The ChopNation Political Discussion Thread (keep it civil please)

[bravos4evr]

Also do you realize that most of the programs you are bashing came about as a result of the people getting screwed by the sytem being used by the wealthy to step on their necks? Or do you believe in might means right? If you do then show me where that is said in the Constitution.

This tired old cornball radical 1960's refrain amuses me.

[The Rap]

So with that line of reasoning, you're admitting that you're a coward too since you didn't volunteer to fight in Vietnam either, right? Let he who lives in a glass house throw the first stone.

Amazing because both Bush and Cheney were supporting the Vietnam War while I was marching against it because I felt it was unjustified. But I have never attacked any person who served there and the truth is I broke down and cried the first time I stood in front of the Vietnam's War Memorial Wall. But you would show half a brain if you addressed how two schmucks like that could assail John McCain and John Kerry

[The Rap]

According to the NYT a record number of black Republicans are running for Congress. I voted for a black Republican in the primary yesterday for my district. But oh and the rest of the GOP are racists.

Congrats! You win something for one of the most convoluted ways of thinking ever displayed.

[The Rap]

This tired old cornball radical 1960's refrain amuses me.

Be amused but answer the questions.

[bravos4evr]

welfare wasn't for people who got screwed by the system, it was intended to be a short term fill in the gap between jobs.... it became a generational lifestyle. Affirmative Action was an illegal undertaking designed to promote racism..... frigging stupid and set back minority cultural integration by 20 years. Social Security is a woefully under funded system that never seemed to take into account the rising average lifespans of Americans nor the population boom after WW2.
Medicare is another poorly operated hugely bloated budgetary nightmare. 29 million people on the rolls, 300 billion dollar budget.... yikes

[Dreamscape]

According to the NYT a record number of black Republicans are running for Congress. I voted for a black Republican in the primary yesterday for my district. But oh and the rest of the GOP are racists.
What, it took a black President for Republicans to accept black people as worthwhile candidates?

Oh, I kid.

[Dreamscape]

welfare wasn't for people who got screwed by the system, it was intended to be a short term fill in the gap between jobs.... it became a generational lifestyle. Affirmative Action was an illegal undertaking designed to promote racism..... frigging stupid and set back minority cultural integration by 20 years. Social Security is a woefully under funded system that never seemed to take into account the rising average lifespans of Americans nor the population boom after WW2.
Medicare is another poorly operated hugely bloated budgetary nightmare. 29 million people on the rolls, 300 billion dollar budget.... yikes
What is your sources on what welfare was initially intended for? According to what I've read, yes, it was intended for the jobless, but also the poor. To help them live out that long-ago dead dream of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, I guess.

It has always appeared to me, and my sister's time working with social services as a coordinator (or whatever they are called) helped to forge this theory into a belief, that those who use welfare as a lifestyle are not nearly the majority, but people will whine and complain about them like they are. No, the majority of people on welfare would rather they weren't. They would rather not work so many hours for nothing. They would rather have a nice place they could take care of. But life doesn't always allow that and don't give me any of that "if you want your life to be better, it will be." That naive belief strangles reform.

As for affirmative action...it works. It's not always fair, but then, was it fair for those who were traditionally disenfranchised to continue to be for no other reason than their gender, race, etc.? Most countries with some sort of democracy have embraced affirmative action (by different labels) and it, well, works.

Oh, and for Medicare. “[I]f you don’t [stop Medicare] and I don’t do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free." Oh, good ole Ronald Reagan. In 1961. Guess that didn't happen. Funny that it does sound quite a lot like conservative rhetoric about health care reform. Not that there aren't serious problems with Medicare, but its impact on the GDP or the budget isn't all that significant compared to the problems with, well, health care in general.

Agree with your thoughts on Social Security, though. See, we are buddies after all!

[luvdembravos]

But you would show half a brain if you addressed how two schmucks like that could assail John McCain and John Kerry


No, I was just wondering how you could criticize anyone for dodging Vietnam when you did the same thing???????

*edited*

[luvdembravos]

What, it took a black President for Republicans to accept black people as worthwhile candidates?

Oh, I kid.

Funny, it had the complete opposite effect on me once I saw how bad Obama was....

...but oh I kid

[I Come in Peace]

Funny, it had the complete opposite effect on me once I saw how bad Obama was....

...but oh I kid


haha that made me laugh. i don't care what race he is i don't like him b/c he is a liberal

[bravos4evr]

What is your sources on what welfare was initially intended for? According to what I've read, yes, it was intended for the jobless, but also the poor. To help them live out that long-ago dead dream of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, I guess.

It has always appeared to me, and my sister's time working with social services as a coordinator (or whatever they are called) helped to forge this theory into a belief, that those who use welfare as a lifestyle are not nearly the majority, but people will whine and complain about them like they are. No, the majority of people on welfare would rather they weren't. They would rather not work so many hours for nothing. They would rather have a nice place they could take care of. But life doesn't always allow that and don't give me any of that "if you want your life to be better, it will be." That naive belief strangles reform.

As for affirmative action...it works. It's not always fair, but then, was it fair for those who were traditionally disenfranchised to continue to be for no other reason than their gender, race, etc.? Most countries with some sort of democracy have embraced affirmative action (by different labels) and it, well, works.

