The Rap's Celebrity RIP Thread

[The Rap]

I remember college when rock and roll ruled the day and was dominated by the Beatles, Stones, The Who, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane and Jimi Hendrix. But in the midst of that were the folk singers and baladeers who wrote and sang some of the most beautiful music I ever heard. Among them were Tom Rush, Paul Williams, Joan Baez, Harry Chapin and then there was Kenny Rankin. Kenny soft melodies and version of "Come Away Melinda" would tear my heart out each time I heard it.

Kenny passed away this past Sunday at the age of 69 from lung cancer. May he rest in peace and hopefully be rewarded for all the joy he brought into the world.

[The Rap]

Ed Mcmahon died today at age 86 after suffering for two years from bone cancer and repeated bouts with pneumonia. He was Johnny Carson's sidekick for over 30 years and will always be remembered for that. More than anything Ed was like this constant that was sort of always there throughout the lives of myself and many others. May he rest in peace.:(

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I grew up watching The Tonight Show, with Johnny and Ed and nothing has approached it. Hard to believe the voice that started each show with a "Here's Johnny" (Yep, that's where that catch-phrase from the original "The Shining" flick came from) and the oft-heard "HIIIYO!" has been silenced. Big Ed was a marine fighter pilot and the best "second banana" ever. Rest in peace.

[absintheofmalaise]

Finally got on the board in my Death Pool. Thanks Big Guy.

[The Rap]

This is a case where we can rejoice and make a toast to a fine lady who finally succumbed to the cancer ravaging her body. Farrah will always be remembered as a bright light and gorgeous lady who suffered greatly near the end. May she finally rest in peace.

[wordslayer©]

Best thread name of 2009.

[luvdembravos]

Best thread name of 2009.

"RAP the RIPper" I like it.

[BraveFan]

Man for a Second there I thought this thread was about Michael dying, good thing he is still alive.

[Agent-X-]

Man for a Second there I thought this thread was about Michael dying, good thing he is still alive.

Me too. My heart sank when I saw it.

Totally misleading! Glad you're not RIP yet Rap.

[Chris_Moderato]

Whoa. Sorry about that. I didn't even read it like that when I combined the threads. D'oh!

Besides, we all know Rap will outlive us all.

[Hobbes]

He has become the ChopNation Grim Reaper, hasn't he?

[The Rap]

LOL I will continue to be the obitiary guy here ok? I do it as a service and tribute to those who pass away.

[BraveFan]

Add another to the list: TMZ is reporting the king of Pop Michael Jackson has died from a massive heart attack.

[Chris_Moderato]

Wow. According to TMZ, Michael Jackson has died (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/) as well. Not sure if this has been verified elsewhere, but...Wow.

[bravos4evr]

They seem to be the only one saying that all the big news outlets are just saying he was rushed to the hospital. Well, the children of LA are a little bit safer now.

[Chris_Moderato]

Yep, LA Times and NBC confirming it now. Michael Jackson, dead at 50.

[The Rap]

I just came on the computer so you guys beat me to this. This is a really tough one to comment on because of the controversies surrounding his life and lifestyle. But one thing I never can thank Michael for enough is the period in the 80's when he was truly the king of pop. I will always remember his performance of Billy Jean in front of his peers, one that floored the entire country. He was the cutest of the Jackson Five and turned out to be the weirdest.

A true story. My daughter is going to be 28 at the end of July so she was about 8 or 9 when this actually happened. I took her down to our basement and covered the name and title to a specific album which was Michael Jackson's "Rock With You." The picture of Michael on that album is one of the best ever taken of him and probably the last one in which he looked "normal." No matter what I hinted or said my daughter couldn't believe the handsome kid was Michael Jackson.

May he rest in peace.

[Chris_Moderato]

I just came on the computer...

This is a family website, sir. Please.

[wordslayer©]

This is a family website, sir. Please.

where's that drum icon that Hobbes always uses?

[Hobbes]

This is a family website, sir. Please.
http://home.comcast.net/~Kona_Kane/Smilies/rimshot.gif

[Wahoo]

You know, I was never a HUGE fan of Michael Jackson, but he did make some really good music, and there was is no doubt that he was a revolutionary artist. As Rap pointed out, his work in the 80s and early 90s was dynamic, fun stuff. On many levels, I equate him with Elvis. And if there had not been all that controversy over his personal life, I'd think his legacy would have been larger. I don't know what's true and what isn't. Part of me think he got a bad rap for the some assumptions that were made about his lifestyle. He did seem like a legitimately nice guy in some ways. On the other hand, he was a very weird dude. I don't know what to make of it, but I was definitely saddened at today's news.

[BraveFan]

Even though he became a total freak it is sad that we lost the second greatest entertainer in history (Elvis is number 1). I always enjoyed his talent but thought it was hilarious that he had a song saying it doesn't matter if your black and white considering he changed from being a black guy to a white guy.

[bravos4evr]

Even though he became a total freak it is sad that we lost the second greatest entertainer in history (Elvis is number 1). I always enjoyed his talent but thought it was hilarious that he had a song saying it doesn't matter if your black and white considering he changed from being a black guy to a white guy.

Really? 2nd greatest entertainer in history? Maybe to sheeple loser no culture douchebags!!! Good luck with that!

[absintheofmalaise]

Wow! I'm still in shock over this. Three people had the daily double in the Death Pool. Farrah and MJ. I wasn't one of them.

[luvdembravos]

Over the past 40 years, I can’t think of anyone whose life was as public as Michael Jackson’s. He was always in the news whether he was doing something great (star of the Jackson 5, so many # 1 albums and songs, ground-breaking videos, charity work, etc.); doing something weird (transforming his appearance, sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber, building Neverland Ranch, marrying Lisa Marie Presley, going on irresponsible spending sprees); or behaving badly (several pedophile accusations, pill popping incidents, hanging his child from a balcony; amassing great debt). He was a godsend for the tabloids and entertainment media. People of my generation are probably more shocked and saddened by the news, not because everyone adored the guy, but because so many of us grew up with him and watched his every move unfold before us.

Generally, I don’t care for entertainers and Hollywood types because I think they get too much credit and adoration for the work that they do. But losing Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett on the same day really made me sad. Those two were icons and the mere mention of their names takes me back to specific stages of my life … and serves to remind me how old I’m getting.

[The Rap]

I can relate totally to what you just wrote. Word now is that he was taking morphine and had a huge dose within the past few days. It is hard to feel sorry for someone like that. I remember feeling enmity towards him when he was turning from a black man to a white freak. I always felt one should be proud of whoever they are and came from etc. Trying to change colors I watched in a funny movie years ago when Godfrey Cambridge played a black man who changed into a white man or was it the other way around?

[Braves N 10]

Athough the guy was kind of weird, I am depressed by the news of his death. The guy is a legend if you ask me.

[The Rap]

Definitely but also as one of the most incredibly talented and beset with major problems

[BraveFan]

Really? 2nd greatest entertainer in history? Maybe to sheeple loser no culture douchebags!!! Good luck with that!

I wasn't saying he was second in my book but in listening to numerous stories that is what they are saying across the web and on tv.

[bravos4evr]

I wasn't saying he was second in my book but in listening to numerous stories that is what they are saying across the web and on tv.

The masses ( especially the voracious media) like to blow up the importance of cultural icons when they die suddenly. Heck the doors are an okay band, but Jim Morrison dies and crazy wold and indian people have been slobbin that knob for 40 years! It's okay, but not genius stuff they did!

Kurt Cobain is point two, mediocre band, got a big break, milked it and then he realized what a sellout douche he was becoming and he turned to heroine to deal with it and eventually he axed himself. It sux, but......

[The Rap]

Overly simplistic view of Cobain and a total lack of knowledge about Jim Morrison. I have no idea why Jamie would thank him for that post.

[argentina brave]

Overly simplistic view of Cobain and a total lack of knowledge about Jim Morrison. I have no idea why Jamie would thank him for that post.

i thought it was funny, that's all...

i 'got' the doors when i was in college, but they don't age well for me. i mean, a drunk, mediocre poet who ate acid. he's no keats, at least to me, he isn't. i like 'the soft parade' at about 3 am and i think 'l.a. woman' is good driving music.

[Chris_Moderato]

Kurt Cobain used heroin many, many years before anyone had ever heard of Nirvana- just for the sake of accuracy.

[Chris_Moderato]

Hi, Billy Mays here! (http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/local/story/TV-pitchman-Billy-Mays-found-dead-at-Florida-home/fFyOkD1PQkWbJ5NCaJZEAA.cspx)

[ScooterBrave]

He has become the ChopNation Grim Reaper, hasn't he?

Yeah, we need to make this a sticky...

[Wahoo]

Yeah, we need to make this a sticky...

Well, we won't need to if all of these celebs keep kicking the bucket. RIP Williams Mays.

[slowride]

Overly simplistic view of Cobain and a total lack of knowledge about Jim Morrison. I have no idea why Jamie would thank him for that post.

Simplistic? More like callous and inaccurate.

It also screams of bitterness; although I can't put my finger on the source. Maybe their enduring popularity?

All these people dieing...I care about Michael Jackson the least. He was a child molester. Perhaps if I ever liked his music I would feel differently. I'm only 26 so I think I missed the boat on Michael.

Tough news about Billy Mays though! That guys was actually funny. I guess the torch for King of Infomercials has been passed to the shamwow guy?

[The Rap]

I have a different view of Michael Jackson and child molestation after thinking it over in the last few years. I donlt think he molested any of the young boys because I believe he was basically asexual and wouldn't even know what to do. Still, it is inappropriate, to say the least, for any man over 40 to invite a young boy into his bed.

Chris brought up an excellent point about Kurt Cobain because he was a druggie well before he became famous.

The Doors to me were very good but somewhat of an enigma. They started off great but later on I think the drugs went to Morrison's head and the trouble began. Still "When The Music's Over," "The Soft Parade," and especially "The End," will forever remain true classics. I remeber the story about how The End was recorded. Jim was totally stoned and they turned off all the lights in the studio and just lit a few candles. Word is he almost went insane from that one session.

[bravos4evr]

I have a different view of Michael Jackson and child molestation after thinking it over in the last few years. I donlt think he molested any of the young boys because I believe he was basically asexual and wouldn't even know what to do. Still, it is inappropriate, to say the least, for any man over 40 to invite a young boy into his bed.

Chris brought up an excellent point about Kurt Cobain because he was a druggie well before he became famous.

The Doors to me were very good but somewhat of an enigma. They started off great but later on I think the drugs went to Morrison's head and the trouble began. Still "When The Music's Over," "The Soft Parade," and especially "The End," will forever remain true classics. I remeber the story about how The End was recorded. Jim was totally stoned and they turned off all the lights in the studio and just lit a few candles. Word is he almost went insane from that one session.



Being incoherent doesn't mean that you have depth. I like some Door's stuff, but if he doesn't die they are a footnote in 60's music history.

True Cobain did heroin beforehand, but he had really slowed down until the pressures of celebrity started to get to him. He also felt really guilty because he knew of so many bands he thought more deserving that never made it big. He seemed like a cool guy and I'm not dissing him. But I came up in that scene of music(independent, punk....whatever you wanna call it) and Nirvana were always considered a decent but second tier band . But they were easily spruced up for the masses.....

I think he sold out and it bothered him a little bit. Not to mention he hated stardom and just wanted to play.

[Andy G.]

I sometimes wonder if The Doors would have been remembered the same way if Morrison didn't die so young. I love The Doors, but it's never been about 'Morrison the poet' to me. I just love the music. I've listened to The Doors long before I listened to most of the other stuff I listen to now, but I hear them in a lot of artists.

I think a lot of the great new wave and post punk bands of the late seventies and the eighties were heavily influenced by The Doors. I'm not a musician or an expert of any kind, and I don't always try to pick out the influences of a certain band, but I hear The Doors in bands like The Cars, Joy Division(and not just because of Ian Curtis' voice), and The Cure.

[Lauren T.]

