into a lefty rag.....it's soooo biased it's just worthless as a "news" source. It seems designed to just incense people with carefully selected "truths"....

[Freddy_Ballgame]

When I get a chance, I'll check it out. As for the Rolling Stone being a news source, I take it about as seriously as I used to take National Lampoon. (God I miss that mag!)

[I Come in Peace]

BTW Lavelle, I not paying taxes translates to me not talking about lowering taxes then the same logic should apply to you right? Dont say anything ever about Iraq or Afghanistan until you have fought there.

Then you don't talk about it either.

[bravos4evr]

I know you are but what am I?

[I Come in Peace]

Looks like Charlie Crist is going to run as an independent. What a jackass that guy is.

[Dreamscape]

Looks like Charlie Crist is going to run as an independent. What a jackass that guy is.
Why is he a jackass? Because you don't like that he may steal some Republican votes for a terrible candidate in Rubio or is there something that truly makes him some kind of awful?

[The Rap]

I know what Rolling Stone is as I have been reading it since it first came out so many years ago. Still gentlemen, I think it would make more sense to read what Matt Taibbi wrote and refute what you don't agree with rather than just dismissing it as a lefty rag and such. Taibbi is a great investigative reporter and backs up all information he relays. If you have a problem after reading it then please let us discuss it. After all I do watch FOX news and attempt to understand where they come from.

Lavelle, you shouldn't call Crist an *******.. Keep supporting the right wing nut Rubio who it was revealed this morning is under investigation for misusing political funds.

[The Rap]

Then you don't talk about it either.

Great answer especially after you started this by saying I was bragging.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Hey! Has Rush Limbaugh left the country yet? Or was that just more BS from the pompous windbag?

[I Come in Peace]

Hey! Has Rush Limbaugh left the country yet? Or was that just more BS from the pompous windbag?

He was talking about leaving to get health care not moving.

[The Rap]

No he wasn't. He said if it passes he's leaving.

[Dreamscape]

Actually, Rush did say he would go Costa Rica for health care, not move out of the country, in five years if our health plan is implemented. He just wasn't very clear about what he said.

The more interesting part is he would go to a country with one of the longest standing socialized health care plans in the world. But Costa Rica is one health place, I can't argue that. And a bargain at their prices. But then, I'm not a millionaire and can't get my Vicodin at low prices.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Maybe you should get an "illegal" housekeeper to shop for you!

[bravos4evr]

Maybe you should get an "illegal" housekeeper to shop for you!



OH SNAP!:eek:

[The Rap]

Rush should go to hell where he belongs. What is "snap?"

[bravos4evr]

Rush should go to hell where he belongs. What is "snap?"

Well, "Oh Snap" is a kind of modern urban parlance which one uses when referring to someone saying something insulting and or puts another person in their place, and you as the outsider comment upon it...

Like If You said " Rush should go to hell where he belongs" and Rush followed up by saying" I would but the Kennedy's have filled that place up" I as an outsider hearing this might say " Oh Snap!"

[The Rap]

Rememebr when I brought up the belief I had regarding racism towards barack? I said then the problem was that those exercising that evil had the perfect cover. Well it seems Arizona doesn't even need a cover. Their new immigration law is blatant racism in my book and I am not surprised as Arizona was the last state in the country to accept Martin Luther King Day as a national holiday.

BTW, I have come to conclusion that hero or not, John McCain has to be one of the most political whores today in politics and his "country first" baloney during the last election was just another political ploy on his part. I think his opponent JD Heyworth is a little nuts and very right wing but at least consistent in his views . With McCain you never know which view will be most expedient for him to advocate.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

McCain showed signs of dementia during the last campaign. I don't think it has improved.

[KB 34]

BTW, I have come to conclusion that hero or not, John McCain has to be one of the most political whores today in politics and his "country first" baloney during the last election was just another political ploy on his part. I think his opponent JD Heyworth is a little nuts and very right wing but at least consistent in his views . With McCain you never know which view will be most expedient for him to advocate.
That's exactly why McCain and other so called republicans are in a ton of trouble right now; the people that voted for them are sick of the inconsistency and appeasing to both sides. It starts at the top with Steele playing the race card when his conduct was simply unacceptable, and he was too much of a coward to accept responsibility for his actions. It looks like Ben Nelson on the democratic side will also be finding a new job in 2012 since he also has been playing these games. One thing about Heyworth is his political opponents will hate his positions and know exactly why and exactly how he will vote, as will his voters. That's quite respectable for any politicians and something that's been lacking a lot in Washington.

[I Come in Peace]

Rememebr when I brought up the belief I had regarding racism towards barack? I said then the problem was that those exercising that evil had the perfect cover. Well it seems Arizona doesn't even need a cover. Their new immigration law is blatant racism in my book and I am not surprised as Arizona was the last state in the country to accept Martin Luther King Day as a national holiday.

