Gamethread: Yankees @ Braves, June 24, 2009 (71/162) LOSS

[Andy G.]

Kawakami took a line drive off his neck at the end of the third inning. He hadn't allowed a baserunner at that point. I hope he's ok. He's been pitching really well lately, and I like the way he carries himself on the mound. Medlen's in now and has gotten the first two hitters out in the fourth.

They showed a graphic on PTV that showed the NL Team Leaders in batting average with 2 outs and runners in scoring position. The Braves have more than a forty point lead on the second place team. The Braves are hitting .312 in that situation. The second place team was at .269.

Medlen just got the third out. Nobody has reached base for the Yankees through four innings.

Go Braves!

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Thanks, I was trying to find out what happened to KK. Hope he's ok, he has been showing some great signs. He even got thorough the first 2 innings on just a handful of pitches. Looks like we will get a good look at Medlen.

[Hobbes]

I.

Hate.

Rick.

Suckcliffe.

[Hobbes]

Medlen is cruising along quite nicely so far.

[BraveFan]

something is happening in Atlanta, I won't say what it is but through five innings it is happening.

[Hobbes]

Francoeur goes deep!

[Dreamscape]

Kawakami has been fairly good over the past handful or so starts. He will never be an ace, but solid, he seems capable of doing.

The French Prince...just homered.

Yep.

[Dreamscape]

Kawakami has been fairly good over the past handful or so starts. He will never be an ace, but solid, he seems capable of doing.

The French Prince...just homered.

Yep.

[BraveFan]

Francoeur hit the HR b/c he got extension, when he gets his bat fully extended he hammers the ball.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Oh damn, its that time of the yr again already?

[BraveFan]

Good news: small Contusion for KK nothing real serious it seems.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

gamecast had that third ball in the center square..

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

strange stat, medlen has an era of 5.40 but an opponent BA of just .214

[Hobbes]

Braves just got the benefit of a bad call on the pickoff.

[BraveFan]

Finally the Umps give the Braves a call, hit the showers Joe.

[wordslayer©]

I think the runner was safe, but contrary to what the announcers say, it was close.

[Hobbes]

And the pickoff helps after the annoyingly demonstrative catcher knocks a homer.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Damn.... that pitch wasn't even a strike.... there goes the No-NO and Shutout streak.

[The Rap]

This is the first time I have seen Medlen pitch and to me he looks like he is 12 years old.

[Hobbes]

I think the runner was safe, but contrary to what the announcers say, it was close.
Yeah, it was quite close. Suckcliffe is dumber than a rock.

[JanShan12]

I.

Hate.

Rick.

Suckcliffe.

The reason I have the game on mute!

[Hobbes]

Bases loaded now for A-Rod.

Bennett coming into the game. :no:

[BraveFan]

Its pretty funny that the Braves are pitching around Teixeira to face the "best player" in the MLB.

[RiknTN]

Bases loaded now for A-Rod.

Bennett coming into the game. :no:

I can see a Grand Slam in the near future.......................

[Dreamscape]

I don't think Medlen was pitching around him, myself. It makes no baseball sense to do so.

[JanShan12]

Its pretty funny that the Braves are pitching around Teixeira to face the "best player" in the MLB.


Very! But I would rather be beat by A-Roid than Tex at Turner Field.

[Hobbes]

And now it's 3-1 Yankmees.

[JanShan12]

Damn! Bennett is not the kind of guy you bring in with runners on.

[BraveFan]

WTF 0-2 Fastball right down the middle.

[Dreamscape]

"If" he was pitched around, you just saw why that would be pretty dumb. You never ever ever load the bases when the hitter that will follow is someone with the capacity to really hurt you.

[Andy G.]

And the pickoff helps after the annoyingly demonstrative catcher knocks a homer.
Yeah that was really annoying. I don't like that guy.

And we're out of it. Alright Braves, get those runs back!

[JanShan12]

Ok, time to post at least 2 runs...

[Hobbes]

And now the two numbnuts doing the broadcasting are making like Girardi getting tossed was the reason for the Yankees scoring some runs.

Why are so many baseball announcers such morons?

[JanShan12]

Yeah that was really annoying. I don't like that guy.