I have a different view of Michael Jackson and child molestation after thinking it over in the last few years. I donlt think he molested any of the young boys because I believe he was basically asexual and wouldn't even know what to do. Still, it is inappropriate, to say the least, for any man over 40 to invite a young boy into his bed.
I always thought he was asexual too, and I agree that it was definitely very wrong of him to have "slumber parties" with these boys...and I simply don't think he touched any of them inappropriately. Was he a weird dude? Yeah. That happens when a person is abused for years and years. :no: Do I think he molested the kids? No.

[The Rap]

Nick, its all about the music. The beauty of rock and roll and all that is attached is that it is different strokes for different folks. Part of my apartment (the bathroom and the hallway right outside it) is dedicated to artists and bands and there is a method to my madness. In the bathroom one wall had pics of those prior to 1980 while the other wall has it 1980-present. The hallway is what I call the hall of fame. The Beatles dominate with the most pics but also included there are Bob Dylan, Elvis, Buffalo Springfield, Bruce Springsteen, U2, Pink Floyd, Fletwood Mac, Sting, Simon and Garfunkel, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Carlos Santana, David Bowie, The Eagles, The Who, The Dave Matthews Band, The Bee Gees, James Taylor, Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones, and Linkin Park. Pics are 4x6, 5x7 and 8x10. There is also the back of a door that is dedicated to Neil Young and Stephen Stills and all the bands that came out of Buffalo Springfield. A third wall in the bathroom is purely made up of 5x7 size pics of those who one could easily be argued to be in the hall of fame area. Included there are REM, Bon Jovi, Hall and Oates, and The Doors and many others.

[luvdembravos]

Nick, its all about the music. The beauty of rock and roll and all that is attached is that it is different strokes for different folks. Part of my apartment (the bathroom and the hallway right outside it) is dedicated to artists and bands and there is a method to my madness. In the bathroom one wall had pics of those prior to 1980 while the other wall has it 1980-present. The hallway is what I call the hall of fame. The Beatles dominate with the most pics but also included there are Bob Dylan, Elvis, Buffalo Springfield, Bruce Springsteen, U2, Pink Floyd, Fletwood Mac, Sting, Simon and Garfunkel, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Carlos Santana, David Bowie, The Eagles, The Who, The Dave Matthews Band, The Bee Gees, James Taylor, Guns N' Roses, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones, and Linkin Park. Pics are 4x6, 5x7 and 8x10. There is also the back of a door that is dedicated to Neil Young and Stephen Stills and all the bands that came out of Buffalo Springfield. A third wall in the bathroom is purely made up of 5x7 size pics of those who one could easily be argued to be in the hall of fame area. Included there are REM, Bon Jovi, Hall and Oates, and The Doors and many others.

No doubt you live alone... no woman (at least a grown-up woman) would ever allow that in her home.

[The Rap]

LOL yes I do but I think not for long. The apartment has been created by me to be like a museum since I spend so much time in it as I am disabled. Besides what I listed the apartment is decorated in a manner dedicated to the Native American Indian as a tribute to a noble people who were the victims of a nearl genocide and ethnic cleansing. My bedroom has one wall that I face while I am on the computer that is completely covered by pictures of male actors, probably due to my own experience and education. Basically all male only because if I put up 8x10's of Angelina Jolie and such peoiple would think I had a different motivation. Part of another wall is dedicated to comedians I love from Chaplin and Grouch to present day. Finally another small wall is my "Heroes" wall in which those people I admire and had an influence on my very being are honored. Lastly there are dedications to Robert F. Kennedy in various places.

[IkeWagner]

It is time:

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/31636/detail/

[The Rap]

As hysterical as that is I wonder if it is appropriate at this time. I am not criticizing but truly wondering.

[Chris_Moderato]

As hysterical as that is I wonder if it is appropriate at this time. I am not criticizing but truly wondering.

It...is...time...

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I'm a big Doors fan, but I never bought into all the poet stuff about Morrison. Sure, he's creative and hit some great highs creatively, but hey, some say Yoko Ono was really creative! I enjoy a lot of The Doors songs and the moods and places in my life they bring back to me, but face it, in his day, (sans the molester stuff) Morrison was every bit as weird as Wacko Jacko. Cobain? Sketchy talent, degenerate junkie, poser and a weakling. I do understand many questions have gone unanswered regarding his "suicide."
I wasn't much of a fan of Michael Jackson. I liked a couple of songs from the J5 days, but he was blown up out of proportion by MTV. He was a terrific talent and showman, a deeply disturbed individual and in my opinion, a testimony to the damage done by mental and physical abuse in his childhood. I tend to believe he was a perv and he did enough things to warrant the rep. Still, RIP dude. Your life in the spotlight probably killed you.
Farrah? She was hot in the seventies, really helping to bring on a "sexual revolution" of a different sort in the televised media. Her famous "nip" poster was iconic and she loosened censorship on tv with her clingy wardrobe and lack of "support" if you catch my drift. She had a run in the eighties that proved her a more than adequate actress before drifting into being pretty whacked out. I suppose hanging with super whacked-out Ryan O'Neal would do that. RIP Farrah.
BILLY MAYS not here....too bad. I may have been the only person I know who got a kick out of the guy with the Kiwi black beard and hair shouting from the tv. From everything I saw of him out of character, he was a genuine decent guy. Helluva pitchman, I'll miss him. Guess his show with Sully goes belly-up now, too, eh? RIP Billy.
In closing...so long to Gale Storm. A cute kid in the fifties who actually won a contest to "become" Gale Storm, if I'm not mistaken. I lliked her reruns of "My Little Margie," the show that came with the name. Doubt if many of you ever heard of her but I thought I'd mention her in the Rap's RIP. She deserves it.

[BigWorm]

jon lajoie sums the michael jackson situation up the best. I agree with him completely.

If you are a prude jackass don't click this link.

[BigWorm]

jon lajoie sums the michael jackson situation up the best. I agree with him completely.

If you are a prude jackass don't click this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVACUjHn6yU

[Middle Man]

What, no love for Karl Malden?

[bravos4evr]

What, no love for Karl Malden?

Former president of the screen actors guild and Acadamey of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Great actor. ( especially in One the Waterfront and in Patton. ( I think the acting between he and George C Scott was about as good as it gets). He also played in one of my favorite italian horro films ( cat O 9 tails) he played a crossword puzzle writer who get's caught up in a murder! mystery. Good stuff!!

[The Rap]

Just got out of the hospital so yes I do rememebr Gale Storm who could light up a room with her smile and do want to pay homage to Karl Malden who plyed some magnificent roles inclusing on TV where Michael Douglas appreciated him so much he looked at him as another father.Karl was 97 whenhe went but age doesnlt matter because if your life was worthwhile there will always be those who will weep.In Karl's case he is survived by his wife of 70 plus years.

[sdp]

One thing that annoys me to no end is the way all these southern rednecks that surround me talk about Michael Jackson.

"Who cares? He was a freak! A pedophiler [sic] and child molester!!"

You know, this is a country whose legal system isn't exactly kind to pedophiles and predators. Just watch Dateline--men have been sentenced 7-10 years in prison for simply showing up at a house with the intentions to bang an underaged girl.

He was acquitted TWICE of such child molestation charges. He may have turned himself into a "strange" dude in his later years, but he was never less than human and people in this country deserve to be viewed by the championed mantra "Innocent until proven guilty." Would these people appreciate such verbal abuse if they had a family member who had been acquitted of child molestation charges? I don't think so.

[BigWorm]

I am the southern guy who doesn't give two ****s about Michael Jackson. He was a child molester. Did you watch his exclusive interview with Martin Bashir? It made me sick. In a country where OJ got acquitted, a not guilty verdict doesn't mean he wasn't a sex criminal.

You seem like a good guy SDP, but do you really think MJ didn't do anything wrong?

[The Rap]

Yes Michael did something wrong but it is explainable. Try this; The truth is that Michael was asexual, liking neither boys or girls. This had to be kept secret because the female fans would have deserted him. He isn't the biological father of any of his three kids but a better father than may biological fathers are. What he did wrong is being over 40 years old and allowing young boys to sleep in bed with him which is a no-no no matter what. However, I believe he didn't molest them because he wouldn't know what to do anyway. But in his eyes all he was having was a slumber party for boys of which he considered himself to be one.

Michael never had a childhood and thuis spent his life caught in a time warp never growing up. If you watched that famous film with Bashir where they were in Vegas and went shopping then tell me if Michael's behavior wasn't that of a childs'?

Still Michael was one of the truly gifted performers in music history, so great that it was he who crossed the color line more effecetively than anyone who ever tried before. So many of his songs preached brotherhood and care for the disadvantaged. Also what has become lost in all this is the fact that he gave away more to charities than just about anyone else except for Paul Newman. But I conclude by explaining he was a tortured soul who was a genius musically and that explains the changing skin color and plastic surgeries as the kid never truly knew who he was and spent a lifetime searching for his true self.

So Big Worm if you want to fancy yourself as one of the rednecks referred to by SDP then God Bless You. But maybe you have to try to look at the person with a wee bit more compassion and understanding. If you want to hate someone there is Michael's father who comes to mind that surely deserves it.

[bravos4evr]

Hmmmm, I think you are rationalizing what you know to be aberrant and dugusting pedophiliac behavior Rap.

he did it, common sense tells us that. Just the fact that he was abused doesn't somehow excuse his behavior at all.

[The Rap]

Think what you want but there is nothing to indicate that Michael would even know how to make it with another human being, male or female. I did point out it was wrong for a 40 year old to take young boys into his bed no matter what but he wouldn't even know what to do if he wanted to sexually abuse a kid.

I was not offering excuses at all but just an understanding of a tortured soul who wasn't perfect in any way and did bring much beauty into our world.

[Chris_Moderato]

The truth is that Michael was asexual, liking neither boys or girls.

How could you possibly know this to be truth or not?

[The Rap]

The same way anything else is unknown. But if you want to use your head then it seems the only thing that fits. Liking girls? All one had to do was watch the famous "kiss" between him and Lisa Presley. Boys? Never a sign of anything going on because to you and I he might seem gay but to gays he seemed like a freak. Thus, considering all we do know then I highly doubt he sexually abused those boys that slept with him (and I did point out that that was wrong). The guy was in a constant fight to find himself and that is a pretty good reason to explain the skin color and plastic surgery changes.

The key is that he always perceived himself as being still a young child and he said many things to that effect. Well young boys usually are asexual aren't they? And he never grew out of that age.

[Chris_Moderato]

The same way anything else is unknown. But if you want to use your head then it seems the only thing that fits. Liking girls? All one had to do was watch the famous "kiss" between him and Lisa Presley. Boys? Never a sign of anything going on because to you and I he might seem gay but to gays he seemed like a freak. Thus, considering all we do know then I highly doubt he sexually abused those boys that slept with him (and I did point out that that was wrong). The guy was in a constant fight to find himself and that is a pretty good reason to explain the skin color and plastic surgery changes.

The key is that he always perceived himself as being still a young child and he said many things to that effect. Well young boys usually are asexual aren't they? And he never grew out of that age.

100% your opinion. Maybe 100% other people's opinions as well. That does not make it "truth", as you claimed.

[ScooterBrave]

Never a sign of anything going on because to you and I he might seem gay but to gays he seemed like a freak. Thus, considering all we do know then I highly doubt he sexually abused those boys that slept with him (and I did point out that that was wrong). The guy was in a constant fight to find himself and that is a pretty good reason to explain the skin color and plastic surgery changes.

The key is that he always perceived himself as being still a young child and he said many things to that effect. Well young boys usually are asexual aren't they? And he never grew out of that age.

Well, first, being gay and being a pedophile are not the same thing. Second, there very rarely IS a sign until an offended child speaks up. Pedophiles are devious while seemingly innocent.

Young boys are asexual? Not according to Freud. For that matter, not according to most child psychologists.

[wordslayer©]

In the Martin Bashir interview, MJ is asked, over and over again, if he has had plastic surgery. He only admits to having two surgeries on his nose, so that he can breathe better and hit the high notes.