BTW, I have come to conclusion that hero or not, John McCain has to be one of the most political whores today in politics and his "country first" baloney during the last election was just another political ploy on his part. I think his opponent JD Heyworth is a little nuts and very right wing but at least consistent in his views . With McCain you never know which view will be most expedient for him to advocate. blant racism? they are searching for illegal aliens and they are hispanic that is just a matter of fact. just like terrorist being muslim, it may not be pc but sometimes race is just part of correct profiling.

[Hobbes]

blant racism? they are searching for illegal aliens and they are hispanic that is just a matter of fact. just like terrorist being muslim, it may not be pc but sometimes race is just part of correct profiling.
And if a "muslim" was walking down the street minding his own business the government couldn't just stop him and demand proof of citizenship, nor detain him if he wasn't carrying such proof. Nor could they do so with any other nationality without due cause. That is the crux of this argument.

[The Rap]

blant racism? they are searching for illegal aliens and they are hispanic that is just a matter of fact. just like terrorist being muslim, it may not be pc but sometimes race is just part of correct profiling.

You are amazing. Where do you get all your crap from? I am curious. Even my conservative frieends are up in arms about this. I watched a sherrif in Arizona on CNN last night and he said "other states should be thankful to Arizona for taking this stance as it precludes all these from going to their states." What was most interesting was that I remember very clearly about 50 years ago watching Southern sherrifs mouthing the same racist bs.

[bravos4evr]

Call me a racist but if the people of Arizona want this law then they , as a soveriegn state, have the right to have it. You don't live in Arizona, so it's really none of yer bidness what they do there. You want to have another civil war? IMO, if yer a mexican you better keep yer dadburn documents on you and stop harboring yer illegal immigrant relatives( and I would pass a law putting people in jail for a year for harboring or hiring illegals). But I'm a ruthless SOB.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I can understand what passed as logic in this decision. The governor acted out of anger and frustration because the US government has made so little effort to protect the borders while Mexican drug lords do battle in and out of Arizona's borders. This criminal element "forced" this action. I question the sensibility of this snipe hunt. It will cause new problems. I don't know the answers. I don't approve of or like the method they have chosen to "defend" their border but I don't think it was done on a whim. Perhaps they should've requested the US send in the national guard to maintain the border until a wiser solution could be developed. I know if I lived in the vicinity of these murderous gangs I'd like to think my governor was doing something to protect me "even if it was wrong." Perhaps the governor's decision will force the prez to intervene with a better solution, for national security reasons.

[I Come in Peace]

And if a "muslim" was walking down the street minding his own business the government couldn't just stop him and demand proof of citizenship, nor detain him if he wasn't carrying such proof. Nor could they do so with any other nationality without due cause. That is the crux of this argument.

I was referring to profiling of Muslims at airports and other areas like that. Sorry I should have been more clear, I wasn't talking about the same issue.

[I Come in Peace]

You are amazing. Where do you get all your crap from? I am curious. Even my conservative frieends are up in arms about this. I watched a sherrif in Arizona on CNN last night and he said "other states should be thankful to Arizona for taking this stance as it precludes all these from going to their states." What was most interesting was that I remember very clearly about 50 years ago watching Southern sherrifs mouthing the same racist bs.

What is racist about wanting to prevent illegal immigration? Is there any issue that the left won't play the race card?

[Chris_Moderato]

What is racist about wanting to prevent illegal immigration? Is there any issue that the left won't play the race card?

Please don't generalize with terms like, "the left".

[Dreamscape]

Please don't generalize with terms like, "the left".
Don't you hate it when the right does that?

Jeez~!

[wordslayer©]

If people REALLY want to stop immigration, then let the right and everyone else who gives a $hit about it focus on making Mexico a better place to live. I don't see too many Canadians putting 20 people into a van and crashing through our borders.

I get so tired of hearing about the border issues. If people are miserable, starved and angry, they will run through a wall of fire to escape that kind of pain.

[I Come in Peace]

If people REALLY want to stop immigration, then let the right and everyone else who gives a $hit about it focus on making Mexico a better place to live. I don't see too many Canadians putting 20 people into a van and crashing through our borders.

I get so tired of hearing about the border issues. If people are miserable, starved and angry, they will run through a wall of fire to escape that kind of pain.

see in there lies the problem, immigration from Mexico is such a different issue than even 5 years ago. today the issue of violence and drug traffic is much worse. mexico is a narco state and there have been numeerous murders of americans from illegals just inside the boarder. It is about protecting America now. It isn't about the innocent mexican who is looking for a better life anymore, I don't blame them b/c i would do the same thing it is about the thugs damaging america.

[luvdembravos]

Actually, Rush did say he would go Costa Rica for health care, not move out of the country, in five years if our health plan is implemented. He just wasn't very clear about what he said.

The more interesting part is he would go to a country with one of the longest standing socialized health care plans in the world. But Costa Rica is one health place, I can't argue that. And a bargain at their prices. But then, I'm not a millionaire and can't get my Vicodin at low prices.