Oh, and for Medicare. “[I]f you don’t [stop Medicare] and I don’t do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free." Oh, good ole Ronald Reagan. In 1961. Guess that didn't happen. Funny that it does sound quite a lot like conservative rhetoric about health care reform. Not that there aren't serious problems with Medicare, but its impact on the GDP or the budget isn't all that significant compared to the problems with, well, health care in general.

Agree with your thoughts on Social Security, though. See, we are buddies after all!

I saw it firsthand in my neighborhood growing up. Once HUD came and bought up half the houses from the landlords (it was a split on rentals and owned houses back then, say like mid to late 80's early 90's). All these welfare mothers moved in. They had boyfriends who supported them and lived there, but they still got their food stamps and welfare checks too. If the inspectors came by, oh of course the BF wasn't around.... I worked in a grocery store in high school and I saw sooooo many people using foodstamps to pay for carts of food and take it out to their brand new car.... It made me very cynical about govt entitlement programs.

[The Rap]

I may be taking a risk but Nick maybe your thinking is the way it is because you grew up in your neighborhood in the state of Mississippi. I don't know what the situation was there and then but it certainly isn't the same everywhere anyway.

Interesting comment luvdem, but you must be on drugs if you think I will ever discuss how I avoided going to Vietnam. The problem is you donl' dare try to answer the question about Bush and Cheney. And you know what the difference is? They had no problem sending the children of other off to die for their whatever. I have always been one who believed that war is the last resort. I doubt that ever occurs to either of your guys.

[The Rap]

Try this Nick; In NYC the conservatives back then always screamed about welfare mothers and why the men leave to prove that it is in thewir nature or something. That is until someone looked it up and the law was on the books stating that welfare checks would stop if the father was still in the house no matter what the financial conditions was. So the right wing knew about the law and the community was put in an either or choice poorly reflecting on itself.

[The Rap]

haha that made me laugh. i don't care what race he is i don't like him b/c he is a liberal

You just proved what I have said for the longest time. I would never say that about a conservative but you immediately shut off when it comes to a liberal.

[bravos4evr]

Try this Nick; In NYC the conservatives back then always screamed about welfare mothers and why the men leave to prove that it is in thewir nature or something. That is until someone looked it up and the law was on the books stating that welfare checks would stop if the father was still in the house no matter what the financial conditions was. So the right wing knew about the law and the community was put in an either or choice poorly reflecting on itself.

Well on that same note the left wrote the dang law so....... Not to mention that perhaps with a man living there and WORKING they wouldn't have required welfare anyway.

I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast the wealthiest part of the state per-capita. It's not like the middle of the state where you have old shacks and uber uber poor populations. It was a microcosom of a flawed system.

[The Rap]

Excuse me but where do you get the idea that the left wrote the law? Sometimes I wonder if it occurs to any of us that screw left and right but look at it vertically from up to down, from wealth to poverty or haves to have nots. Sort of like BP making an offer to those Gulf fisherman to sign a waiver for 5 thousand dollars.

[bravos4evr]

They made an offer, it's up to the individual fisherman to sign it or not. There's nothing evil there..... In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting less via class action lawsuits after the lawyers get their cut...

I'm gonna be as plain as I can Mike..... YOU use left and right when it suits you, but when I point out the FACT that the Democrats wrote and pushed welfare legislation through all of a sudden it's "not about elft and right" ummmmmm suuuurrrreeee.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I get you now, Lavell.....and some of your best friends are....

Nick, The mouth that roared, you use generalizations to explain your dislike of the social programs you mention. Affirmative Action was created to try and atone for the mistreatment of Americans under the old system. Minorities and women deserved chances in the workplace and this was the way it was determined they would have them. Like it or not, it worked. In some cases, as in every system, it was abused and taken advantage of by folks. Today there is no telling how many brilliant and competent Americans got a chance to shine because they finally got their shot. I don't know that AA is neccesary at this point in time. Equal Employment should be all the "levelling of the playing field" needed now. Besides, the old "It's who you know" system wasn't exactly terrific either.
Was Affirmative Action what caused you to be in the position you're in? Or is it just a convenient, much abused talking point about "other" people?

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Michael, I would tend to agree with Nick about the "left" writing in the welfare laws. You know the next time the GOP writes into law anything that helps the poor will be the first time. The democrats have pretty much sponsored all the bills aimed at improving the lot of the "have nots."

[The Rap]

They made an offer, it's up to the individual fisherman to sign it or not. There's nothing evil there..... In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting less via class action lawsuits after the lawyers get their cut...

I'm gonna be as plain as I can Mike..... YOU use left and right when it suits you, but when I point out the FACT that the Democrats wrote and pushed welfare legislation through all of a sudden it's "not about elft and right" ummmmmm suuuurrrreeee.

"but when I point out the FACT that the Democrats wrote " all I asked was you to tell me where you got that "fact?"

[bravos4evr]

I get you now, Lavell.....and some of your best friends are....