Again, he is asked if he has had any other types of plastic surgery. MJ states that he has not, and that his appearance has only changed because your appearance just changes as you get older.

Bashir doesn't let him off the hook. He asks him again, and MJ never admits to having any type of plastic surgery done, other than his nasal surgery for his breathing.

If you believe this, then why not believe his denials of inappropriate behaviors with kids.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I didn't believe the plastic surgery tales and I don't believe he's an asexual innocent. Paying people to go on the dummy-up does not suggest to me an innocence. I also have an idea that even a dude as weird as jacko could figure out enough to do with a kid to be arrested. All he had to do was follow his instincts. Enough about him, it's
AIR MCNAIR TIME!
Sadly, it was reported today that former Tennessee Titan QB, Steve "Air" McNair, and a female were found shot to death. I have no more details at this time. What a shame!

[The Rap]

Chris go back and read what I said. The moment I wrote "Try this" it meant this is what I think. Obviously no one knows the absolute truth besides the guy who is gone. Also asexuality can be viewed from many angles. Do I mean he was born without any sexual wants or needs? NO. But if you talk to an 8 year old boy does he have any idea what to do? That is Michael IMO a kid who never matured or grew up. He even claimed to be Peter Pan. Paying off those people Fred isnlt an admission of pure guilt but also can be viewed as the price he had to pay to save whatever reputation he had left. Keep in mind I think he did wrong by taking young boys into his bed. The excuse that he probably thought of it as a pajama party for boys doesn't excuse his behavior because he should have known better.
Fred, even if he knew what to dois that the clincnhing point to prove he did it? Not in my book.

[The Rap]

I have no idea what to say about this man who passed away yesterday at the age of 93. He was Secretary of Defense during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. More than that he was the architect of the Vietnam War ignoring all advice and protests against it (even his own son was protesting). He was a brilliant man who totally misjudged a situation which would be forgiveable except that it cost the lives of thousands of our kids as well as the Vietnamese, North and South.

It was much later in life when he realized his mistake and a documentary called The Fog of War was produced. It won many honors and in it he admitted he was wrong about the war. I remember not being able to decide if I believed him or not. Was he truly repentant and recognized that he screwed up or was he more insidious and tried to get forgiveness as he apporached his most senior years.

Bottom line he caused the death of so many that I cared less about what he had to say much later. I donlt think there is such a thing as hell but if it does exist it will be his future address for eternity

[The Rap]

Oh and Fred, McNair is starting to look a lot worse in death than the person he was all his life.

[Chris_Moderato]

I have no idea what to say about this man who passed away yesterday at the age of 93. He was Secretary of Defense during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. More than that he was the architect of the Vietnam War ignoring all advice and protests against it (even his own son was protesting). He was a brilliant man who totally misjudged a situation which would be forgiveable except that it cost the lives of thousands of our kids as well as the Vietnamese, North and South.

It was much later in life when he realized his mistake and a documentary called The Fog of War was produced. It won many honors and in it he admitted he was wrong about the war. I remember not being able to decide if I believed him or not. Was he truly repentant and recognized that he screwed up or was he more insidious and tried to get forgiveness as he apporached his most senior years.

Bottom line he caused the death of so many that I cared less about what he had to say much later. I donlt think there is such a thing as hell but if it does exist it will be his future address for eternity

My God, you're judgmental. And I can guarantee you'd be the first one raising hell if anyone else on here had the audacity to come on here say things like that about a recently deceased person.

[The Rap]

What's the matter with you guys? You are probably too young to remember the arrogance with which McNamara ran a war that was wrong and cost us so many precious lives. So what am I supposed to do, weep for him? His judgment will come elsewhere if you believe in that.

[Chris_Moderato]

The man came to terms with his errors later in life.

The 60s are over. Stop fighting old wars.

[BraveFan]

While Michael Jackson's death is news I'm so tired of hearing about this guys death as if he was a pope. About time someone like Peter King had the balls to say it.

[Dreamscape]

I am going to wait for my head to explode and say...I agree with BravesFan. Seriously, when I walked into the living room today only to see Katie Couric talking more about Michael Jackson, my words were "What, did he die again?"

Can't we go back to actual news yet?

[Chris_Moderato]

I think for the first time in CN political thread history, we may all be in agreement. I, too, am sick of this constant coverage on every channel.

I was at the gym tonight and had to grudgingly give Fox News credit for being the only station covering the Chinese protests story, while CNN looked indistinguishable from E! in their coverage of Michael Jackson. Sad...

[wordslayer©]

Usually I loathe anything hollywood or entertainment related, and the fawning over them just grates all over me, but this is something that I just can't help but read. If it's on TV, I watch it. If it's on the internet I click it. If I see an article in a magazine, I read it.

I think it's the train wreck aspect of it that has me engaged in it.

[Chris_Moderato]

Usually I loathe anything hollywood or entertainment related, and the fawning over them just grates all over me, but this is something that I just can't help but read. If it's on TV, I watch it. If it's on the internet I click it. If I see an article in a magazine, I read it.

I think it's the train wreck aspect of it that has me engaged in it.

Wuss.

[The Rap]

Peter King I used tom have some respect for but lost it all when he made his stupid comments about Michael Jackson. He said Michael didn't accomplish anything in his life. Where have you been living Peter? In a cave somewhere? Also to ignore all the positive things Michael did as well and just call him a pervert? For shame you lowlife.

[Chris_Moderato]

Peter King I used tom have some respect for but lost it all when he made his stupid comments about Michael Jackson. He said Michael didn't accomplish anything in his life. Where have you been living Peter? In a cave somewhere? Also to ignore all the positive things Michael did as well and just call him a pervert? For shame you lowlife.

What's with the avatar?

[Dreamscape]

King did the classic "quit talking before you say something stupid." I think most people can understand the argument that the Jackson death quit being news, oh, a week ago. There are so many important things going on in the world and Jackson's death, while he was a tremendous talent and his impact on music and dance can be celebrated, is not now newsworthy.

Let E! and VH1 and MTV and BET remember Michael Jackson. I want my news to focus on, well, news.

[Hobbes]

It really seems to me that all of this hand-wringing over Jackson's death is kind of forced. There seems to be a collective sense that we should make this much fuss over his death, so we do. It's kind of like a huge display of grieving on behalf of the country that is not really heartfelt.

It all rings so hollow to me and seems less than genuine.

[BraveFan]

Peter King I used tom have some respect for but lost it all when he made his stupid comments about Michael Jackson. He said Michael didn't accomplish anything in his life. Where have you been living Peter? In a cave somewhere? Also to ignore all the positive things Michael did as well and just call him a pervert? For shame you lowlife.

i believe king was saying he didn't accomplish much in his personal life and that we should be celebrating the live's of our military. he was right mj was a pervert.

[Dreamscape]

It really seems to me that all of this hand-wringing over Jackson's death is kind of forced. There seems to be a collective sense that we should make this much fuss over his death, so we do. It's kind of like a huge display of grieving on behalf of the country that is not really heartfelt.

It all rings so hollow to me and seems less than genuine.
Agreed. In a way, it reminds me a lot of the Jerry Falwell death like that. Obviously, the situations were different, but there seemed to be an attempt to push a "fond memorial."

[Andy G.]

Whoa...wait a minute...Michael Jackson is dead?!?!

[luvdembravos]

What's the matter with you guys? You are probably too young to remember the arrogance with which McNamara ran a war that was wrong and cost us so many precious lives. So what am I supposed to do, weep for him? His judgment will come elsewhere if you believe in that.

If you want to blame someone, start with the presidents he worked for...McNamara was the SecDef, you know, the Secretary of War...it was his job to run the war.

[The Rap]

Then I guess we can't blame Rumsfeld for anything either, huh? Are they just drones doing their master's bidding?

[The Rap]

What's with the avatar?

Kurt Vonnegut why do you ask?

[BraveFan]

I turned on my tv and all I see is coverage of this Michael Jackso memorial service. Then I started to think to myself, what has happened to our great nation? Just a few days ago we celebrated 4th of July and it seemed that nobody talked about what it really ment and then combine that and the love fest for Jacko and I've come to the conclusion our country is losing its mind. Americans are focusing on Jackson instead of the real heros who are fighting in two different wars right now.

[Andy G.]

Who cares? Nobody's losing their minds. The news stations only say or do what will generate the most money for them, and that has little to do with delivering the news. They're just as useful when they're covering Michael Jackson's death as they are when they're doing what they usually do. Michael Jackson's death is the best thing for their ratings right now, and until it's not, they'll keep talking about him. When people stop watching, they'll go back to scaring people and telling them how dumb a politician/political party is. It's all the same.

[ScooterBrave]

This just in....Newsflash....

CNN reports that Michael Jackson is still dead! He did not, as some predicted, rise on the third day.

We repeat, Michael Jackson is still dead!

[The Rap]

What bothers me is that there are people here who are part of the chopnation family who are tryuly grieving for Michael Jackson and feel it is a great loss and still others who can't help but make jokes about his death. Very nice.

[Lauren T.]

I can't spend my life grieving over people I've never met. People die every day; I refuse to live my life in mourning. But then, I don't believe we're worm food the minute we die. I believe in an afterlife that is treating MJ exactly as he deserves to be treated, and I believe only God truly knows what went on with him, and is rewarding or punishing him appropriately.

[Hobbes]

He's a public figure, and a controversial one at that. You are going to get all sorts of comments about him and should expect it. Plus, most comments here have been about the coverage moreso than about him.

[Andy G.]

I can't spend my life grieving over people I've never met. People die every day; I refuse to live my life in mourning. But then, I don't believe we're worm food the minute we die. I believe in an afterlife that is treating MJ exactly as he deserves to be treated, and I believe only God truly knows what went on with him, and is rewarding or punishing him appropriately.
Well said.

[Chris_Moderato]

I don't understand this need to "mourn" celebrities. Personally, yeah, it's sad that a guy who was hot sh*t when I was a kid is dead. He had talent and all, but really, all his death does is remind me I'm not a kid anymore. Aside from that, Boooooooooo-ring!

[wordslayer©]

I usually just mourn the living.

[luvdembravos]

I usually just mourn the living.

So do I ... and they typically wear a Braves uniform.

BTW, is it true Michael Jackson's last words were "Take me to Children's Hospital" ?

[wordslayer©]

So do I ... and they typically wear a Braves uniform.

BTW, is it true Michael Jackson's last words were "Take me to Children's Hospital" ?

When he was standing at the pearly gates, he runs into Elvis. Elvis looks at him with disbelief and says, "You married who????"

[Chris_Moderato]

When he was standing at the pearly gates, he runs into Elvis. Elvis looks at him with disbelief and says, "You married who????"

:rimshot:

[IkeWagner]

It really seems to me that all of this hand-wringing over Jackson's death is kind of forced. There seems to be a collective sense that we should make this much fuss over his death, so we do. It's kind of like a huge display of grieving on behalf of the country that is not really heartfelt.

It all rings so hollow to me and seems less than genuine.

I agree. And displays of this sort happen all the time in Hollywood, in varying degrees.

[BraveFan]

Yesteday was a great example of why most Americans hate Hollywood. Sure we like movies but we don't care about their politics or any other their opinions. Make music, movies and STFU.

[luvdembravos]

Yesteday was a great example of why most Americans hate Hollywood. Sure we like movies but we don't care about their politics or any other their opinions. Make music, movies and STFU.



Most Americans, and the world for that matter, loves the movies that come out of Hollywood. I know my family and I do.

Now, most conservative Americans probably think actors and actresses should stay out of politics (or STFU) because they don’t agree with the liberal bias that comes from that crowd. But I’m guessing, most liberal Americans and a slew of Democrats just love Hollywood types for all the money they can bring to the party and liberal causes thru fund raising etc. Hollywood is just part of the Democrat culture. Deal with it.

[Dreamscape]

Yesteday was a great example of why most Americans hate Hollywood. Sure we like movies but we don't care about their politics or any other their opinions. Make music, movies and STFU.
Why must you always say "most Americans?" Are you polling most Americans for each post? Are you a Verizon wireless member and they just follow you like in the commercials? Seriously, stick to what you know and/or can prove and stop speaking for most Americans.