I'm not going to comment on this topic because I'm too tired to care; however, the mere mention of Costa Rica takes me back 3 decades when my WP classmate, Jose Figueres, lived next door to me. His father was a long-time president of the country and Jose was also elected president in the early 90's (even though I understand he didn't do to well). But the main thing I remember about Jose is that every weekend he had a beautiful woman visiting him. What a lucky dude and nice healthcare to boot!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Sorry Lavell, but that last one sounded like a post of convenience. You seem to have picked up on what I mentioned in my post and want to use it to prop up your argument. I'm not that concerned about Mexican thugs and drug lords moving their battlefield into the USA. I do have concern that the lack of border security in Arizona has created this "knee-jerk" reaction to the situation there. I also wonder, thinking about Slayer's post, if our nation has any places set up along our borders that would precipitate "illegals" attempting to enter the nation properly, and possibly limiting their time and number of visits until they prove their desire to become American citizens the legal way. Maybe we could establish such places to at least provide better opportunities for the people who want to leave their homeland for greener pastures. Making it more convenient to begin the process may be a huge step in making things better.

[I Come in Peace]

Sorry Lavell, but that last one sounded like a post of convenience. You seem to have picked up on what I mentioned in my post and want to use it to prop up your argument. I'm not that concerned about Mexican thugs and drug lords moving their battlefield into the USA. I do have concern that the lack of border security in Arizona has created this "knee-jerk" reaction to the situation there. I also wonder, thinking about Slayer's post, if our nation has any places set up along our borders that would precipitate "illegals" attempting to enter the nation properly, and possibly limiting their time and number of visits until they prove their desire to become American citizens the legal way. Maybe we could establish such places to at least provide better opportunities for the people who want to leave their homeland for greener pastures. Making it more convenient to begin the process may be a huge step in making things better.

i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the issue but my guess is that a lot of the illegals are very poor and not in the position to come here legally. they may not have full access or knowledge on how to get her. like i posted earlier i don't blame the illegals but america right now can't afford them and that is the real problem.

how about all these idiots trying to boycott Arizona? There are morons who are really trying to boycott the D-backs. Well Olbermann is one of the morons, he is now complaining that they are the only team in the mlb without a prominant hispanic player.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I might have to argue with him there....look at the Pirates. They don't have any prominent players of any description!

:rimshot:

[The Rap]

[B]Kudos to Slayer. he brought up something I have been complaining about for the longest time. Why are the Mexicans trying to come here? To escape the poverty and hunger where they are now. Also they are probablyt the hardest working group to come here. We have a bunch of them in my neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY. I see them nearly every Saturday standing on line at the Western Union store waiting to send money back to their families.

I remember actually writing something in my old Rap columns about Presdient Bush. I asked which would make him look better in the world? a) invading Iraq for wrong reasons at unbelievable costs in human suffering and financial cost, or b) Having a meeting with the Mexican President and openly discussing ways we could help them eradicate the poverty that is the cause for so many fleeing. If we did that the POTUS would be looked upon as a hero and not a murderer and it would be easier to catch the drug runners as they wouldn't be able to hide among the masses currently coming across./B]

[bravos4evr]

You can't eradicate poverty in a nation that is as corrupt top to bottom as Mexico, not without, you guessed it, taking over...... Want to invade Mexico? Not me, you think the Iraq thing sucks, imagine if there were mexican freedom fighters bombing OURA BUILDINGS? ick.....

Now don't get all up in arms when you read the first part of what I'm bout to say I have a point to make :
A major problem I have always seen with many idealstic Democrats is that they like to point at things and say" this is awful, we need to fix it!!!!" Thats all fine and dandy, nobody really likes to see poverty nobody wants to keep people from health care. However, they tend to not really think everything through to the extent of A) how are we going come up with a reasonable plan , B) the long term effects of these plans and C) how the heck are we gonna pay for it?
Now the old GOP guys tended to be somewhat isolationist when it came to other countries problems (they basically thought we should solve our own problems first unless it was a strategically significant area), the neo-cons have changed that(and it bugs me) and seem to have followed in a similar manner as the Dem's on these types of issues.....

Mexico is a hole. It's hot, it's dirty it's uber corrupt at all govt levels. It's people are predominantly farmers or low level street merchants in the urban areas.. Hence drug running..... I mean that's what happens. But as far as "fixing" Mexico...... well, it would require the following three things to occur.(I'll also list why the knee jerk responses won't work)

A) an armed invasion and/or overthrow of the present govt and either total USA takeover or putting in a puppet govt under our thumb. (just sending Aid or funds to help won't do it, that money will never find it's way to help anyone who needs it).

B) coming up with either a way to make the rest of the world buy into our reasoning to do it (or dropping out of the UN ....neither seem plausible). and we can't provide jobs buy giving businesses incentive to move factories there to help the Mexicans! think how that would go over here!