He seems like a typical Yankees player. :thumbsdown:

[Dreamscape]

WTF 0-2 Fastball right down the middle.
He threw four fastballs right down the middle, actually.

[RiknTN]

Damn! Bennett is not the kind of guy you bring in with runners on.

Bennett is not the kind of guy you should bring in ANYTIME

[Dreamscape]

Bennett is not the kind of guy you should bring in ANYTIME
AND...he lowered his ERA to 3.00 with his one out.

[BraveFan]

Mac deserves some blame for that A-Rod AB for the pitching calling.

[Andy G.]

Mac deserves some blame for that A-Rod AB for the pitching calling.
It was good pitch calling. ARod can't hit hard fastballs right now. The reason he hit the last one was because it was a two seamer and it was out away from him, which means he doesn't have to catch it out front in order to hit it hard. That pitch never should have caught any of the plate. McCann wanted it to start off the plate and move towards it, just to see if ARod would swing. The next pitch I'm sure was either going to be a high four seamer to blow it past him again, or he would have called for a junk ball, out of the zone, then come back with the four seamer on 2-2, and again on 3-2 if Bennett missed high with it.

[sdp]

Thanks for getting a thread up. I can't catch a break lately.

[bravestud]

Can we please get rid of this fatass already?

[BraveFan]

Bennett sucks, needs to be cut tomorrow.

[BigWorm]

Jeff Bennett and Chip Caray better hope I never see either of them in public.

[BraveFan]

Dumbass ESPN can't even show the right highlight they showed the highlight of the Yankees winning the 96 series and said it was the 1999th WS.

[Dreamscape]

Jeff Bennett makes me want Kevin Gryboski back.

Ugh.

[Dreamscape]

Jeff Bennett makes me want Kevin Gryboski back.

Ugh.

[wordslayer©]

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I think Bennett did a fine job. He saved us two runs there. I was expecting a grand slam.

[BraveFan]

Why in the world does Acosta never pitch? He has a lot better stuff than Bennett.

[JanShan12]

Any chance we come back?

[Andy G.]

Any chance we come back?
This team doesn't quit. They've shown that this year. There's definitely a chance.

Kelly hustles out a bunt!

[Hobbes]

KJ figures he'll try a bunt single, and he barely makes it.

[Dreamscape]

Nice, KJ. Very nice.

[JanShan12]

I hope you're right, Gilley. A rally here to take Joba out of the game would be nice.

[BraveFan]

This ump sucks it should be a 3 and 0 count on Prado.

[Hobbes]

Prado sneaks one in to make it 4-2.

[Dreamscape]

Umpire has a loose strike zone, but Joba gave Prado too much of the plate on that last one.

Thanks, Joba!

[Dreamscape]

Quick aside. Wasting Dory (damn fish) to pinch hit for Konami really sucks. By using Prado and Blanco, you really are limiting your bench.

[bravestud]

GAH, I thought McLouth had just parked one.

[Hobbes]

McLouth juuuust misses a homer. But he does get a run in.

[Andy G.]

Nate just missed that one. One run game now and Blanco can score on a gapper. Come on Escobar. I wanna see Chipper hit this inning!

[Hobbes]

GAH, I thought McLouth had just parked one.
I'm sure Chip Caray did too.

[Dreamscape]

Shame this game wasn't at Yankee Stadium. Would have been an easy three-run bomb.

[Dreamscape]

Uh O'Flaherty is in.

Sometimes, I forget how much ths bullpen worries me. And then, they come into the game.

[BraveFan]

That Swisher HR better not cost us this game. Its one thing to give up a HR to A-Rod but to leave Bennett in there for a HR to Swisher is another.

[Hobbes]

Where the hell was O'Flaherty on that play?

[JanShan12]

Sprint to 1b, o'flaherty!!!

[JanShan12]

Why have Soriano and Gonzalez been the only guys in our bullpen to get outs lately? It's very frustrating.

[BraveFan]

This team doesn't deserve to win, O'Flaherty doesn't cover first and then he gives up a hit and now a whild pitch.

[Hobbes]

Why have Soriano and Gonzalez been the only guys in our bullpen to get outs lately? It's very frustrating.
Those are the two who have talent.

Ugh, walking the bases loaded with no outs. This can't end well.