[Lauren T.]

That avatar makes me unable to take him seriously.

[bravos4evr]

Why must you always say "most Americans?" Are you polling most Americans for each post? Are you a Verizon wireless member and they just follow you like in the commercials? Seriously, stick to what you know and/or can prove and stop speaking for most Americans.

Everyone I know. left or right, is really getting sick of the pretentious condescending nature of many Hollywood folks. I don't care that yer a leftie or a righty and want to be active in politics, but don't be a sniveling little,condescending jerk and treat the people who pay your huge salries by going to your movies, like they are idiots.

If they could check the smugness at the door, I really wouldn't have a problem with it.

[The Rap]

Yea right, I hate Holloywood. Bringing us guys like Reagan. Jeez!

[BigWorm]

When he was standing at the pearly gates, he runs into Elvis. Elvis looks at him with disbelief and says, "You married who????"

I believe his last words were:

"Must go to JC Penny, boys pants, half off."

[Chris_Moderato]

I've read that his actual last words were "I like to f**k little kids."

:rimshot::rimshot::rimshot::rimshot:

Too on-the-nose?

[Braves N 10]

I for one, am still sad that he died and will always remember the good in him, and how his music touched the world. I think that alot of people feel the same but are afraid to say so because everyone else is making fun of him. The guy is a legend and will always be a legend for the music that he made.

[Chris_Moderato]

I've read that his actual last words were "I like to f**k little kids."

:rimshot::rimshot::rimshot::rimshot:

Too on-the-nose?

For the record, tongue planted firmly in cheek on this one...

[bravos4evr]

He didn't even write his own stuff.... I just don't get the fawning over him at all. He was marketed well and could dance....yippee.... I bet when Bob Dylan or Tom Waits dies it'll be a footnote.

[Chris_Moderato]

He didn't even write his own stuff.... I just don't get the fawning over him at all. He was marketed well and could dance....yippee.... I bet when Bob Dylan or Tom Waits dies it'll be a footnote.

Of course, Tom Waits' voice died back in the 1980s. Never heard anything about it, so I think you're right.

Though I think there will be a bit more of a reaction to Bob Dylan dying.

[Hobbes]

Though I think there will be a bit more of a reaction to Bob Dylan dying.
Yeah, but it will still be nothing like this. There will be a few retrospectives on various channels and after a couple of days it will stop.

It seems like folks are determined to turn Michael Jackson into this generation's Elvis.

[Lauren T.]

It seems like folks are determined to turn Michael Jackson into this generation's Elvis.
Isn't he, though? Who is even comparable?

[IkeWagner]

Man have I been hearing some killer Mike jokes lately. At work yesterday it was basically an 9-hour string of them.

[Hobbes]

Isn't he, though? Who is even comparable?
Well I wasn't speaking so much of musical stature, where he is comparable to Elvis. I meant more about how Elvis became kind of bigger in death than he was in the later years of his life. I wonder if we'll start seeing MJ impersonators in every cheesy Vegas nightclub.

[Lauren T.]

Well I wasn't speaking so much of musical stature, where he is comparable to Elvis. I meant more about how Elvis became kind of bigger in death than he was in the later years of his life. I wonder if we'll start seeing MJ impersonators in every cheesy Vegas nightclub.
Ah, I see. I think the accusations will temper the legend status. Elvis got fat and did a lot of drugs; MJ was accused of much worse. People won't forget that, even if the accusations were false.

[The Rap]

Dylan dying would be more traumatic if only because of his stature, one that goes beyond all the great songs he wrote. Many, including myself, consider Dylan as the poet of our generation and would grieve heavily at his loss. As far as Michael Jackson goes he did write many of the songs or parts of them and there is the famous story when he was putting together the We Are The World project he was asked by Quincy if he could werite a theme song. Michael walked away and came back about 20 minutes later with the awesome anthem we all know.

[wordslayer©]

Bob Dylan

I don't get it. Everyone has their singers that they like or don't like,
and there are plenty of singers out there that I just don't care for.....but then....

there's Bob Dylan. His voice doesn't sound unique. It doesn't sound bluesy. It doesn't even sound tonal. It sounds like a$$.

If I hear one of his songs on the radio, I have almost strained my wrist, in too much of a hurry, in getting to the radio quickly enough to change the station.

I had some body work done at the body shop one time and as I stood there in the garage, watching them use the grinder that was tearing away the paint from the metal, I couldn't help but notice how it sounded like Bob Dylan singing a song.

Elvis Costello. He and Bob Dylan are world famous song writers. I've tried to appreciate just *one* song that either of them have written, but I don't get it.

Hillary Duff
Miley Cyrus
The Jonas Brothers

To me, I'd rather hear any of those over anything that Dylan or Costello have ever done.

Maybe it's because I'm not cultured enough, but for the life of me, I just cannot see the talent in these guys, no less the reverance.

I have no doubt that Michael Jackson wrote the "we are world song" in less than 20 minutes. Probably only took him two minutes to write the song, but another 18 minutes covering it with syrup and guilt.

[Lauren T.]

I have a friend, a mid-20s female, who wants Bob Dylan's name tattooed somewhere on her body before she dies. I don't get his music or the appeal he has, but it's her body. She can do whatever she wants. :/

[luvdembravos]

Bob Dylan

I don't get it. Everyone has their singers that they like or don't like,
and there are plenty of singers out there that I just don't care for.....but then....

there's Bob Dylan. His voice doesn't sound unique. It doesn't sound bluesy. It doesn't even sound tonal. It sounds like a$$.

If I hear one of his songs on the radio, I have almost strained my wrist, in too much of a hurry, in getting to the radio quickly enough to change the station.

I had some body work done at the body shop one time and as I stood there in the garage, watching them use the grinder that was tearing away the paint from the metal, I couldn't help but notice how it sounded like Bob Dylan singing a song.

Elvis Costello. He and Bob Dylan are world famous song writers. I've tried to appreciate just *one* song that either of them have written, but I don't get it.

Hillary Duff
Miley Cyrus
The Jonas Brothers

To me, I'd rather hear any of those over anything that Dylan or Costello have ever done.

Maybe it's because I'm not cultured enough, but for the life of me, I just cannot see the talent in these guys, no less the reverance.

I have no doubt that Michael Jackson wrote the "we are world song" in less than 20 minutes. Probably only took him two minutes to write the song, but another 18 minutes covering it with syrup and guilt.

I guess I’m not cultured either because I never liked his music … but he sure was revered by the pot smoking, anti-war types in the 60’s.

[Hobbes]

I think Dylan is truly a 60's thing. Much like Slayer I can't change the channel fast enough when his songs come on. I much prefer his son's atonal singing to Dylan's.

As for the "We are the World" song, it's only famous because of the artists who came together to sing it. The song itself is about what you'd expect from a song written in 20 minutes (not very good).

[Andy G.]

I like Bob Dylan, and I know that for somebody my age to say that, they're usually just trying to sound smart.

I have no idea what he sang about, though. I feel like an idiot sometimes, because with guys like Dylan and Morrison, I listen to their music quite often, but I never pay attention to the lyrics. From all the documentaries I've watched, he was extremely intelligent and a great lyricist. I watched that movie they made a year or two ago, I'm Not There. It was really good. It showed how Bob Dylan never wanted to have ignorant, or naive, young people rally around his message, because by the time they caught on to it, the times had changed and he was already thinking about what the next big fad was going to be. I know he was brilliant because tons of awesome musicians, like Tom Petty, idolized him. I have a lot of respect for his lyrics, but I have no idea what they were about. I just love the music.

Edit: Just to clarify, I do pay attention to song lyrics quite a bit. I guess I just don't listen to lyrics from a past generation.

[Hillbilly]

I guess I lean toward the "lyrics" side of this argument more times than not. I'm a huge Pink Floyd fan, but I'll be the first to tell you that Roger Waters can't sing worth a crap. His songwriting is second-to-none, though, and I guess that's what attracts me to PF music and Water's solo material so much. Same way with some of my other favorites, like Patterson Hood (Drive-By Truckers,) Jerry Jeff Walker, Neil Young, Kris Kristofferson....All good musicians, excellent songwriters, but not the greatest vocalists in the world.

[GeneGarberForPrez]

I think Dylan is considered an icon more for the message in his music than the music itself (if you can separate the two). He was big in his day, but his legend grew as people became nostalgic for that era.

I sort of liken it to Bruce Springsteen in the 80's. Both addressed social injustices, and both were anti-establishment, but not so much so as to be off-putting to the mainstream. Springsteen was big 20 years ago, but he has gained almost legendary status with many of us that grew up in the 80's.

I'd actually be interested in what some of you young whipper-snappers think of Springsteen, and whether you agree or disagree with my assessment.

EDIT: I just realized that doesn't make much sense. Instead of saying "off-putting to the mainstream", what I really meant was "off-putting to those that don't necessarily identify strongly with the message".

[Andy G.]

I'm young and I also like Springsteen. Again, it's not because of his message. It's not the same as Dylan though. I know what Springsteen was singing about, but the music is what makes me listen to him.

[The Rap]

Well Dylan also began in the 60's when we had a totally different world and in fact the beginning of changing it to what we have today to a certain degree. His anti war stuff and anti materialistic messages went right into the hearts of my entire generation. His voice was never something great but you had to get used to it which we did. Also many of his lyrics were not that clear to a lot of folks but he never claimed there were real messages there.

Roger Waters has a passable voice but you are right as I am in awe of his writing and composing as well. But all you need to do is watch an interview with him and you won't be surprised because his intelligence is quite obvious and his quick mind will leave you with an open mouth.

Finally there is Neil Young who definiterly has a unique voice but is legendary as one of the most prolific writers ever in addition to being a great guitarist.

[bravos4evr]

Dylan is a good writer. Not my fave though.
If I had to make a list of my 5 most important songwriters of the 20th century it would prolly be:
Tom Waits
John Prine
Lennon/Macartney
Thelonious Monk
Carol King and her partner who wrote so many great songs.
honorable mention goes to Barry Gordies team responsible for all that early motown stuff.

[Chris_Moderato]

I always liked Elvis Costello, but I'd never argue everyone should like him. I've never been a big Dylan fan.

[argentina brave]

you guys are crazy ... dylan is THE man. one only need look at my avatar and hear my occasional rant, to know that i think he is the most influential songwriter of the 20th century.

his 'voice' is affected to song like the early 20th century folksters/bluesmen, a la woody guthrie, dock boggs, son house, et al... of course, after 40-50 years of performing and chain-smoking, it has taken on a life of its own.

i consider myself a dylan sycophant, having attended 30 or so concerts. he is an acquired taste, for sure. but, i think that historians will remember him well, and he will stand the test of time moreso than any of these other pop-culture icons like jackson.

...and for all those that dismiss dylan as a 60s era dope-smoking hippie. consider, dylan chased off his 'admirers' at his house in woodstock with a shotgun, and refused to be a part of the festival that, arguably, took place there due to his presence. dylan is a complex man with complex music. unfortunately, his voice is off-putting to many and this goes unnoticed.

also, consider, he won a grammy for best gospel album in 1979, at one time playing old testament castigating sermons to a belushi/ackroyd audience live on snl. the man has never been afraid to be himself. i admire that.


edit: i think upon re-reading some of my drivel, i come off a little pompous. for that, i am sorry. i just really like dylan, and his music. nuf said.

[wordslayer©]

Let's do a breakdown and study the issue:

I googled to see what Bob Dylan song was the most profound and most meaningful, deep song in his existence. It was "like a rolling stone."

Fair enough....I understand the title. Here are a sample of the lyrics:

Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

(No idea what he is talking about here, but since he is a musical genius and I'm not, then he wins the first round)



How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?