C)The USA would have to decide that the end result of a US controlled Mexico is worth it to make all the effort it would take to do A and B..... As much as i don't like all the illegal immigration that happens, bringing a war to our own and our southern neigbors soil to halt it ...... implausible to say the least.

In closing, I think that there isn't much we can do FOR Mexico to cease their interest in coming to the USA illegally The best we can do is try to stem the flow and make it a little bit higher priority than it is. IMO, when we finally get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we should allocate some funds to the Border, hire some of these returning soldiers as border agents , equip them a little better than the border guys are presently and pass some laws that punish our own citizens for hiring and protecting them.... I dunno what else we can do barring shooting them... and eff that.

[Agent-X-]

You can't eradicate poverty in a nation that is as corrupt top to bottom as Mexico, not without, you guessed it, taking over...... Want to invade Mexico? Not me, you think the Iraq thing sucks, imagine if there were mexican freedom fighters bombing OURA BUILDINGS? ick.....

Now don't get all up in arms when you read the first part of what I'm bout to say I have a point to make :
A major problem I have always seen with many idealstic Democrats is that they like to point at things and say" this is awful, we need to fix it!!!!" Thats all fine and dandy, nobody really likes to see poverty nobody wants to keep people from health care. However, they tend to not really think everything through to the extent of A) how are we going come up with a reasonable plan , B) the long term effects of these plans and C) how the heck are we gonna pay for it?
Now the old GOP guys tended to be somewhat isolationist when it came to other countries problems (they basically thought we should solve our own problems first unless it was a strategically significant area), the neo-cons have changed that(and it bugs me) and seem to have followed in a similar manner as the Dem's on these types of issues.....

Mexico is a hole. It's hot, it's dirty it's uber corrupt at all govt levels. It's people are predominantly farmers or low level street merchants in the urban areas.. Hence drug running..... I mean that's what happens. But as far as "fixing" Mexico...... well, it would require the following three things to occur.(I'll also list why the knee jerk responses won't work)

A) an armed invasion and/or overthrow of the present govt and either total USA takeover or putting in a puppet govt under our thumb. (just sending Aid or funds to help won't do it, that money will never find it's way to help anyone who needs it).

B) coming up with either a way to make the rest of the world buy into our reasoning to do it (or dropping out of the UN ....neither seem plausible). and we can't provide jobs buy giving businesses incentive to move factories there to help the Mexicans! think how that would go over here!

C)The USA would have to decide that the end result of a US controlled Mexico is worth it to make all the effort it would take to do A and B..... As much as i don't like all the illegal immigration that happens, bringing a war to our own and our southern neigbors soil to halt it ...... implausible to say the least.

In closing, I think that there isn't much we can do FOR Mexico to cease their interest in coming to the USA illegally The best we can do is try to stem the flow and make it a little bit higher priority than it is. IMO, when we finally get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we should allocate some funds to the Border, hire some of these returning soldiers as border agents , equip them a little better than the border guys are presently and pass some laws that punish our own citizens for hiring and protecting them.... I dunno what else we can do barring shooting them... and eff that.

I'm quoting this because I think there's a lot of truth here.

To that end, I say let Mexico fix itself, and let's mind our own business. They need to represent themselves better. It's a top down problem, and it's a bottom up problem with the people down there.

And I can understand why decent individuals would want to escape and move up here. However, there is an increasingly big problem with having that. Why do we have to be the country that has the most lax rules with gaining citizenship? Why do we need to accept the burden of all these people? Why does it need to be us?

Furthermore, why should we be okay with it? Why is it such a racially charged issue to want to stop people of another race from illegally entering the country? It only becomes racist because they're a minority and it's logically feasible to pull discriminatory ID checks in order to reveal illegals. You would logically never pull this on white people because we're over half the population and you'd be checking a ton of people before you found an illegal among us--it's statistically infeasible to use that method.

I'm not against taking a much harsher stance on protecting the southern border because I know from first-hand experience how dangerous the cartels are. The gang problem down in Mexico is a gang problem all the way up the west coast. It's such a terrible problem that the FBI and NSA are in collaboration with Mexican drug gangs in order to get anything done... even to the point of ratting on the whereabouts of perfectly innocent US citizens that these guys are looking to kill.

LOOKING. TO. KILL.

The FBI gave away the address of someone [I know] who is in the witness protection program. Gave it away. Knowing this man wants to kill her.

We have a BIG PROBLEM with Mexico.

So what's the answer? I don't recommend us fixing Mexico. What about fixing our border? What about making it more difficult to become a citizen? Is there an answer?

[The Rap]

The first message you wrote I didn't like at all and made me wonder if you were drinking when you wrote it. The second longer one I have no problem with at all. I never said it would be simplistic to do what I think is right. I know it is dangerous and very hard to do. In fact, I proposed that Bush should call the President of Mexico and offer his help. Not invade them or try to take them over. But just extend a hand and hopefully it will be full with cash.