Nick, The mouth that roared, you use generalizations to explain your dislike of the social programs you mention. Affirmative Action was created to try and atone for the mistreatment of Americans under the old system. Minorities and women deserved chances in the workplace and this was the way it was determined they would have them. Like it or not, it worked. In some cases, as in every system, it was abused and taken advantage of by folks. Today there is no telling how many brilliant and competent Americans got a chance to shine because they finally got their shot. I don't know that AA is neccesary at this point in time. Equal Employment should be all the "levelling of the playing field" needed now. Besides, the old "It's who you know" system wasn't exactly terrific either.
Was Affirmative Action what caused you to be in the position you're in? Or is it just a convenient, much abused talking point about "other" people?



It isn't the job of Govt to atone for anything......

Here's what I have never understood about liberals. WHY ON EARTH DO YOU THINK GOVT MAKES EVERYTHING SO WONDERFUL? Especially when it doesn't pertain to you? Govt has consistently shown an inability to function in even a remotely efficient manner. If any of you had been in the military you would know this..... It's just a big mess. I work for the census right now and we have logistical and materials problems every single day caused by govt inadequicies at supplying us with the stuff we need... So we just wing it on our own and make it appear that it was done properly later.(and by properly I mean using official paperwork, cuz we ain't got enough of it)...

When I experience things like this I shudder at the thought of these bearucratic buffoons running anything ....

[Chris_Moderato]

It isn't the job of Govt to atone for anything......

Here's what I have never understood about liberals. WHY ON EARTH DO YOU THINK GOVT MAKES EVERYTHING SO WONDERFUL? Especially when it doesn't pertain to you? Govt has consistently shown an inability to function in even a remotely efficient manner. If any of you had been in the military you would know this..... It's just a big mess. I work for the census right now and we have logistical and materials problems every single day caused by govt inadequicies at supplying us with the stuff we need... So we just wing it on our own and make it appear that it was done properly later.(and by properly I mean using official paperwork, cuz we ain't got enough of it)...

When I experience things like this I shudder at the thought of these bearucratic buffoons running anything ....

It's such a "chicken-egg" dilemma. I mean, you're right in the sense that oftentimes, you find that government, be it federal, state, or local, is needlessly inefficient and filled with redundancies. Yet, for all that bloat, it seems like government workers find themselves lacking necessary funds and support.

I think federal, state and local government can do a lot of good. I think we should fund projects, programs and departments to the best of our ability. That's how I, personally, interpret the general welfare clause of the Constitution. I know others would disagree with that interpretation- fair enough.

Now I feel like I'm off-topic, and on the verge of writing a twenty-page paper that I don't have the energy to defend, so I'll just leave it at those two odd paragraphs.

[The Rap]

You know I watch a lot of TV and do watch MSNBC, CNBC, CNN and FOX as they are all successive on my remote. In fact I just finished LMAO watching Glen Beck talking about George Washington and breaking down crying. Anyone who doesn't realize that this is fake had better remember that it is either fake or all the drugs and liquor he took in his past.

What is really driving me crazy is that no one even mentions how much we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, money that could solve so many of the problems right here at home. The first one npo onne really knopws what will happen the monent our last soldier leaves and the 2nd on is one we should feel ashamed for as we are partners with a drug cartel.

[bravos4evr]

That's all well and good Mike, but what are we supposed to do? Just cut and run? Oops sorry guys I know we said we had yer back and all but...... gotsta head to da house!

Taliban would immediately take back Afghanistan and I fear Iraq would be in the midst of a Shiite/Sunni civil war and/or an invasion by Iran..... It could make the situation go from bad to worse in a heartbeat.

[luvdembravos]

In fact I just finished LMAO watching Glen Beck talking about George Washington and breaking down crying. Anyone who doesn't realize that this is fake had better remember that it is either fake or all the drugs and liquor he took in his past.

It's the drugs. I know because Beck's tears resemble the crocodile tears you shed whenever a celebrity dies ... and we all know how drugs affected your ability to reason. ;)

[luvdembravos]

What is really driving me crazy is that no one even mentions how much we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, money that could solve so many of the problems right here at home.

Oh, the liberal media reported it almost daily when Bush was president but now that Obama and the Dems are in power, they never mention the cost of the wars.

[The Rap]

Always turning it into the liberals fault? I don't care about right or left but maybe someone should just care about our people fighting over there and suffering here? What are you proud about our alliance with a drug cartel?


Nick, this is for you also. Want to stay there for the reasons you cited? Then let the Iraqis pay for it at least instead of hoarding away billions and consider my old idea; Let Haliburton, GE, Blackwater and every other corporation milking this for billions chip in and pay for it?

[The Rap]

It's the drugs. I know because Beck's tears resemble the crocodile tears you shed whenever a celebrity dies ... and we all know how drugs affected your ability to reason. ;)

Guess what? I think you owe me heartfelt apology for saying the tears I shed are crocodile tears. I really feel it when someone good who cared about others dies.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Nick, in the interest of the down-trodden, the citizens who were not getting a fair shake, exactly who do you think was going to open the doors to minorities? The business sector had already established that they weren't going to. Those Americans deserved a chance to have good jobs and the same opportunities as white males had been enjoying. If the government hadn't stepped in, who would've done the right thing? It's apparent by your posts that you have one concern, yourself. That's exactly how businesses were operating....no concern for anyone but themselves. They were a tight old gang of racists and sexists who would never have given those opportunities out, short of having their hands forced.
I know it's simplistic and from that old Bible you don't like, but perhaps when you start caring more for others, you'll find things improving in your life.