(I understand the chrous. Tied after the second round)



You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

(I sort of understand this part, but I have to work at understanding it, and because of this, he loses this round. It's the marriage penalty. If you have to work at a relationship, then it ain't worth having. If you have to work at understanding a song, then it ain't worth listening to)



Now here is a sample of a song from, without a doubt, the most bashed and hated band ever placed on the face of the earth. Without further adieu, the Go Go's:

There are some things I will never reveal
About the way I think and what I feel
On the surface, smooth, calm and cool
Eyes deep and blue as a swimming pool
And I convince with certainty
No interference will get thru to me

(rhymed reveal, feel and then went for cool and pool, and then finished up with certainty and me......some world class rhyming....simple to understand.....am pretty impressed)

Like a picture that's been painted
And is hanging on the wall
An admired but untouchable
Reflection
A vision of nowness
A vision of nowness

(a vision of nowness...wow.....actually being able to stand outside from themselves and see things as they are in the here and now. This is profound stuff)

To know the world, complex and wide
To be temperamentally tranquilized
I'll put you on, but envy none
Break you with care to stay free of want
I'm your curiosity
Notorious, you'll never get what you see

Bottom line...this is just good stuff, but nope....you never hear the go go's mentioned in the same breath as Bob Dylan, but here it is...hard proof...solid evidence........the go go's are every bit as good, and I just don't think it would be a stretch to say that they are even BETTER than Dylan.

And then, when you factor in the better voices.....just looks like a landslide win for the go go's.

[Hobbes]

i just really like dylan, and his music. nuf said.
I knew you'd weigh in before too long. :) I seem to recall we already went down this path a long time ago on the old board (maybe even BravesBeat).

[argentina brave]

Let's do a breakdown and study the issue:

I googled to see what Bob Dylan song was the most profound and most meaningful, deep song in his existence. It was "like a rolling stone."

Fair enough....I understand the title. Here are a sample of the lyrics:

Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

(No idea what he is talking about here, but since he is a musical genius and I'm not, then he wins the first round)



How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?


(I understand the chrous. Tied after the second round)



You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

(I sort of understand this part, but I have to work at understanding it, and because of this, he loses this round. It's the marriage penalty. If you have to work at a relationship, then it ain't worth having. If you have to work at understanding a song, then it ain't worth listening to)



Now here is a sample of a song from, without a doubt, the most bashed and hated band ever placed on the face of the earth. Without further adieu, the Go Go's:

There are some things I will never reveal
About the way I think and what I feel
On the surface, smooth, calm and cool
Eyes deep and blue as a swimming pool
And I convince with certainty
No interference will get thru to me

(rhymed reveal, feel and then went for cool and pool, and then finished up with certainty and me......some world class rhyming....simple to understand.....am pretty impressed)

Like a picture that's been painted
And is hanging on the wall
An admired but untouchable
Reflection
A vision of nowness
A vision of nowness

(a vision of nowness...wow.....actually being able to stand outside from themselves and see things as they are in the here and now. This is profound stuff)

To know the world, complex and wide
To be temperamentally tranquilized
I'll put you on, but envy none
Break you with care to stay free of want
I'm your curiosity
Notorious, you'll never get what you see

Bottom line...this is just good stuff, but nope....you never hear the go go's mentioned in the same breath as Bob Dylan, but here it is...hard proof...solid evidence........the go go's are every bit as good, and I just don't think it would be a stretch to say that they are even BETTER than Dylan.

And then, when you factor in the better voices.....just looks like a landslide win for the go go's.

i'm at a loss for words.....:wall:

[argentina brave]

I knew you'd weigh in before too long. :) I seem to recall we already went down this path a long time ago on the old board (maybe even BravesBeat).

yep....we've been there, done that....so to speak. we all have to respectfully agree to disagree i suppose.

[argentina brave]

If you have to work at understanding a song, then it ain't worth listening to)[/B]


the essence of our quarrel

[Andy G.]

If you have to work at understanding a song, then it ain't worth listening to
I love having to work to understand the meaning of a song. If, after I've worked at it, I still don't understand it, I don't penalize the writer for that. The song is either nonsense or it's good but I just don't understand it. My favorite lyricists are the ones that I have to do some work to understand, but at the end of the day I get a really good meaning out of the song.

[wordslayer©]

I love having to work to understand the meaning of a song. If, after I've worked at it, I still don't understand it, I don't penalize the writer for that. The song is either nonsense or it's good but I just don't understand it. My favorite lyricists are the ones that I have to do some work to understand, but at the end of the day I get a really good meaning out of the song.

Hip Hop has shortened my attention span and ruined me????

[Andy G.]

Hip Hop has shortened my attention span and ruined me????
Hey, at least you know how to do the stanky leg. :D

[The Rap]

I want some of whatever you're smoking if you can even mention the Go Gos in the same sentence with Dylan. Bill Nighy, a fine actor, was asked by Charlie Rose if he had any personal habits he would like to reveal. Bill said "not a day goes by in which I don't listen to Bob Dylan."

I am friendly with Al Kooper who some of you might have heard of. He was the founder of the Blues Project and Blood, Sweat and Tears. He also was part of the trio of Mike Bloomfield, Stephen Stills and himself on their extraordinary album, "Super Sessions." He also is the man who discovered and produced Lynard Skynard. He was one of the musicians who played on Dylan's albums in the 60's and he talks about Dylan as if he was a deity.

[wordslayer©]

I want some of whatever you're smoking if you can even mention the Go Gos in the same sentence with Dylan. Bill Nighy, a fine actor, was asked by Charlie Rose if he had any personal habits he would like to reveal. Bill said "not a day goes by in which I don't listen to Bob Dylan."



I was once interviewed in Kroger's about some cheese I was test tasting. They inquired about my habits and I said, "Not a day goes by in which I listen to Bob Dylan."

Just give the go go's a listen, Rap. I posted proof. Solid evidence.

[bravos4evr]

if you don't have to work at understanding something than oftentimes it ISN'T worth listening to. Don't be a sheep slayer, put a little effort into your cultural enjoyment. It all can't be splosions and three chord hooks....christ I hate people.....

[Lauren T.]

I prefer radio-edit hip hop because I don't have to think about it. Work, family issues, friend drama...all of that engages my mind and keeps it from turning into oatmeal. I want to listen to music that's fun, has a good beat, and/or makes me laugh; I actually shy away from music with strong cultural messages. But then, I like to make up my own mind about things and not depend on anyone else -- including musicians -- to influence me.

[ScooterBrave]

Let's do a breakdown and study the issue:

I googled to see what Bob Dylan song was the most profound and most meaningful, deep song in his existence. It was "like a rolling stone."

......................

Bottom line...this is just good stuff, but nope....you never hear the go go's mentioned in the same breath as Bob Dylan, but here it is...hard proof...solid evidence........the go go's are every bit as good, and I just don't think it would be a stretch to say that they are even BETTER than Dylan.

And then, when you factor in the better voices.....just looks like a landslide win for the go go's.

OTOH, here are the lyrics from MY favorite Dylan song:

Gotta Serve Somebody

You may be an ambassador to England or France,
You may like to gamble, you might like to dance,
You may be the heavyweight champion of the world,
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You might be a rock 'n' roll addict prancing on the stage,
You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage,
You may be a business man or some high degree thief,
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a state trooper, you might be a young Turk,
You may be the head of some big TV network,
You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame,
You may be living in another country under another name

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a construction worker working on a home,
You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome,
You might own guns and you might even own tanks,
You might be somebody's landlord, you might even own banks

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride,
You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side,
You may be workin' in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair,
You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk,
Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk,
You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread,
You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody,
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy,
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy,
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray,
You may call me anything but no matter what you say

You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody.
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Now to me these lyrics make perfect sense. And to satisfy you, Slayer, there are some nice rhymes there. Good message, don't have to strain to understand it.

Now, I will concede, that when Dylan sings it, it comes out more like:

Buhbuh gonta ha tu sve sumbdy, ye indee

But that doesn't diminish good song writing. He was a very talented and deep song writer and I love to hear his music when someone else sings it.

Now, in regards to Michael Jackson, the story I saw said he writes his own lyrics but can't read or write music. I think Lionel Ritchie said that.

[ScooterBrave]

I want some of whatever you're smoking if you can even mention the Go Gos in the same sentence with Dylan. Bill Nighy, a fine actor, was asked by Charlie Rose if he had any personal habits he would like to reveal. Bill said "not a day goes by in which I don't listen to Bob Dylan."

I am friendly with Al Kooper who some of you might have heard of. He was the founder of the Blues Project and Blood, Sweat and Tears. He also was part of the trio of Mike Bloomfield, Stephen Stills and himself on their extraordinary album, "Super Sessions." He also is the man who discovered and produced Lynard Skynard. He was one of the musicians who played on Dylan's albums in the 60's and he talks about Dylan as if he was a deity.

It's actually spelled "Lynyrd Skynyrd", but hey, I'm just surprised that you would even mention a Southern Rock band.

[The Rap]

Thx for the spelling. I mentioned them because of their link to my buddy Al.

[The Rap]

I was once interviewed in Kroger's about some cheese I was test tasting. They inquired about my habits and I said, "Not a day goes by in which I listen to Bob Dylan."

Just give the go go's a listen, Rap. I posted proof. Solid evidence.

I know the Go Gos very well Slayer. In fact my life's dream has always been to get together with Belinda Carlisle. All I was saying is that they don't compare to Dylan for a variety of reasons and probably the most significant one is their and his affects on our overall culture.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I'm a Dylan fan but I can also appreciate all kinds of stuff.(Almost) In my teens, twenties and thirties I'd take Nugent and similar music over most anyone. I loved the guitar and the words only stuck when they were a bit deeper than "Wango Tango." I wanted to rock! As I found myself slowing down I began listening more intently, and getting away from the hard-rocking blast in favor of music that wasn't so driving and loud. I finally got into Pink Floyd. Couldn't handle that lullabye type stuff in my youth, too slow. (I wasn't into the doobage and I understand this kind of facillitated the slow down in others my age!) I got into Dan Fogelberg and hosts of others whose storytelling and picture-painting skills with the language really struck me to the core. I've found great pleasure in many sounds from ABBA to Hurricane Smith. I like different sounds in music and tend to have rather eclectic tastes. I'm still a big fan of the Alan Parsons Project, Steely Dan and others who masterfully added orchestration to the ol' three chord sets as well as incredible lyrics.
Guess what I'm saying is if it doesn't work for you now, give it some time. You'll be amazed how good some things are the next time around.

[bravos4evr]

Music , iMO, is like movies in a way. There are movies that effect you emotionally, there are movies that stimulate you visually yet have very little emotional connection. There are movies that make you laugh and are utter crap, and there are movies that carry you away to another place and let you escape for a few hours. As long as you the viewer are able to connect to the movie, it's prolly good.
That said tho, there is such a thing as a crappy movie. Yeah you may have liked it, yeah it made you laugh, but really , that was a piece of crap... And there is really no arguing it. Transformers 2 is a good example of this. Yeah, good "splosions" but , it was a bad MOVIE. you can argue that, but you are wrong... sorry, 3000 movies have taught me good from bad, and it was bad. FUN? Yes! Good? Hell no!!!!

[BraveFan]

We have lost another legend as Walter Cronkite has passed away at 92.

[ScooterBrave]

We have lost another legend as Walter Cronkite has passed away at 92.

And that's the way it is.

[KB 34]

His coverage of space exploration back in the day was incredible. As some of us celebrate Apollo 11's 40th Anniversary it'll be something to watch the old coverage and see him breaking the story.

[The Rap]

I will never forget when he reported to us that JFK was indeed dead. I still get chills and my admiration for Cronkite rose because of the emotion he showed. Chet Huntley was someone else who was visibly choked up.

[Dreamscape]

And just like that, another legend has been lost to us. Two days ago, the Taco Bell dog died (http://omg.yahoo.com/news/taco-bell-chihuahua-dies-at-15/25534?nc).

http://usversustheworld.com/brookevstheworld/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/tacobell.jpg

What an icon.

[Chris_Moderato]

Poor Gidget.

[The Rap]

For some weird reason I felt really sad when I heard the dog died.