It definitely is time for a comprehensive overhaul of our immigration policies. We need to figure out what to do using our heads but also our hearts filled with compassion. We must take into account that these people fill a role that even the least educated of Americans don't really want to do. Go to Beverly Hills and ask all the rich people living there for their views. But also go to any farm or ranch or factory and hopefully you will learn the value of these people and the immense contribution they make to our economy and country. The Latino community is one of the fastest growing in our nation and they are, justifiably I might add, up in arms about what is going on in Arizona. But maybe we need to understand that we are all immigrants, or descendants of immigrants, in this country.

[The Rap]

[B]I'd like to add some thoughts at the risk of sounding older and more experienced. I wonder how many of you are aware of the history between the USA and Mexico. I'm not talking about way back when we took California and Texas, justifiably or not, from them.

I remember as a little kid thinking that all the countries geographically located under us were run by the Rockefeller family and their Chase Manhattan Bank. We were considered the ugly gringos at that time in those countries. I rememebr how their governments would topple almost every day and were called "banana republics" and yes that is where the name came from folks.

The split between rich and poor in those countries were more pronounced than anywhere else. But when it comes to poverty they would be tops. I visited Mexico about 35 years ago on my honey moon. Beautiful people and places and poverty that would break your heart. We were strolling along the Reforma (their version of NYC's 5th Avenue). There was a young beggar woman sitting against the wall of fancy building wrapped in a blanket. There
were about four little kids around her calling her mommy. I took a pic of her and her blanket opened and there was an infant sucking at her breast. I kept the pic in my office in Manahattan and took it out everytime I was depressed about anything and simply looked at it and realized how lucky I was.

The one thing I hated most about that country was how religion was used to hold the people down. A very poor town comprised of huts with a huge church at the center filled with whatever riches the townspeople possessed.

I suggest you all rent the movie "The Motocycle Diaries" to get a good look about what I have been talking about.

[bravos4evr]

Movie=vision=perspective=bias=not history....sorry

[The Rap]

What does that mean? The film is the story when a young doctor took a motorcycle trip with his best friend across the countries of Latin America. The povery and lepers and the way they were treated changed his view of the world. And that what changed him into Che Guevara.

[Chris_Moderato]

What does that mean? The film is the story when a young doctor took a motorcycle trip with his best friend across the countries of Latin America. The povery and lepers and the way they were treated changed his view of the world. And that what changed him into Che Guevara.

His point is:

It's a movie, which is one person's vision, they bring their perspective to the story, this means that it is inherently biased (or, perhaps more precisely, subjective), which means it shouldn't be viewed as history.

You could call that movie, and others like it, historical, but not history.

Typically, I think bravos' point goes without saying in a discussion of film, but in the context of this board and the current conversation, perhaps it does need to be said and/or debated.

[The Rap]

Sometimes I have to wonder if you aren't taking slow pills. Doesn't my response indicate clearly that I knew exactly what he was saying?

Now a better point; Where did I say it was history? Che wrote the book about what changed him and I happen to believe it because I saw many of the same things so am I expected to listen to Nick or Lavelle or anyone?

[Chris_Moderato]

Sometimes I have to wonder if you aren't taking slow pills. Doesn't my response indicate clearly that I knew exactly what he was saying?

Now a better point; Where did I say it was history? Che wrote the book about what changed him and I happen to believe it because I saw many of the same things so am I expected to listen to Nick or Lavelle or anyone?

When you start your post out by saying "What does that mean?", it leads one to believe you may not have understood what he was getting at.

I attempted to help make his point clearer, and suggest a potential discussion that could arise from the exchange. Not sure why you responded the way that you did, with the "slow pills" thing, whatever those are.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I don't get that either, Michael. When you ask a question like that, the normal response is to offer an answer to help you understand something you have questioned. The business about slow pills or wondering if someone's been drinking isn't neccesary. Do all of you New Yorkers discuss matters like this? Maybe it's just a cultural thing but way down here in the South it's possible to question someone without torching them in the process. I'm not trying to pile on, I'm just curious. I do know some guys from "Joisey" and all their discussions are confrontational back and forths. Kinda like one asks a question then "the dozens" breaks out.
Back to the original line of patter, it looks like the governor's actions are drawing a real response from the prez and the DC crowd. That may have been the real idea behind the over-the-top "solution" that was offered. Truthfully, at least in my opinion, there is a serious matter here that our federal government needs to get involved in. Mexico has to be made to understand that protecting our borders has to be a primary concern right now. With so many easy entries into that part of the nation unguarded or without even fences to deter anyone, our national security is at risk. As cold as this green light to invade the privacy of Hispanic-looking individuals sounds, something needs to be done. I think citizens should understand the reality of the dangers and accept this until something better is enacted. Legitimate citizens of Hispanic descent should recognize the threat, and understand that in order to have these rights, many times sacrifices must be made. If they are legit, it costs them a few minutes time. If they aren't, they get rousted and sent packing. It isn't fair, but most things in life aren't fair. Until the fed decides to make a stand and guard our borders this is the alternative.