[bravestud]

Looks like Eric O'Flaherty finally woke up and remembered he's Eric O'Flaherty.

[Dreamscape]

The whole bullpen + Kotchman is on the take! Get Judge Kennesaw Mountain Landis on this. I haven't seen play like this since 1919.

[BraveFan]

I hate umpires, that should have been a double play.

[Hobbes]

Suckcliffe drones on about how KJ was positioned poorly and then reverses himself when the replay shows Cano was inside the line.

Then the other idiot doesn't realize that the rules don't allow Cano to be inside the line.

[Dreamscape]

Hey, Sutcliffe, how much time did KJ have to completely change directions and move toward the other side of the foul line? Nevertheless, the throw has to lead him one way or the other. McCann had no real chance after the throw took him where it did.

[JanShan12]

What a night! That clearly hit him in fair territory. Umps usually don't hesitate to make that call. Braves down by 3 now going into the bottom of the 8th.

[BraveFan]

O'Flaherty gets hosed by the Umps again.

[Andy G.]

Another obvious call goes against the Braves. I know every team has calls go against them, but the Braves keep having obvious calls go againt them. It's ridiculous. The pickoff earlier was a very close play. That could have gone either way. The call that the umpires just missed is an embarrasment. Completely inexcusable, and it's happening way too much.

It should still be 4-3 right now.

[BigWorm]

Cheese and rice. These umpires have *******s tighter than a jew on vacation. Relax I attend Passover, this joke was cleared with the Jewish Coalition.

[Dreamscape]

Another obvious call goes against the Braves. I know every team has calls go against them, but the Braves keep having obvious calls go againt them. It's ridiculous. The pickoff earlier was a very close play. That could have gone either way. The call that the umpires just missed is an embarrasment. Completely inexcusable, and it's happening way too much.

It should still be 4-3 right now.

I don't agree. Both were bad calls, but both were borderline bad calls. Cano wasn't that outside the running lane.

Fact is...it's easy to say calls go against your team because you are already invested in it. Braves just aren't a good enough team to have anything not go their way.

[wordslayer©]

If we lose this game, it would bother me a little, but this is like our second winning streak within the past week or so.

[Andy G.]

I don't agree. Both were bad calls, but both were borderline bad calls. Cano wasn't that outside the running lane.

Fact is...it's easy to say calls go against your team because you are already invested in it. Braves just aren't a good enough team to have anything not go their way.
That was not a borderline call. It was an obvious one. It doesn't matter how good the team is. If a player is out he's out. That's ridiculous. The call was messed up and it shouldn't have been, and it's been happening A LOT to the Braves.

[BraveFan]

Question: If Kelly Johnson would have kept arguing and gotten ejected who would have come in to play 2B? We already used Hernandez and Prado.

[sdp]

Question: If Kelly Johnson would have kept arguing and gotten ejected who would have come in to play 2B? We already used Hernandez and Prado.

Cadahia.

[Hobbes]

Yeah, Jeter's number may be retired by the Yankees someday. :rolleyes:

[Andy G.]

Excellent at bat Frenchy!

[BigWorm]

Um yeah. Francoeur is awesome. Screw you guys. Cartman style.

[Hobbes]

Jeff gets a run in.

This would be a good time for one of your all-too-rare homers KJ.

[BraveFan]

good job Jeff, lets go KJ.

[Dreamscape]

That was not a borderline call. It was an obvious one. It doesn't matter how good the team is. If a player is out he's out. That's ridiculous. The call was messed up and it shouldn't have been, and it's been happening A LOT to the Braves.
It went against the Braves, but it was hardly the call you're trying to make it into. It's obvious to you because it was the Braves that got hurt.

[sdp]

Francoeur with two RBI tonight. The Braves have called a post-game press conference to announce a 5-year, $62MM deal.

[BigWorm]

Godspeed Infante. Godspeed.

[Dreamscape]

I don't think KJ had one hittable pitch that at-bat and that last one...

Oh, crap, the late 90's Rivera is in the game.

[BraveFan]

Its not 2000 any more so all the love for Rivera and Jeter needs to end from ESPN.

[Andy G.]

It went against the Braves, but it was hardly the call you're trying to make it into. It's obvious to you because it was the Braves that got hurt.
Dude, you'll take the same stance you're taking right now 100% of the time. It's not an obvious call to you because you want to sound objective.