[bravos4evr]

You don't know me number one. So don't presume to think I don't give a crap about anyone..... Always making it personal.....

Number two, I can't get a job now because women or minorities get them first because of "diversity" well where;'s my mutha ****kin check at?

To be honest, i could care less about STRANGERS. I care about the people who impact my life .... I'm courteous to everybody ( and you might be surprised but I am one courteous mer fer) but as far as being concerned about their plight? hell ass mutha fudgin no! (HAMF NO for short....txt speak). When my life is going great and the salad days are here, then I can worry about strangers.... eff a stranger.

[The Rap]

I respect your honesty although I can't say I believe the same as you. If you see a child going hungry can you honestly say you don't give a sht? Blaming women and minorities for you not being able to get a job is hard to believe because you are right, we don't really know you. I think I know some guys like you but do I or Fred really know you? Does anyone on this site really know another person here?

[bravos4evr]

I don't get all this horse**** sympathy for children. **** children. Why does everybody have such a hard on for saving the damn children? There's to odamn many of us as it is. Most people who have children either spoil them rotten until they are snobby little bastards or ignore them completely. A few dead children here and there is good for our population. Maybe we need another round of polio.....thin the herd a little bit.

[The Rap]

Georegew Carlin has a bit about that but at least he was joking and talking about parents who clearly over do it. But Nick I am sorry to say that this last message yopu wrote sounds like you have been drinking a lot or smoking something because it sounds patently insane.

[The Rap]

and "thin the herd a bit" "need another round of polio" dear friend, you are obviously too young to remember what life was like for kids wwhen polio was still a scourge that scared the living hell out of us. And pray tell, why don't you go to the wealthy and say this and ask them to sacrifice their kids?Now do you see why what you said sounds so insane?

[Dreamscape]

I don't get all this horse**** sympathy for children. **** children. Why does everybody have such a hard on for saving the damn children? There's to odamn many of us as it is. Most people who have children either spoil them rotten until they are snobby little bastards or ignore them completely. A few dead children here and there is good for our population. Maybe we need another round of polio.....thin the herd a little bit.
It's Bravos vs. KB for the Generalizing King of the Ring~!!!~!~!~!

This Sunday at the Civic Center!!!! Be There!!!

[Chris_Moderato]

It's Bravos vs. KB for the Generalizing King of the Ring~!!!~!~!~!

This Sunday at the Civic Center!!!! Be There!!!

Followed the next week by the rematch, Bravos vs. KB, for the Crown of Guy Who Makes You Want to Put a Gun in Your Mouth and Pull the Trigger Until It Goes Click~!!!~!~!~!

[Chris_Moderato]

I don't get all this horse**** sympathy for children. **** children. Why does everybody have such a hard on for saving the damn children? There's to odamn many of us as it is. Most people who have children either spoil them rotten until they are snobby little bastards or ignore them completely. A few dead children here and there is good for our population. Maybe we need another round of polio.....thin the herd a little bit.

Easy now, Bravos. You never know if one of the six members of this site who actually still post here has lost a child at some point.

While I share your disdain for all the rotten, snobby little bastards out there, and their stupid parents, try to relax a little, man.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

You're right Nick, I don't know you. Personally. All I know is the you that you offer each of us a glimpse of in your selfish posts. Go back and read your own posts, bro. Most of them are about you. You don't give a dmn about this one or that one, you don't care about those or these. The only thing I get from your posts is that you care only about yourself. You don't care about anyone other than yourself. Most everything bad in your life is probably someone else's fault. Maybe you should watch "My Name is Earl," and see if his take on "Karma" hits home. While the program was a simple sit-com, it does have a redeeming quality. Earl learned the hard way that his life improved tremendously when he quit thinking solely of Earl.
Before you come back and say the attack on children was humor and you forgot to add a smiley, I'll offer that I hope you were kidding. I've been in the workforce several years longer than you and I have missed out on better jobs, raises and pay because of Affirmative Action and it's side-effects. It hurts, but I understand why it happened. I cannot truthfully state that I'm happy I missed out on what I should've received for my honest efforts, but I understand. This world revolves around me and you, not because of me or you. I know you hate hearing it, maybe because somewhere inside you is the awareness that it's true, but when you begin to care for others and think less about yourself, good things will happen. I'm glad to know you are courteous, Nick. So am I. I'm told it suggests character. I think it's just being considerate of others. It costs nothing and leaves most we encounter feeling a bit better about the world. As for you claiming I make everything personal, I take my lead from the posts. Yours are mostly written in a manner than draws the response to you, rather than whatever your railing on about. Personally, I'd like to see things go your way and see what a happy Nick would be like.

[luvdembravos]

I don't get all this horse**** sympathy for children. **** children. Why does everybody have such a hard on for saving the damn children? There's to odamn many of us as it is. Most people who have children either spoil them rotten until they are snobby little bastards or ignore them completely. A few dead children here and there is good for our population. Maybe we need another round of polio.....thin the herd a little bit.