[The Rap]

I understand Fred but it is something that I don't like leaving up to the average cop in Arizona. I don't know if you have been listening to Congressman Luis Guttierez (D-Ill) because he truly makes sense. This issue is something that W should be working on, IMO, as it was always important to him and as the former Governor of Texas he is very familiar with the challenges. I know you are all surprised that i just said that but it was one of the few things I agreed with as it clearly defined a "compassionate conservative."

[The Rap]

Chris, no problem.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

That's a good thought Michael, but dude is retired. Without anyone to push him into action, he's kicked back on the ranch enjoying plans for his library or something. The fact is this needs to be addressed in as much haste as the healthcare reform. This has become big news....you want Bush to put "Brownie" to work on it? Seriously, the prez needs to get someone to work on the situation ASAP.

[The Rap]

Fred it depends. Those serving him say that he has been writing his book from the day he left office. Interesting because when I first heard about the book the very first thought that occured to me was who ghost wrote it?

Library? How hard is it to put together three or four books? :>)

Besides Bush might do it to make up for what he didn't do during Katrina. And when you think about it what might work is for everyone to set aside all the right-left bs and realize we are all Americans and there is a lot at stake, especially if we want to stick to what made this country great.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

The problem there is that Bush doesn't think there's anything to make up for! I've been trying to get through the HBO series Treme, about the struggles of those left in the wake of Katrina. The show isn't enjoyable, but it has some interesting points. The central female character is a "left-over" from Deadwood, and actually curses more in Treme than she did in Deadwood! It's a little off-putting. John Goodman's character is an interesting bit of profane weirdness as well, but I guess they represent what was and is in the area. The show is bringing out one viewpoint of the fiascoes that were the aftermath of the storm.
Will the Bush book come with crayons? :D

[I Come in Peace]

The problem there is that Bush doesn't think there's anything to make up for! I've been trying to get through the HBO series Treme, about the struggles of those left in the wake of Katrina. The show isn't enjoyable, but it has some interesting points. The central female character is a "left-over" from Deadwood, and actually curses more in Treme than she did in Deadwood! It's a little off-putting. John Goodman's character is an interesting bit of profane weirdness as well, but I guess they represent what was and is in the area. The show is bringing out one viewpoint of the fiascoes that were the aftermath of the storm.
Will the Bush book come with crayons? :D

I know it is fun for you guys to make jokes about Bush being stupid but the man has a degree from Yale and a MBA from Harvard that is a lot more than I have ever achieved and I'm sure it is a lot more than you. No man with those two degrees can logically be called stupid or have their intelligence truly questioned.

[I Come in Peace]

If one doesn't want race to be a determining factor in immigration than that same person I would expect to oppose Affirmative Action.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Sorry Lavell, but my regard for Dubya's education claims are as sceptical in nature as my regard for his claims of military service. One his dad bought him into, the other out of. You will learn in time that words on a piece of parchment don't insure one from being any less of a dullard.
Regarding Affirmative Action, I have probably missed out on more opportunities than most here because of it. I have lived through it and I have this to say on the matter. I have personally lost income, better jobs and positions and status because of it. This has been for something I never did to anyone. It is still happening and there is little I can do about it. The many who gained from discriminating hiring practices mostly got away with it. Boo-Hoo. That said, I understand why the action was taken. For so many, missing out on jobs or advancements because of their race or sex was a given. Now the tables have turned. I won't be bitter about it or point a finger at it because some jackball tells me I should. I will consider the relief it gave millions and the opportunities it created for them and the progress it made possible in the USA. Who knows the number of brilliant people opening those doors has uncovered? My only resentment is when people are given jobs fulfilling quotas, that they aren't competent to do. I've worked some demanding, physical jobs in steel mills that women were just not physically able to do, but they got the jobs anyway. They normally were moved around to sweep up or similar lower paying type jobs, but kept at the rate on the tougher jobs. It wasn't fair to the rest of us then or now. That didn't change the fact that people deserve the chance. Too many were denied so much for so long....I accept that as just another hurdle. At some point, these things rectify themselves. Just look at how many business failures we've seen lately. That suggests getting a great job through "connections" isn't always the best thing either.

[The Rap]

I agree with Fred. I give a rat's ass about Bush's degrees. Up until he was about 40 he was the problem child of his family and Daddy was always pulling him through various problems. Getting into Yale was some feat huh? Consider who his grandfather and father were/are and you might realize what a joke that is. More importanly it always bothered me to no end that two cowards like Bush and Cheney who found individual ways to avoid going to Vietnam not only assailed more than one war hero but also took our country into an unwarranted war. My blood boiled on the day of the "Mission Accomplished" fiasco but not because of the sign but watching Bush play "dress-up" in a fighter combat ouitfit as if that would excuse him for his personal cowardice.If you want real heroes then watch "Band of Brothers" and even more so "The Pacific." I cry when I watch what those young heroes went through.