[bravos4evr]

In other news Taco Bell is unveiling the new Perrochanga!!!! ( for a limited time)

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Is that a chimichanga made from dog? Sounds like a wonderful use for Chihuahuas!

[bravos4evr]

Yep! I wuz waiting to see which spanish understanding person would catch that first!

Yer prize? You get to try the first one!

[The Rap]

Eunice Kennedy Shriver age 88 RIP

Many think her main distinction is being the mother of Maria Shriver and mother-in-law of Governor Terminator. In addition to being a younger sister of JFK she devoted her life to public service and is the founder of the Special Olympics. Nice legacy if you ask me. She is also survived by her husband, Sargent Shriver who was a VP candidate in 1972 and also one of the creators of The Peace Corps which he ran for JFK. The one luck is that he has no idea about his wife's death or even who she is because of a very severe case of Alzheimers.

[bravos4evr]

Yeah, she deserves being honored. The Special Olympics is really a wonderful achievment!

[Chris_Moderato]

The one luck is that he has no idea about his wife's death or even who she is because of a very severe case of Alzheimers.

Yes...lucky him.

[The Rap]

Les Paul, 94 RIP

Les is the inventor of the electric guitar and greats like Jimmy Page and Pete Townshed were great foloowers of him and used all his creations. I rememebr Les playing guitart on TV when I was just a kid and I was amazed at his skill. He has left an everlasting and deserved mark on rock and roll and jazz history.

[FrankEC]

Les Paul, 94 RIP

Les is the inventor of the electric guitar and greats like Jimmy Page and Pete Townshed were great foloowers of him and used all his creations. I rememebr Les playing guitart on TV when I was just a kid and I was amazed at his skill. He has left an everlasting and deserved mark on rock and roll and jazz history.

So sad. It is impossible to overstate the impact he had on Rock and Roll and modern recorded music in general. Not only did he invent the solid body electric, but also multi-track recording. Thanks for the music Les.

[Dreamscape]

Great movie to quote from, Frank.

[The Rap]

When they go at age 94 I think instead of grief there should be a celebratory tribute to what they achieved, IMO.

[bravos4evr]

You were close Rap. Les Paul invented the solidbody electric guitar( and lots of people said that a chunk of wood would never resonate properly to be heard and he proved them wrong). IMO tho, his greatest contribution to music is the little known fact that he invented multi-track recording!!! Before that all music was recorded with the band in one room into either a single mike or several that were daisy chained to a single channel often straight to a master disc! ( cuz there's nothing to mix when you only have one channel!!)

Not to mention one of the kings of fingerstyle jazz guitar!

[The Rap]

Robert Novak, 78

I was always taught that when you don't have anything nice to say about someone who died it is best to just shut up. Still, Novak was lucky, IMO, because he could have been brought up on charges of treason for publishing Valerie Plane's identity in his column. Plus I noticed the main remarks about his passing were made by Mitch McConnel and John Behner, tweedle dee and tweedle dum.

[Dreamscape]

One of Jon Stewart's archenemies. Should be interesting what he has to say about it.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Yep! I wuz waiting to see which spanish understanding person would catch that first!

Yer prize? You get to try the first one!

Er, actually, Chihuahua has long been a staple ingredient in those Mex-sounding dishes dredged up at the Bell. Why do you think genuine Mexicans avoid the place and laugh uncontrollably at the gringos who eat that muck? They know most of those changas and whatever-itos are best made from "free range" rodents!

[The Rap]

Senator Edward M. Kennedy, RIP

This has to be one of the saddest ones I have written. America, the land we love, took a big hit last night as it lost its Lion of the Senate. Teddy never forgot what his brothers stood for as he was always the most consistent liberal in Congress. Still, many Republicans have testified to Teddy's extraordinary ability to compromise and cut a deal with them.

On a personal level it is finally good that a Kennedy passed away from a disease at a relatively advanced age. It is the children of Jack and Bobby who have the most to be thankful for as he was the loving uncle combined with a father who loved them all.

One of my prized possessions is a letter I received from Teddy back in 1972. I wrote him telling him that the choice was his to run or not for the Presidency at that time. He wrote back to me very warmly and told me that his priorities were more at home as he was now responsible for all the young children left behind by Jack and Bobby.

Ironic will it be if the health reform bill is passed right after Teddy left us as this was his life's passion. He will be missed by so many for so many different reasons. May he rest in peace.

[luvdembravos]

On a personal level it is finally good that a Kennedy passed away from a disease at a relatively advanced age.

Huh?


But yes, Kennedy did do a lot of good (minus the Chappaquiddick incident) and was an outstanding senator.

[Lauren T.]

I think he means brain cancer is a better way to go than murder / tragic accident.

[Chris_Moderato]

I think he means brain cancer is a better way to go than murder / tragic accident.

Yeah, I heard someone today refer to the fact that he was the only Kennedy brother to comb gray hair. Interesting way of putting it.

I also noticed that no one (from what I've heard today) has shied away from the controversial aspects of his life/career, which is nice. That is often not the case when certain political and famous people pass.

[The Rap]

Having lived through the assassination of JFK and feeling a lifetime loss because of the assassination of the second brother so all I said was at least one brother was able to live out his life and died a "normal" way.

Tedy's achievements as Senator are amazing and voluminous and did more for the average American, the same ones that have attacked him the most.

[bravos4evr]

It's amazing he didn't drown......... couldn't resist!

[The Rap]

Should have on a day like this.

I was referring to you "can't resist" and not the content.

[bravos4evr]

I am gonna point an obvious truth out to you Rap. If he had been a republican this thread would right now be filled with your tirade about how he was a murderer and he got away with it because of his family name...blah blah blah...

But I'm not gonna say that

[Dreamscape]

I am gonna point an obvious truth out to you Rap. If he had been a republican this thread would right now be filled with your tirade about how he was a murderer and he got away with it because of his family name...blah blah blah...

But I'm not gonna say that
But...but...you did!

Ahhh, pretty sneaky.

[The Rap]

Nick as usual you know nothing as to what I would do. If a good Republican died I would mourn him the same.

[KB 34]

I'll mourn the 3700+ children who were murdered today thanks to politicians like Kennedy. Don't like it? Oh well, I never have never been into popularity contests and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I compromised my principles so I can't lose.

[Dreamscape]

Fortunately, children and fetuses are different, both in the eyes of the laws and majority of society.

Oh, wait, that's a fun conversation I've never had and desperately want to have.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Hearing of Kennedy's death made me sad. I wonder if there will ever be another family that makes the type of contributions to America the Kennedys did. Generations of public service, military heroism and the willingness to go to bat for so many without a voice. I realize many will only concentrate on those things the talking heads insist you dwell on but the Kennedy's gave a lot to this nation. Granted, they took a lot, at least Joe Sr., did to create his legacy or dynasty, whichever you wish to call it, but they helped so many people through their political careers. Plus, Teddy was the butt of one of my favorite lines..."We'll drive off that bridge when we come to it."
R.I.P. Youngest bro.

[luvdembravos]

Nick as usual you know nothing as to what I would do. If a good Republican died I would mourn him the same.

Yeah, but someone you would call a "good Republican" probably would be considered a bad one by most conservatives. ;)

[The Rap]

I couldn't care less about what conservatives think. At 2 in the morning I put on the TV and watched Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have a discussion. I felt like I was watching the crazy house at Bellevue Hospital. Spouting stuff to scare the hell out of average Americans and most of it based on hyperbole to the extreme or just outright lies.

[luvdembravos]

I couldn't care less about what conservatives think. At 2 in the morning I put on the TV and watched Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have a discussion.

If you could not care less, why are you watching? The fact that you're watching them at 2:00 AM tells me you care a teensy-weensy bit. :D

...and BTW, GB and Rush don't represent most conservatives.

I couldn't care less ...

Hobbes is a proud man today.

[Hobbes]

Hobbes is a proud man today.
Yes, yes I am.

[Chris_Moderato]

Whenever possible, please refrain from political conversations outside the political thread. Feel free to continue the conversation about healthcare in that thread. Your posts have been moved there.

[Wahoo]

Irony.

[JanShan12]

I want to add a comment made by Ted Kennedy. He was one of the few political figures to speak on behalf of the GLBT population.

“It is wrong for our civil laws to deny any American the basic right to be part of a family, to have loved ones with whom to build a secure future and share life's joys and tears, and to be free from the stain of bigotry and discrimination.” - Former U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy

As my partner and I are about to start a family, these words mean more to me than ever. I am excited for the day we can raise a child and be a happy family with all of the same rights others have.

Kennedy made many mistakes in his personal life, but that doesn't take away from his compassion for others who were less fortunate.

[Chris_Moderato]

DJ AM died today, apparently. Looks like it's drug related. Sorry, but if you survive a f***ing plane crash, being found dead in your apartment a year later of drug overdose is pretty pathetic.

[The Rap]

I don't know who he is. The first guy that occured to me when reading what you wrote is the kid who survived a plane crash, the one from Blink 182 (I think its Travis something-or-the-other.

[Dreamscape]

I don't know who he is. The first guy that occured to me when reading what you wrote is the kid who survived a plane crash, the one from Blink 182 (I think its Travis something-or-the-other.
DJ AM was in the same plane...

And Travis Barker is the drummer's name.

[The Rap]

DJ AM was in the same plane with Travis? I didn't know that. What a waste though; to die of an OD after surviving a plane crash?

[bravos4evr]

DJ AM was in the same plane with Travis? I didn't know that. What a waste though; to die of an OD after surviving a plane crash?

It is a waste.... but addiction is a lot more than just a 9 letter word for pain...

[The Rap]

I received this from Kerry Kennedy, one of Robert F. Kennedy's daughters. It is so beautifully and heartfelt written that I wanted to share it with all of you. It truly gives you the measure of what a great man he truly was;


"Senator Edward Kennedy served on the Board of Directors of the Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice & Human Rights from 1968 until his passing last week. Witnessing the outpouring of love for him over the past week has been deeply moving and a source of strength and inspiration.

It was heartrending seeing those crowds lining the streets from Hyannis Port to Boston, from the Basilica of Our Lady of Perpetual Help to Hanscom Field, and from Andrews Air Force Base to Arlington Cemetery – often ten deep. -- People held placards, waved American flags, and saluted. I shook hands with several thousand of the 50,000 mourners who came to the viewing at the JFK Library, each with her or his own story of being touched by Teddy's vision, spirit, and love. People came because they appreciated his courageous stances on civil rights, health care, minimum wage, his support in multiple forms for the oppressed and dispossessed, and more. But most didn't know his record on these issues. They came because they knew he loved people – not the people, but actual, living, human beings.

Teddy called every one of my cousins, each of their spouses, and their kids, 119 of us in all, on every birthday and anniversary. He regularly rented a bus and took us on trips to visit battlefields with the greatest historians in the country. He took us skiing, rafting, and sailing. Every time he won a race and received a trophy, he had a replica of the trophy made and sent to every member of his crew.

He made politics come alive, not with esoteric policy discussions, but by telling wonderfully engaging stories about the senators with whom he worked -- their bravery, their foibles, and, to our great delight, always, their accents.

Sailing on the Mya last summer, he talked about his first days as a senator. He watched in awe as an impassioned colleague from Virginia railed against the evils of a particular bill and then saw that very same senator vote yea at roll call. When Teddy expressed his bewilderment, the senator explained "Well son, it's like this, to those who are for the bill, I send my vote, and to those against, I send my speech." Teddy roared with laughter and shook his head.

One of the most memorable trips I took with Teddy was a family visit to Poland in 1986. Lech Walesa had been organizing strikes in the Gdansk shipyards, martial law had been declared, and tension was high. We had gone to Poland to present the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award to Adam Michnik -- known as the intellectual force behind Solidarity -- and Zbigniew Bujak, the leader of the Warsaw underground. The night we arrived, Teddy hosted a dinner, and it was the first time the Solidarity activists were able to communicate openly and in person. That, in and of itself, was a major victory. Formal greetings led to intense discussions, and those in turn gave way to stories, laughter, and a rousing exchange of Polish and Irish folk songs. The next morning came far too early, and I sat in awe at a conference table as Teddy dueled with General Jaruzelski, pressing him on basic rights -- to form a union, free expression, and democratic elections. Watching Teddy assert moral authority with such a depth of emotion and intellectual might was a breathtaking experience. I learned a lot from him on that trip about advancing the cause of human rights and loving democracy.