Dude, I like you and agree with 90%+ of your posts but this one is plain wrong. Maybe you need to have a child some day and then realize what true love and selflessness is ... Children are innocent. Their parents may be complete losers and d-bags but that's not the child's fault.

[luvdembravos]

[COLOR=darkgreen] I've been in the workforce several years longer than you and I have missed out on better jobs, raises and pay because of Affirmative Action and it's side-effects. It hurts, but I understand why it happened. I cannot truthfully state that I'm happy I missed out on what I should've received for my honest efforts, but I understand.

It's "mighty white" of you to graciously accept being screwed in the past but I totally disagree with your line of thought. Two wrongs don't make a right. Why should you or any human being who is more qualified than another miss out on a job opportunity because of their skin color or race? Why should you be penalized for wrongdoings done by those before you? Reverse discrimination is just as ugly as race discrimination in my book. The best qualified person should get the job, period.

[Dreamscape]

It's "mighty white" of you to graciously accept being screwed in the past but I totally disagree with your line of thought. Two wrongs don't make a right. Why should you or any human being who is more qualified than another miss out on a job opportunity because of their skin color or race? Why should you be penalized for wrongdoings done by those before you? Reverse discrimination is just as ugly as race discrimination in my book. The best qualified person should get the job, period.
But the majority of times in question are two people, quite equal in their qualifications, and a minority person getting the job because of the added diversity that person brings. Rarely, the example of someone woefully unqualified for the job gets it because of his/her skin/gender/whatever.

But it's easy to blame that. There is always some nefarious reason someone misses out on a job. It's just easier that way.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

It's "mighty white" of you to graciously accept being screwed in the past but I totally disagree with your line of thought. Two wrongs don't make a right. Why should you or any human being who is more qualified than another miss out on a job opportunity because of their skin color or race? Why should you be penalized for wrongdoings done by those before you? Reverse discrimination is just as ugly as race discrimination in my book. The best qualified person should get the job, period.

I agree with some of your premise, ldb. There is no legitimate reason I should be penalized for my hard work and my efforts when they were noticeably better than someone else's. In my eyes, that's not "reverse discrimination," there's no such thing. It's discrimination, plain and simple. The best qualified should get those jobs, those raises, those promotions, I never argued that they shouldn't. I stated that I understand why things happened like they did and that I know I'm paying for wrongs I never even had the chance to enjoy the benefit of. Some long dead white guys are responsible and I'm getting to pay for it, along with thousands of other people pushed aside to atone for wrongs done by others. The simplest facts are these, it doesn't matter what's right, the decision was made and it's been challenged scores of times, and I have to play the hand that's dealt. I choose to look on it about the same way I do not being one of those lucky sobs who were born rich. It's just one more hurdle to get over in life. I guess I could choose to use it as a crutch and blame my lot on that rotten bit of law, but that serves no purpose.

Dream, regarding the way that AA has worked, in far more scenarios than not, more qualified people were pushed aside simply to fill quotas. The people up the ladder rarely give a crap which underling gets jobbed as long as the heat doesn't reach them. I have been denied jobs I had earned based on seniority and expertise so the company could ram a woman or minority into the job to meet a quota. If they care that some schmoe just off the street shouldn't be operating a crane or a motorcar, they don't show it. It's a travesty, it's unsafe in many cases but mostly, it's life in the real world. It's not right, it's just the way things are. I choose to move on and make the best of my situations. Dwelling on that stuff is what sends guys into their bosses offices with deer rifles...

[The Rap]

One thing needs to be considered in any discussion about Aff Action;The wrongs that the program is attempting to make right and rectify. When the playing field is both educational and opportunity level then there is no need for AA. But when things are not and especially when they are institutionalized then there is plenty reason to have AA. For every example there is of someone getting screwed by AA I bet there are at least 7-10 "good" stories to tell.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

My opinion is, the longer we continue to talk about race, the longer racism will persist. We are now getting to a point in America when the majority of people can't remember when institutionalized racism existed. Unless you are over 50 years old, you have no recollection of segregated restaurants or separate but equal bathrooms.

That being said, I believe an employer should be permitted to use whatever criteria he or she wants to when hiring employees. If I don't want to hire black people, it's my money and I should be able to make that decision. If I don't want to hire men, that should be my prerogative.

If the law continues to treat races and genders as different, then ordinary people will have more incentive to do the same.

[The Rap]

[B]Ok so let's say you are allowed to do that. Next thing you know all businessmen in the area want to do the same thing. And it grows expotentially. So as far as individual choice you make a good point but for society on the whole? Besides, racism isn't just related to work and jobs. What about education? And I am talking about from the time an individual is a small child? There used to be "Separate but Equal" school systems in the segregated South. Problem was they were separate but never equal. Legally that doesn't exist anymore. But in reality it is achieved by much less funding in schools located in poorer neighborhoods. Sometimes a community gets lucky when an individual emerges and thinks outside the box and helps the youth. But by and large we have an educational system that approaches apartheid and it is no longer a pure black and white schism but rather an anti-poor system which promises the world to veeryone but only gives the opportuniy to achieve that to far less than everybody. /B]

[GeneGarberForPrez]

Ok so let's say you are allowed to do that. Next thing you know all businessmen in the area want to do the same thing. And it grows expotentially. So as far as individual choice you make a good point but for society on the whole?