Fred, Treme centers around music and the love of a city and all its eccentricies. Goodman's character is the answer to stuff heard all over the country when people ask "why should New Orleans be rebuilt?" I loved that city having visited so many times. The poverty stricken peolle that comprise the 9th Ward are just average Americans with the same concerns and challenges other Americans have to deal with on a daily basis. But if you were there you would be pissed off at how the goivernment reacted to the results of Katrina and I am referring to government at all levels. But when you hungry does it matter which level of government is responsible?

The acting is superb and the creator of the series as well as so many of the actors in the show came over from their previous work "The Wire" which I consider an absolute masterpiece and the best TV ever shown.

[bravos4evr]

Sorry Lavell, but my regard for Dubya's education claims are as sceptical in nature as my regard for his claims of military service. One his dad bought him into, the other out of. You will learn in time that words on a piece of parchment don't insure one from being any less of a dullard.
Regarding Affirmative Action, I have probably missed out on more opportunities than most here because of it. I have lived through it and I have this to say on the matter. I have personally lost income, better jobs and positions and status because of it. This has been for something I never did to anyone. It is still happening and there is little I can do about it. The many who gained from discriminating hiring practices mostly got away with it. Boo-Hoo. That said, I understand why the action was taken. For so many, missing out on jobs or advancements because of their race or sex was a given. Now the tables have turned. I won't be bitter about it or point a finger at it because some jackball tells me I should. I will consider the relief it gave millions and the opportunities it created for them and the progress it made possible in the USA. Who knows the number of brilliant people opening those doors has uncovered? My only resentment is when people are given jobs fulfilling quotas, that they aren't competent to do. I've worked some demanding, physical jobs in steel mills that women were just not physically able to do, but they got the jobs anyway. They normally were moved around to sweep up or similar lower paying type jobs, but kept at the rate on the tougher jobs. It wasn't fair to the rest of us then or now. That didn't change the fact that people deserve the chance. Too many were denied so much for so long....I accept that as just another hurdle. At some point, these things rectify themselves. Just look at how many business failures we've seen lately. That suggests getting a great job through "connections" isn't always the best thing either.



You don't make up for indiscretions of the past with indiscretions in the present.... Affirmitave action was wrong and unconstitutional and IMO led to the very preumptive nature of many black folks in this country that the govt exists to give them a free ride. !@#$ that crap.

[bravos4evr]

I agree with Fred. I give a rat's ass about Bush's degrees. Up until he was about 40 he was the problem child of his family and Daddy was always pulling him through various problems. Getting into Yale was some feat huh? Consider who his grandfather and father were/are and you might realize what a joke that is. More importanly it always bothered me to no end that two cowards like Bush and Cheney who found individual ways to avoid going to Vietnam not only assailed more than one war hero but also took our country into an unwarranted war. My blood boiled on the day of the "Mission Accomplished" fiasco but not because of the sign but watching Bush play "dress-up" in a fighter combat ouitfit as if that would excuse him for his personal cowardice.If you want real heroes then watch "Band of Brothers" and even more so "The Pacific." I cry when I watch what those young heroes went through.

Fred, Treme centers around music and the love of a city and all its eccentricies. Goodman's character is the answer to stuff heard all over the country when people ask "why should New Orleans be rebuilt?" I loved that city having visited so many times. The poverty stricken peolle that comprise the 9th Ward are just average Americans with the same concerns and challenges other Americans have to deal with on a daily basis. But if you were there you would be pissed off at how the goivernment reacted to the results of Katrina and I am referring to government at all levels. But when you hungry does it matter which level of government is responsible?

The acting is superb and the creator of the series as well as so many of the actors in the show came over from their previous work "The Wire" which I consider an absolute masterpiece and the best TV ever shown.



OMG........ IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBLITY OF GOVT TO SOLVE PEOPLES PROBLEMS RAP!!!!!!!!!! You do realize that people got along just fine before there WAS a FEMA right? I mean when Camille hit here in 1969 and destroyed like 75% of the habitable structures people just got to work and fixed it themselves. The only thing that has changed is the attitude of the citizenry that govt is somehow our mommy and daddy......argh this weak whiny crap drives me crazy. Take personal responsibility for your actions , the results of said actions and for perpetuating your existance regardless of the obstacles thrown at you...... it's called being a GROWNUP.

Now I may have made some pretty dumb mistakes through the years involving drugs and such, but I always took responsiblity for my own mistakes and dealt with the challenges thrown my way even if they weren't my fault. The govt isn't a babysitter regardless of how lazy and poor you may be.

[Chris_Moderato]

...IMO led to the very preumptive nature of many black folks in this country that the govt exists to give them a free ride.

Generalizations get us nowhere.

[The Rap]

Nick, I admire your ability to fight back and overcome your demons. You would be right if this was totally a God created disaster and nothing else but as Goodman said in Treme, "Katrina was a god made disaster but what preceded it and then followed it was a man made catastrophe." It isn't just black people who are complaining because last time I looked I was white my friend and there are plenty of whites down in New Orleans who feel the same way.