Give it a rest. I saw the guy running inside the baseline ten feet in front of the bag and get hit with the throw before he reached the base. That runner is obviously out. The replay even showed that the home plate umpire hadn't look up from the home plate to even attempt to make the call. The first base umpire was on the second base side of the bag, so nobody saw the play, and they missed it. It was as obvious as they come.

[Dreamscape]

I saw the same play. I agree it was a bad call. What I don't agree with is the victimization of "oh, it always happens to the Braves." No, it happens to every team and the only reason you don't remember it and choose to get all up in arms is because it's your team that is getting hurt this time. And I think the call was close enough in real time to be a borderline call. The kinds that happen a million times during the season.

I also wasn't very impressed with the ESPN production crew/camera crew.

[BigWorm]

Poo Poo didn't give very good effort there. Piss Poor.

[Dreamscape]

Nice job keeping the ball in front of you, Esco.

[Hobbes]

Game has turned ugly.

[Andy G.]

I saw the same play. I agree it was a bad call. What I don't agree with is the victimization of "oh, it always happens to the Braves." No, it happens to every team and the only reason you don't remember it and choose to get all up in arms is because it's your team that is getting hurt this time. And I think the call was close enough in real time to be a borderline call. The kinds that happen a million times during the season.

I also wasn't very impressed with the ESPN production crew/camera crew.
I'm not a little kid Dream. I know baseball, I know that bad calls happen, and I know that fans like to think it's worse for their team when really it's the same everywhere. You're not introducing some new concept to me. I'm not an idiot. Believe it or not, I'm a little bit smarter than that.

Everybody but you seems to realize that Braves are getting the short end of a lot of bad calls this year. It's happened more than usual. It's happened enough to warrant me "getting up in arms". If Joe Simpson is willing to cut the Braves some slack and acknowledge this fact, it must be true. I'm not foolish, or dumb, enough to convince myself that this sort of thing is happenning if I haven't seen it with my own eyes. I'm not seven years old.

[BraveFan]

Game over already play for tomorrow, time for Acosta to throw a 98mph fastball at River's head.

[Hobbes]

Rivera up for only his second career at-bat.

[Dreamscape]

I'm quite sure you are at least eight.

Oh, I kid. Actually, I only see you repeating the claim that it's the Braves getting the short end of the stick game in and game out. Sure, time to time, we all say it. But I haven't seen it as a chief reason amongst Braves fans things haven't gone well this year. Not like Francoeur, KJ, Anderson, Krotchy, McCann's eyes, Chipper's frailty, Escobar's lack of concentration, Infante's injury, the bullpen being so unreliable, the bullpen under the watch of Bobby Cox, Terry Pendleton, Bobby Cox. But it's easy to understand. It happens when a team simply isn't good enough to compete. You look for reasons and the easy target is the umpires or luck because neither can be explained. Of course things are going to go bad when you need luck or no call going against you to win. Of course things aren't going to end up all pretty.

Joe Simpson saying something is more of a reason for me to not believe it. I tend to play the opposite game with him and it has worked out thus far.

[Dreamscape]

Game over already play for tomorrow, time for Acosta to throw a 98mph fastball at River's head.
Thank God you are not a manager.

[BigWorm]

Embarrassing.

[Andy G.]

I'm quite sure you are at least eight.

Oh, I kid. Actually, I only see you repeating the claim that it's the Braves getting the short end of the stick game in and game out. Sure, time to time, we all say it. But I haven't seen it as a chief reason amongst Braves fans things haven't gone well this year. Not like Francoeur, KJ, Anderson, Krotchy, McCann's eyes, Chipper's frailty, Escobar's lack of concentration, Infante's injury, the bullpen being so unreliable, the bullpen under the watch of Bobby Cox, Terry Pendleton, Bobby Cox. But it's easy to understand. It happens when a team simply isn't good enough to compete. You look for reasons and the easy target is the umpires or luck because neither can be explained. Of course things are going to go bad when you need luck or no call going against you to win. Of course things aren't going to end up all pretty.