Why do you assume that every single businessman in a certain area will make a decision to discriminate on the basis of race or gender?

[The Rap]

I didn't assume anything buddy. Fact is if yoiu have the right to do that then every othe rbusinessman has the same rights, right? So then carry it forward and you get what I described in the rest of my message.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

I didn't assume anything buddy.

Ok so let's say you are allowed to do that. Next thing you know all businessmen in the area want to do the same thing. And it grows expotentially. So as far as individual choice you make a good point but for society on the whole?

Then I must have completely misunderstood your point. Let me reword your quote to more clearly convey what I thought you meant.

OK so let's say you are allowed to legally discriminate on the basis of race or gender. Next thing you know all businessmen in the area want to discriminate on the basis of race and gender. And it grows exponentially.

In the context of our current discussion, I have no idea how else your original statement could be interpreted. It is clear that in my interpretation of your response, an assumption that "all businessmen in the area" would use race or gender as a factor in employment decisions would have to be made.

I anxiously await your response.


Buddy.

[The Rap]

You said you wish you believe X can be done; if you are right then it is the right of each individual and then read the rest of what I wrote.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

I didn't assume anything buddy. Fact is if yoiu have the right to do that then every othe rbusinessman has the same rights, right? So then carry it forward and you get what I described in the rest of my message.

The only way you get what you described in the rest of your message is if you assume that "all businessmen in the area" will discriminate on the basis of race or gender. Which was the crux of my original question:

Why do you assume that every single businessman in a certain area will make a decision to discriminate on the basis of race or gender?

Just because businessmen are given the right to do something doesn't mean they will actually do it. In order to arrive at your eventual conclusion, you have to ASSUME that businessmen will act in a certain way.

Am I missing something here?

[The Rap]

Not at all but consider this; If you make it available you have to be ready for all to do the same thing especially when you know there will be people on the sideline pushing more and more people to do it. Bottom line is you are skirting a dangerous slope if you ask me.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

Not at all but consider this; If you make it available you have to be ready for all to do the same thing especially when you know there will be people on the sideline pushing more and more people to do it. Bottom line is you are skirting a dangerous slope if you ask me.

Putting aside the fact that you still have not addressed the issue, do you actually believe what you just wrote?

Using this logic, we should probably stop selling alcohol because everybody might decide to get drunk at the same time, and there won't be anybody left to make a rational decision. We should also ban abortion, because if all pregnant women for the next 60 years decide to have one, our species will become extinct.

Why do you make it so hard to have a rational, nay, any kind of conversation with you?

I'm going to stop responding to any of your comments. It is a fruitless effort, and it drives me crazy.

[Agent-X-]

I don't get all this horse**** sympathy for children. **** children. Why does everybody have such a hard on for saving the damn children? There's to odamn many of us as it is. Most people who have children either spoil them rotten until they are snobby little bastards or ignore them completely. A few dead children here and there is good for our population. Maybe we need another round of polio.....thin the herd a little bit.

Ask and you shall receive.

[The Rap]

GeneG I don't know why you found the need to get insulting because I am trying to explain it to you. All I am saying is you are right and could do that then there would be many others who would decided to do the same and it would grow and eventually hurt society and community on the whole. Seems simple to me.

[luvdembravos]

So the CBO just admitted that the healthcare reform bill will cost $115 billion more than originally projected? No doubt they cooked the books for Obama but who should be surprised by this revelation? This adminstration is so corrupt but thanks to the MSM, most everything is swept under the rug.

November can't come fast enough for me.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Funny how the corruption is always so much worse when it's happening under someone else's party control. Why don't more people look at what has happened leading up to all of this and figure out that there is plenty of blame to go around?
If the best we can do is to divide and shout against the other side, we're totally losing our grasp on reality. These clusterbangs haven't just begun to occur since Obama took over, they are a continuation of mismanagement, malfeasance and disregard for the common good.
We should all be like Diogenes, on the lookout for an honest man or woman we can count on.

[KB 34]

Speaking of November there has been some good news in the primaries. First off is Utah where RINO Senator Bobb Bennett has been defeated in the republican primaries. Bennett stood for nothing and won't be missed by me. On the democrat side in the Pennsylvania Senate race Arlen Spector is in some trouble. If you forgot he was the republican who switched parties to give Obama a fillibuster proof majority in the senate after it became clear the republicans wanted to throw him out of office. Challenging him in the primaries is democrat Rep Jon Sestak, who is overtaking him in the polls. According to stories I've seen Obama is supporting Sestak over Spector. I say good riddance to a second useless senator. I'm optimistic that both parties will undergo some much needed shaking up between now and November. Don't forget for a second that earlier this spring pollsters reported approximately 40% of the Tea Party movement is democratic. The American people are ticked and ready to clean house and it's about time.

[Agent-X-]

Come November, I intend to not vote for any Republicans or Democrats.

I wish everyone else would do the same. I wish everyone else would make it a conscious effort to not vote for anyone affiliated with these two parties. Then we would be speaking loudly enough to be heard.