My work means spending time urging lawmakers to do the right thing on human rights issues. But Teddy is the person I always called not to seek support but to help formulate our political strategy and to find out what he was already doing. He was my "go to" guy. I'm not alone, and it wasn't just about being family.

For 30 years, Senator Kennedy was the human rights movement's strongest ally and its soul on Capitol Hill.

When Haitian refugees were being detained and deported, Ted Kennedy stood with us and with Haitian activists like Ray Joseph to demand an end to arbitrary detentions and sham legal proceedings. Ray, whose life was literally saved by Teddy, is now Haiti's Ambassador to the United States.

When asylum seekers were denied legal standing, Ted Kennedy authored and engineered the passage of the Refugee Act of 1980, helping to create a legal right to asylum.

When the U.S. government turned a blind eye to South Africa's State of Emergency and torture of young children, Ted Kennedy led the fight to pass the Anti-Apartheid Act of 1985, bringing U.S. policy into alignment with our values.

Wherever freedom's sons and daughters have been on the march for liberty -- from the Soviet Gulag to the streets of Central America, from Marcos' Philippines to the killing fields of Cambodia, Uganda, and now Darfur, Senator Ted Kennedy was their drum major for justice.

Here in the United States, he inspired, guided, and most importantly helped us provide protection and relief to some of the most vulnerable people on this planet. There is simply no one else like him.

Throughout my life, strangers have told me how Teddy was there when a child was diagnosed with cancer, when a father lost a job or had a blow to his reputation, when a wedding was to be celebrated. Over the last year, particularly these past few days, everywhere I have gone, people told stories about how Teddy changed their lives.

Heraldo Munoz told me how, as a young dissident in Chile under Pinochet, one night visiting his mother's house he heard sirens.

He looked out the window and saw a military battalion blocking the street. There was no escape. He saw his two best friends having already been captured, in the back of a pick up, blind folded and manacled. He turned to his wife and said, "They are coming to take me. Just be sure to call Ted Kennedy in Washington. He will save my life."

Today, Heraldo Munoz is the Chilean Ambassador to the United Nations.

Last June, I was at a fundraiser at Hickory Hill for major supporters of the Obama campaign. There was a couple with a distinctive accent, and I was not expecting such a dramatic response when I asked what brought them to the event that evening.

They said they'd met in Washington, D.C. as college students at American University. At the time, militants went on a rampage in Ethiopia and slaughtered every member of both of their families.

The I.N.S. denied their asylum claims, saying there was no evidence that this young couple was at risk should they attempt to return home.

Desperate, they went to the Senate, found Teddy's office, told him their story, and he went to work. They received asylum, started a business, and raised a son. Their son became the field organizer for Obama in northern Virginia, and they came that night to Hickory Hill, to express their gratitude to Ted Kennedy.

When Teddy saw an injustice happening in Guantanamo, he demanded an investigation.

In the fall of 2003, James Yee was known as the Muslim chaplain who had betrayed America. Accused of espionage, Army Captain James Yee saw his notoriety bloom overnight. According to USA Today, "He was vilified on the airwaves and on the Internet as an operative in a supposed spy ring that aimed to pass secrets to al-Qaeda from suspected terrorists held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where Yee ministered to them. After his arrest, Yee was blindfolded, placed in manacles and taken to a Navy brig, where he spent 76 days in solitary confinement." Meanwhile, his name was released to the press and became synonymous with traitor.

Eight months later, thanks to Teddy's demands for justice, the criminal charges against the 36-year-old West Point graduate melted away. A subsequent reprimand was removed from his record, and he left the military with an honorable discharge in January 2005.

I love Teddy, and I will miss him with all my heart. He was truly great.

Peace,
Kerry Kennedy

[The Rap]

Patrick Swayze, 57 RIP

I was never a great fan of Patrick's though he did have a large fan base. Sadly he died at a very young age but we all knew it was coming with his terminal illness. It was the measure of the man that he did a series called "The Beast" after being informed of his grave illness. I think he will alwys be remembered for his role in "Dirty Dancing." May he rest in peace.

[Lauren T.]

This (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu9mx_patrick-swayze-chippendale_dating) is how I'll always remember Swayze. :D

[Hobbes]

This (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu9mx_patrick-swayze-chippendale_dating) is how I'll always remember Swayze. :D

Yep, me too. One of the most fearless performances by a comedian I've ever seen (re: Farley). He really commits to that bit. It still makes me laugh out loud.

[Hillbilly]

Waking Up In Reno -- Swayze, Billy Bob Thornton, Natasha Richardson, and Charlize Theron. One of my all-time favorite comedies. Hilarious. :thumbsup:

[Wahoo]

This (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu9mx_patrick-swayze-chippendale_dating) is how I'll always remember Swayze. :D


This is how I'll remember him:

"Be nice until it's time to not be nice, and then be very not nice."


"What if someone calls my momma a whore?

Is she?"

[ScooterBrave]

I actually kind of liked him in Next of Kin. Not any worse than anything else he did. Overall, though, a quality guy.

The really bad news of this is that the Chick Channel, excuse me, LifeTime will probably be showing Ghost and Dirty Dancing multiple times over the next week.

[The Rap]

Mary Travers, 72 RIP

I guess I might have reached the age when they start to drop like flies, meaning my contemporaries or those just a little older than me.

I don't expect many of you to know her by name but she was the girl in Peter, Paul and Mary. The pleasure so many got from that trio and their superlative performances is huge. She was also an activist who stood against the War in Vietnam and for women's rights. Her beautiful voice allowed her to record solo work that was exemplary as well.

She suffured a lot in her later years from leukemia and my hope is that she has finally found peace.

[The Rap]

Henry Gibson, 73, RIP

For those of you who are old enough to remember the great show, "Laugh-In" which probably changed TV forever, it is sad to note that Henry Gibson, he of the large flower and great satirical nonsensical poetry has succumbed to cancer and passed away. Another one bites the dust. May he RIP.

[ScooterBrave]

Henry Gibson, 73, RIP

For those of you who are old enough to remember the great show, "Laugh-In" which probably changed TV forever, it is sad to note that Henry Gibson, he of the large flower and great satirical nonsensical poetry has succumbed to cancer and passed away. Another one bites the dust. May he RIP.

He was also on Boston Legal and, of course, played a Chicago Nazi Leader in the Blues Brothers movie. Funny guy, great delivery!

[bravos4evr]

and had a great role as a director in the great Robert Altman film Nashville!

[The Rap]

Larry Gelbart, 82, RIP

Among his accomplishments he will be best remembered for being the writer and creator of the show "Mash," one of the classic sitcoms in TV history. He was also loved by anyone who dealt with him.

[The Rap]

William Safire, RIP

I was never a big fan of Safire but always had admiration for his keen intellect and grasp of the English language. He worked as a speechwriter for Richard Nixon before going on to carve a wonderful career as a conservative columnist but it is his previous job working for someone I didn't like at all that tempers my feelings. May he rest in peace.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

R.I.P. whatever possible ort of a reputation John Phillips may have had left. He set a miserable example for his children with the rampant drug abuse, etc., but if what his kid, Mackenzie said about an incestual relationship is true, his gravesite should be razed and no mention of his memory made again. It'll be even harder than usual hearing a Mamas & Papas tune in the future.

[The Rap]

I agree but it would have to be proven to me since she has always been a bit off the wall. Think about the fact that it is easy to make an accusation when the person accused cannot respond.

[Lauren T.]

Even if he was alive, there's no way to "prove" something that happened so long ago. They both had mental illness and drug issues -- who knows what the truth is?

[The Rap]

true but when was the last time you even heard McKenzie being mentioned anywhere? To me it is a nut job trying to get a career jumpstarted. Think about it; she is claiming a long running thing. You would think after the first time, if true, John would have come out of his stupor and realized what he supposedly did.

[Lauren T.]

Think about it; she is claiming a long running thing. You would think after the first time, if true, John would have come out of his stupor and realized what he supposedly did.
You're assuming she's making the whole story up. What if he really did commit incest for ten years? What if he was so drugged up and/or so mentally ill that he thought it was okay? What if she was so drugged up and/or so mentally ill that she decided it was consensual?

I'm not taking sides because they both did a LOT of drugs and there's no way of knowing what the truth is.

[The Rap]

I know and am not arguing just saying who knows? What purpose was served by her bringing it up now?

[Lauren T.]

She's repeatedly said that she wants to bring "consensual incest" to the public eye, because it does happen, it's not right, and we don't really don't talk about it much.

[bravos4evr]

She's repeatedly said that she wants to bring "consensual incest" to the public eye, because it does happen, it's not right, and we don't really don't talk about it much.


Maybe Lauren I'm just cynical, but man it just reeks of self grandizement. It's like she is trying to turn this into publicity for a new book so she can cash in on her dead dad or something. Maybe it's true , maybe it's not. But, It really looks like an opportunistic kinda deal to me.

[Lauren T.]

Oh, I totally agree, and that's why I said I refuse to take sides. If she really is trying to bring consensual incest to awareness, that's fine, but she shouldn't sound so smug. It doesn't look well.

[The Rap]

I think we are all in agreement on this. Bottom line is who knows? But also consider what is at stake. For example Fred is a gentleman who always enjoyed the Mamas and Papas like I have. Now go back and read what he wrote.

[quick]

true but when was the last time you even heard McKenzie being mentioned anywhere? To me it is a nut job trying to get a career jumpstarted. Think about it; she is claiming a long running thing. You would think after the first time, if true, John would have come out of his stupor and realized what he supposedly did.

Who knows the truth, but Mackenzie hasn't had a career in years, and this kind of mess sure gets you on to the talk show circuit and jazzes things up a bit. And besides, Dad is dead--easy allegation to make.

I wonder what Michelle Phillips makes of all this? Not too much, from what I am reading.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

Rest in peace, Dr. No. The villain in the first James Bond thriller of the same name has died. Distinguished actor Joseph Wiseman was 92.

[Middle Man]

Soupy Sales (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_en_tv/us_obit_sales_20)

Dang, I hadn't thought about Soupy in years. It seemed like he was on TV constantly when I was a kid. The guy made a lot of people laugh. That's probably a good thing to be remembered for.

[The Rap]

[B]Wow I missed[ both of those guys. Wiseman was a classy actor who also played a key role in The Valachi Papers with Charles Bronson. Soupy was also famous for asking little kids to go to their mother's purses and sending him the green paper with the old presidents pictures on them. He was suspended for about a week if I remember well./B]

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I loved Soupy Sales as a kid. The guy was so silly and it always cracked me up because you just didn't see that many guys on tv behaving like a big kid. The pies in the face, "Do the Mouse" and Soupy answering his door were totally unsophisticated and captured his audience completely. I don't think I ever saw the guy when he wasn't laughing, or catching his breath from laughing. Rest in peace, Soupy!

[The Rap]

Soupy wasnlt a great talent but was able to do something fewe have been able to accomplish; Make a show geared to kids that adults would enjoy as well because of double meanings and such. It is why I always felt Bugs Bunny and his pals were better than Mickey and his ilk because their jokes had a different meaning to adults.

[The Rap]

Lou Jacobi. 95, RIP

I presume that not many might remember Lou. He was a star of stage and screen playing mostly Jewish ethnic characters. I have an album which starred in called "You don't have to be Jewish . . ." The guy was absolutely hysterical. May he RIP

[wordslayer©]

If this thread gets watered down much more, the next "tribute" will be something like:

"Bob Thompson, long time Rotary club member, died this past week. He was 62 years old. He mostly made appearances at local high school basketball games and competed in local bass club tournaments. His well manicured lawns and neighborhood barbeques will be missed. Rest in peace, Bob."