But what gets me is this; "OMG........ IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBLITY OF GOVT TO SOLVE PEOPLES PROBLEMS RAP."

Really so what is the governments responsibility? To collect taxes from me which was quite sizeable during my lifetime and spending it on things that I don't believe in at least 70% of the time? And if the government allowed to unjustly let one group repress another isn't the government then expected to help the oppresssed one afterwards? It is stupid like when one of the Tea Party dopes said I want the government out of my health care and when asked if he liked Medicare the idiot said "Oh yea" proving he knows not what he thinks he does.

Also if the banks are ripping off the people isn't it the obligation and duty for the government to protect its own people?

[The Rap]

Oh and can you tell me if you were sitting right in front of me, face-to-face, that black people never suffered in this country and there was a justification for kidnapping them and making them slaves? Affirmative Action was abused by some but in esssence it was a way to have the blacks have an opportunity to play some "catch up" with their white counterparts.

[bravos4evr]

I could care less about what happend 150 years ago... sorry i just could care less. Not my problem, not my solution... Get off yer behind and go to work. If one person can rise out of the ghetto to make something of themselves anyone can.... There's no excuses!!!!

Need I remind everyone that life proceeded to happen fairly well without any govt entitlement programs for many many years. But then somebody decided that "oh we need to help this group here..." well intentioned sure, but ill advised. Because once the entitlement floodgates are open, every little special interest group wants to have a swim...... Now we have ridiculous taxes and ridiculous programs. and congressmen more interested in diverting fed funds to their districts than in the greater good of the nation at large.... it's annoying to say the least.

What do I think Govt should do? State Dept., Defense, Treasury, EPA, and..... well not much else. Everything else needs to be taken care of by individual states. Our country wasn't designed to be 50 states lorded over by an iron fisted Federal Govt you know.....

[bravos4evr]

Generalizations get us nowhere.


I said many not ALL. Besides, I'm right, the fact that you may choose to read what i said as mean spirited or a generalization that isn't true means very little. I grew up in a poor predominantly black neighborhood, I live in an area that is prolly around 60/40% white to black now.... No fancy suburbs here, I have seen with my own eyes both at home and at work the results of these entitlements. It was a mistake, it removed the incentive to achieve and to me thats a bigger crime against minorities than slavery was.

[Chris_Moderato]

Our country wasn't designed to be 50 states lorded over by an iron fisted Federal Govt you know.....

Putting aside the fact that our country wasn't designed to be 50 states in the first place, we did fight a little war awhile back that sort of determined which way things were going to go vis-a-vis the whole strong states vs. strong federal government argument.

I said many not ALL. Besides, I'm right, the fact that you may choose to read what i said as mean spirited or a generalization that isn't true means very little. I grew up in a poor predominantly black neighborhood, I live in an area that is prolly around 60/40% white to black now.... No fancy suburbs here, I have seen with my own eyes both at home and at work the results of these entitlements. It was a mistake, it removed the incentive to achieve and to me thats a bigger crime against minorities than slavery was.

It's still a generalization. Also, I never mentioned or inferred evidence of mean spiritedness in your post...not sure where that protestation came from.

[bravos4evr]

Kinda had a crossover in what you intended as if another member here had written it. Just realized that(and Iwas kinda pre-answering what i assumed some peoples response to that post would be) my bad boo!

That war could always happen again! we would win this time

[The Rap]

You would win this time? Nah, this time would be happy if you left. :D Also you can say you don't give a rat's ass about anything you want but what if the rest of us do give a rat's ass? Racism exists to this day. I can take you, a boy reared in Mississippi, to a couple of bars in the underbelly of Boston and you would see racism that would make your eyes pop out.

[The Rap]

Also do you realize that most of the programs you are bashing came about as a result of the people getting screwed by the sytem being used by the wealthy to step on their necks? Or do you believe in might means right? If you do then show me where that is said in the Constitution.

[luvdembravos]

More importanly it always bothered me to no end that two cowards like Bush and Cheney who found individual ways to avoid going to Vietnam ...

So with that line of reasoning, you're admitting that you're a coward too since you didn't volunteer to fight in Vietnam either, right? Let he who lives in a glass house throw the first stone.

[Chris_Moderato]

More importanly it always bothered me to no end that two cowards like Bush and Cheney who found individual ways to avoid going to Vietnam ...

So with that line of reasoning, you're admitting that you're a coward too since you didn't volunteer to fight in Vietnam either, right? Let he who lives in a glass house throw the first stone.

What is your story during the Vietnam years anyway, Rap? I've never heard you speak about what you were doing at that time.

[I Come in Peace]

According to the NYT a record number of black Republicans are running for Congress. I voted for a black Republican in the primary yesterday for my district. But oh and the rest of the GOP are racists.