[luvdembravos]

Regardless, if this was $150M billion in discretionary spending for the military, you wouldn't make one peep, methinks.


$150 million billion? Can Obama print that much money? Methinks he can. ;)

[luvdembravos]

Its a total waste of time talking to luv. He doesn't hear a word anyone else has to say. he's worried about the spending on needed programs in the country but blindly gives a rubber stamp to two wars that is ripping the economic strength of our country on a regular basis.

Nope ... that would be your boy, Mr. Wonderful, who is blindly rubber stamping the two wars. And don't say he isn't because he's executing the same game plan as GWB. Funny too, how the MSM hasn't said much against the wars since say, oh about 20 January 2009.

[Dreamscape]

Nope ... that would be your boy, Mr. Wonderful, who is blindly rubber stamping the two wars. And don't say he isn't because he's executing the same game plan as GWB. Funny too, how the MSM hasn't said much against the wars since say, oh about 20 January 2009.
Try a year before. The media has ignored the wars since the surge began. But, again, I guess it's convenient to blame the old standby.

[The Rap]

Be careful about the usage of the word "boy" or else it will start trouble here. "Rubber stamping two wars like W?" In your dreams man. W started those wars one, justified and the other for unjustifiable reasons. I have criticised Obama for the wars or maybe you haven't been reading my messages. He is making the same mistake that W made in that he is trusting and leaving it up to the generals. There is a reason why this country was built on the idea that the Commander-in-Chief was always a civilian. If anything he should nhave has the same guts Truman did when he called back McCarthur.

Oh and I have seen Chris, Keith, Ed, Dylan and Rachel all take plenty of shots against the war with Obama at the helm.

[Chris_Moderato]

Nope ... that would be your boy, Mr. Wonderful, who is blindly rubber stamping the two wars. And don't say he isn't because he's executing the same game plan as GWB. Funny too, how the MSM hasn't said much against the wars since say, oh about 20 January 2009.

If you have such a problem with the behavior of the mainstream media, why do you pay it any mind?

Oh and I have seen Chris, Keith, Ed, Dylan and Rachel all take plenty of shots against the war with Obama at the helm.

Ugh...you're on a first name basis with these people, are you? Just seeing their first names together like that, they sound like a group of douche-nozzles.

Nope ... that would be your boy, Mr. Wonderful

Seriously, you have got to find another term to describe the President. This is Mr. Wonderful:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x310/The_Ultimate_Wrestling_Gallery/O%20-%20P/PaulOrndorff003.jpg

This is Mr. Fantastic:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/75689-61456-mr-fantastic_super.jpg

This is Mr. Awesome:
http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs8/300W/i/2005/315/7/d/Mr__Awesome_by_Known_Prime_by_treehousesociety.jpg

And these are both Mr. Perfect:
http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/200px-wwf_mr_perfect.jpghttp://helenafrithpowell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/mr-perfect.jpg

Maybe just...
http://kknupp.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/mrpresident.jpg

[Agent-X-]

Hey! What do you know! Looks like someone else shares bravos4evr's feelings on children!

Follow the link. (http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/05/mary_jane_lopez_happy_that_2-y.php)

[The Rap]

Chris, I really liked your post but have to ask about the line directed at me; Do you really think it was necessary? Isn't it like nitpicking?

[The Rap]

BTW luv, I donlt like what barack is doing in Iraq or Afghanistan. But to equate what he is doing to what W did? C'mon, you must have some brains and a sense of fairness. I said it even before Obama was elected; It will take years before all the harm that Bush wrought can be rectified.

[luvdembravos]

Thanks Chris, great pics...but I'm having a difficult time distinguishing between those who are real and those who are make-believe. :confused:

Oh, I get it now ... they're all fakes! ;)

[Chris_Moderato]

Thanks Chris, great pics...but I'm having a difficult time distinguishing between those who are real and those who are make-believe. :confused:

Oh, I get it now ... they're all fakes! ;)

Ha ha. Nice.

[luvdembravos]

So Obama, who claims he supports Arlen Specter, refuses to go to PA to campaign for him because he doesn't want to be associated with a wishy-washy loser ....OR is it that Specter doesn't want Obama anywhere near him because he knows the President's endorsement is the kiss of death? (BTW, I'll go with the latter ;) )

This is good stuff...and it looks like Specter may finally get what he's deserves as he personifies what is wrong with Washington today.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

That's a little harsh, ldb....no way only one guy can personify all that!

[Dreamscape]

Alright, everyone.

Unless you are debating an actual political subject, your comment will be deleted. No warning, no editing, no taking out an unneeded personal slam here or there, just deleted. As much as I may want to wash my hands of the whole thread, I'll play up the roll of Daddy. So, keep it on the subject.

I'll start by deleting the recent string. And mods/admins, make sure I keep on the subject as well and don't stray into personal land.

[The Rap]

Sounds good and thanks Dream. I can't get over how the Republicans are trying to paint last night's results as looking good for their cause. Specter isn't an issue no matter what anyone says because once you make the switch of parties and they have a tape of you saying openly that you did it because you want to get elected, you are dead in the water right there. Rand Paul's victory was a victory for the Tea Baggers but he beat a Republican who had the backing of most Republican leaders. And for a Democratic candidate to keep John Murtha's seat in the blue when the constituency is red should give Republicans pause

[bravos4evr]

He is making the same mistake that W made in that he is trusting and leaving it up to the generals. There is a reason why this country was built on the idea that the Commander-in-Chief was always a civilian. If anything he should nhave has the same guts Truman did when he called back McCarthur.