[Dreamscape]

If this thread gets watered down much more, the next "tribute" will be something like:

"Bob Thompson, long time Rotary club member, died this past week. He was 62 years old. He mostly made appearances at local high school basketball games and competed in local bass club tournaments. His well manicured lawns and neighborhood barbeques will be missed. Rest in peace, Bob."
Um, hello, Bob was also a superb bowler.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

You forgot to mention that Bob frequently lost his swimsuit at the country club in front of everyone else's wives, played Santa at Christmas and drove golf balls through trees. He had a perpetual smile and his wife was usually blushing and content.

"Watered down?" Do the obits have to meet your criteria now, Wordy? I figure somebody hung Rap's moniker on here, we can kick in with whatever we like until he says it isn't acceptable. You obviously read the thread so quit trying to sound so above it......

[Freddy_Ballgame]

BTW, Michael, I remember Lou Jacobi. Dude was in everything from tv to broadway. He was a legitimate actor and was also a pretty funny comic. He was pretty good in Amazon Women on the Moon! He guested in so many different tv shows in the 60s and 70s it would be hard to list them.

[wordslayer©]

You forgot to mention that Bob frequently lost his swimsuit at the country club in front of everyone else's wives, played Santa at Christmas and drove golf balls through trees. He had a perpetual smile and his wife was usually blushing and content.

"Watered down?" Do the obits have to meet your criteria now, Wordy? I figure somebody hung Rap's moniker on here, we can kick in with whatever we like until he says it isn't acceptable. You obviously read the thread so quit trying to sound so above it......

A) Why can't I try to sound above it? If I fail, then I just look like a fool, and since looking like a fool doesn't really bother me, then why can't I try to sound above it?

B) Do you owe Rap money or something?

C) Rap posts in his thread about dead people. I post about people posting about dead people. I draw stupid inference, which causes people to not like me. What's the harm here?

D) I am trying to think about all my posts that I've taken you to task on about where you sounded like a jerk.....hmmm....just went through them all in my head and there were.....none of them.

E) I am trying to think of all my posts where I whined about people saying non-personal things and told them to not say it. Again, there were none of them.

F) How you responded to me is just as obtuse as I was to Michael. Lead by example....give me a shining star to shoot for. Bright, smart, articulate people raise the bar. Raise that bar for me, Freddy!

Now, here is the fun part. We've got two ways to go here. You can respond to my childish comments and say something like.....

"why are you such an a$$? I was just defending michael against your juvenile like behavior in the things you said. You often think you are funny, but you just come off as being a dick and groveling for attention. It's never funny using someone as a tool for your sadistic pleasures."

And then I can respond by trying to use some stupid justification about how uptight people are and how we all need to be more tolerant of people's behaviors and really faking a genuine concern about your feelings and....yada, yada, yada.

And then we can take turns bashing each other and look like bickering children. After we do that for a few posts, we can have a moderator step in and tell us that we need to step back and relax. We then will realize our stupidity and we may even send each other stupid syrupy pm's that profess how sorry we are and how we both overreacted.

I don't know Freddy.....I *might* want to bicker back and forth with you for a while, but seriously, by 10:00 I am done. And if you want Michael to help argue your point with you, I'm okay with that, because I kind of did bring it on myself by making such a juvenile comment in his thread, But again....I am NOT arguing past 10:00. I am putting a curfew on our childish behaviors.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... .........

[ScooterBrave]

Soupy wasnlt a great talent but was able to do something fewe have been able to accomplish; Make a show geared to kids that adults would enjoy as well because of double meanings and such. It is why I always felt Bugs Bunny and his pals were better than Mickey and his ilk because their jokes had a different meaning to adults.

Yeah, we don't wanna start giving our kids anything wholesome or anything like that....

[ScooterBrave]

See, now, Slayer, after ten is when most people START their childish behavior.....

If you don't want to do the syrupy PMs, you can do them publicly here. That'll be good fodder until, say, 10:00.

[The Rap]

Well the problem might emanate from the difference in ages. I remember Lou Jacobi vividly and therefore felt saddened by his passing. Many here are too young to remember or even have heard of him so they may be scratching their heads thinking the thread is being watered down.

[bravos4evr]

A) Why can't I try to sound above it? If I fail, then I just look like a fool, and since looking like a fool doesn't really bother me, then why can't I try to sound above it?

B) Do you owe Rap money or something?

C) Rap posts in his thread about dead people. I post about people posting about dead people. I draw stupid inference, which causes people to not like me. What's the harm here?

D) I am trying to think about all my posts that I've taken you to task on about where you sounded like a jerk.....hmmm....just went through them all in my head and there were.....none of them.

E) I am trying to think of all my posts where I whined about people saying non-personal things and told them to not say it. Again, there were none of them.

F) How you responded to me is just as obtuse as I was to Michael. Lead by example....give me a shining star to shoot for. Bright, smart, articulate people raise the bar. Raise that bar for me, Freddy!

Now, here is the fun part. We've got two ways to go here. You can respond to my childish comments and say something like.....

"why are you such an a$$? I was just defending michael against your juvenile like behavior in the things you said. You often think you are funny, but you just come off as being a dick and groveling for attention. It's never funny using someone as a tool for your sadistic pleasures."

And then I can respond by trying to use some stupid justification about how uptight people are and how we all need to be more tolerant of people's behaviors and really faking a genuine concern about your feelings and....yada, yada, yada.

And then we can take turns bashing each other and look like bickering children. After we do that for a few posts, we can have a moderator step in and tell us that we need to step back and relax. We then will realize our stupidity and we may even send each other stupid syrupy pm's that profess how sorry we are and how we both overreacted.

I don't know Freddy.....I *might* want to bicker back and forth with you for a while, but seriously, by 10:00 I am done. And if you want Michael to help argue your point with you, I'm okay with that, because I kind of did bring it on myself by making such a juvenile comment in his thread, But again....I am NOT arguing past 10:00. I am putting a curfew on our childish behaviors.




I'm so glad that this was saved via the bulletin board system! Cuz if it had been a conversation I woulda missed it! Gold Jerry GOLD!!!!!!!!!

[The Rap]

The Victims at Fort Hood, RIP

No one could be more celebrity than all the innocent victims of what happened at Fort Hood yesterday. My heart goes out to all the families and the nation should grieve like never before. RIP

[luvdembravos]

The Victims at Fort Hood, RIP

No one could be more celebrity than all the innocent victims of what happened at Fort Hood yesterday. My heart goes out to all the families and the nation should grieve like never before. RIP

I agree with Ralph Peters Link (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/call_this_horror_by_its_name_islamist_HT78Wt6NkWoCGq5HIOwlII)

[The Rap]

I agree with most of it too. There should be an investigation of those at Fort Hood who must have noticed the guy's behavior and the inherent dangers carried within. I am not condemning all Muslims for this guy's actions but to me the miniute I heard he scream "Allah Akubah" right before he opened fire then I believed he was an Islamic terrorist. My problem still remains with how this could have happened in the midst of a military fort when everything points to the fact he did nothing to hide his hatred and violent thinking.

[ScooterBrave]

Just to add to this, we had the shooter in Orlando who killed one person and wounded many more at his former place of employment. Fired two years ago, he goes back and starts shooting up the place. The person killed had nothing to do with his losing his job. Asked why he did it, the shooter replied, "because they left me to rot!" Ironically, they tracked him down through his high-end cell phone and found his late model Nissan SUV in front of his mother's apartment.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I noticed today that during the past week we had 3 more celebs cash in.
Edward Woodward, 79, was an easily recognizable face and voice. He starred in the tv series "The Equalizer," and I also remember him from "Breaker Morant." He was quite effective playing sophisticated types and did a lot of voice-over work.
Dennis Cole, 69, was pretty much a tv star back in the 60s and 70s. I remember him from an old show called, "Felony Squad," a somewhat gritty, for the day, police drama that paired him with Howard Duff. Cole was also married at one time to former "Charlie's Angel," Jaclyn Smith.
Finally, I suppose this guy could be called a celeb....former MTV gameshow host Ken Ober, 52, was found dead in his home. Ober emceed the crazy gameshow, "Remote Control," back in the 80s. His sidekick was Colin Quinn and the resident hottie was Kari Wuhrer. I used to watch the show which featured contestants sitting in huge strato-lounger type chairs answering trivia questions about old tv shows. It was pretty bad but it usually had pretty funny stuff happening during the show, planned or unplanned.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I was saddened to see that Eric Woolfson, a founding member of The Alan Parsons Project, has died. I love this group. As much as I love basic rock and roll, I love rock blended with orchestral and synthesized depth. The Alan Parsons Project began with "Tales of Mystery and Imagination, by Edgar Allen Poe," as subject matter, which they mastered, and moved forward to record even more deep and compelling material. They forged an unique territory during their heyday, and I will always be a fan.
I also noticed that famed Irish actor, Richard Todd, died. He was great in "The Longest Day," the WWII flick in which he recreated some of his own wartime exploits, and terrific in "A Man Called Peter," which recalled the life of US Senate chaplain, Peter Marshall.

[The Rap]

Twenty nine years ago I was home around nine in the evening and in bed watching TV with my wife. The phone rang and it was one of my employees crying and telling me that John Lennon had just been gunned down outside the Dakota where he lived. I was stunned. I cried plenty over the next few days and miss him terribly to this day. May he RIP.

[Freddy_Ballgame]

I just noticed where Gene Barry died. Dude starred as Bat Masterson for a few years in the late fifties. I loved this show as a kid, but never understood how Bat could live in the old west and never get dirty! Mo'fo was always clean, wearing expensive suits and whuppin' A' with a cane and a little bitty pistol. He later showed up as ultra-suave chief of detectives in L.A., and a millionaire to boot! Dude tooled around on his cases in a Rolls, complete with a driver! After a year or two, and the success of James Bond, he became Amos Burke, Secret Agent! I enjoyed both shows as a kid because they had some action and were about the campiest offerings this side of the Batman show with Adam West, which came later.
R.I.P., Gene Barry!

[The Rap]

I remember watching that show religiously as a kid. Really different fr the same reasons you described. Thing to remember is that it is based on a true figure in America's western history.

[jlcct]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/tombstone.jpg

[FrankEC]

Wow, Brittany Murphy died yesterday at the age of 32. Apparently there were no signs of foul play or trauma.

Clueless is one of my all time favorite movies. She was also brilliant in Girl Interrupted and Sin City.

RIP Brittany...

[Chris_Moderato]

Wow, Brittany Murphy died yesterday at the age of 32. Apparently there were no signs of foul play or trauma.

Clueless is one of my all time favorite movies. She was also brilliant in Girl Interrupted and Sin City.

RIP Brittany...

Yeah, a definite shocker. This sucks. Don't forget her greatest work: Luanne Platter on King of the Hill.

It's a real eye-opener for me since she was only a year older than me.

[Lauren T.]

It's a real eye-opener for me since she was only a year older than me.
Well, you're neither anorexic nor do people expect cocaine to be involved in your death.

Everyone together: "That was way harsh, Tai." ;)

[The Rap]

All of Hollywood is going nuts right now because they are so shocked. hard to figure until after the autopsy.

[wordslayer©]

yeah, it's always so shocking to see a hollywood death, especially if there are drugs involved. Gawsh, on the movie screen they seem so normal.

[Wahoo]

Well, you're neither anorexic nor do people expect cocaine to be involved in your death.

Everyone together: "That was way harsh, Tai." ;)

LOL, but not harsh, just on point. Can't die of a heart attack at 32 (a woman no less) and not expect there to be something else at work (unless a genetic defect).

[Chris_Moderato]

LOL, but not harsh, just on point. Can't die of a heart attack at 32 (a woman no less) and not expect there to be something else at work (unless a genetic defect).

I dated a girl who, some years later, went into cardiac arrest (which, she subsequently explained at great length, is not the same as a heart attack) in her late-20s. It turned out she has a heart defect, though.

[Hobbes]

FYI Lauren, I caught the Clueless reference. :)