Oh and I have seen Chris, Keith, Ed, Dylan and Rachel all take plenty of shots against the war with Obama at the helm.


Macarthur was right tho...... Truman didn't want the historical stigma of both Hiroshima/Nagasaki as well as a full scale war in Asia....

[luvdembravos]

Sounds good and thanks Dream. I can't get over how the Republicans are trying to paint last night's results as looking good for their cause. Specter isn't an issue no matter what anyone says because once you make the switch of parties and they have a tape of you saying openly that you did it because you want to get elected, you are dead in the water right there. Rand Paul's victory was a victory for the Tea Baggers but he beat a Republican who had the backing of most Republican leaders. And for a Democratic candidate to keep John Murtha's seat in the blue when the constituency is red should give Republicans pause

So are you arguing that last night was good for the Dems cause? I certainly hope not.

This is the bottom line: Last night was a backlash against incumbents (GOP or Dems...it didn't matter) and since most of the incumbents in Washington these days are Dems, it ain't looking good for their party come November.

I don't see how Chris, Keith, Ed, Dylan , Rachel and Rap could spin it any other way.

[Dreamscape]

While incumbents are definitely in trouble and your theory does have some basis of truth to it, it's not as if we will see massive change come Novemeber. It will largely be the typical midterm election. The President's party will see some loses, but in this case, what will be of more interest is if the Republicans can actually take advantage. Just lacking a "D" beside your name will not get you elected. With third parties and libertarians fighting the good fight as well, I think the Republicans will be in the wash because they have done nothing to say "hey, we aren't part of the problem, people."

Regardless, I can't see a 1994 hitting. They will gain, but much like the Democrats during the Bush years, it will take time to overtake the majority party when your party is just as disliked.

[luvdembravos]

I'm all for new blood in Congress as long as it leans to the right and is against big government and wasteful spending. I don't care what they're called: tea-baggers, libertarians, blue dog democrats, whatever...as long as they can combine their votes with the GOP and stop Obama's "Change I Can't Believe In". Yee haw! Giddy-up!

[Freddy_Ballgame]

These guys don't lean to much more than getting into office and staying there. On both sides. Once in office they do whatever they can to stymie any program or idea from the other side. The ideology tags as well as the political party tags are only used to preoccupy voters. Clean house and try to find some legitimate individuals that want to improve our nation and serve John Q. Public. Best of luck....

[The Rap]

A lot depends on what the person is and not the ID he cloaks himself with. Rand Paul mentioned "Tea Baggers" 9 separate times in his victory speech. Problem is that his beliefs are tantamount to pure racism and a rewrite of history. Amazing that he flip flpped the very next day becauase all it means is that big honchos in the party called him and said "Are you out of your mind? Don't share your views with anyone and just stress anti-government and then when elected you can do whatever you want." My question is what does his dad Ron think of all this? Does he share the same beliefs? I'll bet he doesn't and, although happy, is embarrassed by his own kid.

What spin luv? My feeling is that no one gained a thing and all the smug right wing pundits who are claiming victory are nuts.

[Dreamscape]

http://deadspin.com/5545333/former-basketball-player-runs-for-congress-crazily

I don't really care that he's a nut who is a Republican. What does concern me is that someone so bat-crazy can also grab a major party nomination for Congress.

[The Rap]

Its called "America" land of opportunity and a populace easily manupulated.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

http://deadspin.com/5545333/former-basketball-player-runs-for-congress-crazily

I don't really care that he's a nut who is a Republican. What does concern me is that someone so bat-crazy can also grab a major party nomination for Congress.

Well, you can step back from your ledge, because in actual fact he does not have a major party nomination for Congress. He is a contender in Tennessee's 9th District congressional race. Not only did he not win the primary (which isn't until August 5th), he doesn't even have the Republican Party endorsement.

[Dreamscape]

Well, you can step back from your ledge, because in actual fact he does not have a major party nomination for Congress. He is a contender in Tennessee's 9th District congressional race. Not only did he not win the primary (which isn't until August 5th), he doesn't even have the Republican Party endorsement.
My bad. I took what deadspin.com said too literally, I suppose.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

Wow! Did you really delete that part of my post? So now sarcasm is no longer allowed?

And you wonder why the site is dying?

That'll do it for me folks. No need for me to stick around. A-B-CYA!

[Dreamscape]

Sarcasm is fine. Personal digs lead to me getting messages about how people are not so nice. Oh, well, it's either go strictly by the rules or just wash my hands of the entire thread/forum. You tell me what you think is best. At this point, I wouldn't mind banning political talk from the entire board.

[luvdembravos]

At this point, I wouldn't mind banning political talk from the entire board.

Then you should. Really, you should because it's pretty insulting to have one's free speech modified or deleted. It's one thing to be nasty (which I agree has no place on any board) but quite another to be sarcastic. Too bad some people aren't smart enough to know the difference.