Joe Simpson saying something is more of a reason for me to not believe it. I tend to play the opposite game with him and it has worked out thus far.
Dude, you're as simple minded as the people you're describing. The only difference is that you see things differently than the everyday fan, the type of person that searches for reasons to explain why their teams sucks. Instead, you search for reasons why that everyday fan is kidding himself. Try accepting the fact that other people are as smart as you, and that we might actually believe this because we've seen it happen, not because we're trying to explain to ourselves why our team is losing when we think it should be winning.

The Braves have had more than their fair share of bad calls go against them this year. I watch every single game, and I've seen it happen. I'm not using it to explain why they're not winning. I just know it's happened.

[Dreamscape]

Try to accept that I accept people are smarter than me. When I disagree with you, gilley, it's because I don't agree with you. I don't pretend that you're not smart enough to understand, I just explain to you when I feel the way I do.

Okay, you know its happening. Where is the record of "bad calls" going against teams that I can look up? Oh, I know there is none, but you are basing your entire argument on a completely subjective point of view. As am I, this I know. But what I'm doing is trying to explain why one would you focus on the subjective and just how "obvious" a bad call was.

But I can definitely tell you I'm tired of "simple-minded," "give it a rest," etc. So you can have the final word or whatever.

[BraveFan]

The whole game changed when Kenshin had to leave the game, he was ontop of his game tonight and who knows what woud of happen if he would have pitched longer.

The Biggest problem for the Braves is that they have to play near perfect baseball to win the game. The Braves biggest problem is their lack of power on offense sure they have a lot of good singles hitter but its hard to make comebacks and win games by singling teams to death. Add ontop of that poor defense or bad mental plays and the Braves have a real good shot at losing.

I think the reason the Braves haven't shopped Vazquez hard for that bat is b/c of Medlen, if he was pitching okay the Braves would be more willing to trade Javier and have Medlen fill in before Hudson comes back.

[KB 34]

The reason the Braves aren't shopping Vazquez is they have really good memories of how hard it was to get a pitcher of Vazquez's caliber to begin with. If things fell into place perfectly there could be a reason to deal him but there would have to be a couple moves lined up and ready to go. It's a lot easier to fix an outfield than a starting rotation.

[Dreamscape]

They have to shop him at some point right? They can't possibly have both Vazquez and Hudson coming back next year and while the latter is very much a question mark right now, Tommy John has a high success rate.

I don't think they would shop him because they will believe they are in it since technically, they very much are. I don't see them really competiting with this club, but it's hard to argue against four or five games out.

[argentina brave]

Its not 2000 any more so all the love for Rivera and Jeter needs to end from ESPN.

umm, jeter's the best position player of our generation in my ever so humble opinion. one of the true yankee greats. he'll put up musial-esque hit totals before it's all said and done. :)

i believe every word of that, and i loathe the yankees with every neutron in my body.

[Dreamscape]

I can see hating Jeter. He's been a pretty good player, but has he ever been a truly great one? Maybe a year here and there. Nevertheless, because of his stature as captain of the New York Yankees, he has received so much media attention, it borders on insane. I don't like him much myself.

But Rivera? I mean, all the guy does is quietly go out there and put up other-worldly numbers year-in and year-out. He's not a diva closer, overly theatrical. Just does his job. There are few pitchers I would want to watch other than him.

Granted, it sucks when it's the Braves he's pitching against. Some of the pitches he threw tonight had some insane movement. Tim Spooneybarger had the potential to be a poor man's Rivera on movement alone, but never could.

[bravos4evr]

The best position player of yer generation? hmmm, better than Pujols? Better than Chipper? better than about 50 other guys?

Jeter is the most overrated player of your generation. If he played for the Royals he'd be Orlando Hudson..... IMo if he didn't make 3000 hits he wouldn't and shouldn't even be a HOF'er!

Mediocre defender, not the greatest arm ever, mediocre power, good average..... above average player but not elite iMO.

I hate Jeter and if I was pitching I'd hit im in the head every at bat.

yes I hate him that much. if I told you what I really think of him I'd get banned!

[KB 34]

They have to shop him at some point right? They can't possibly have both Vazquez and Hudson coming back next year and while the latter is very much a question mark right now, Tommy John has a high success rate.

I don't think they would shop him because they will believe they are in it since technically, they very much are. I don't see them really competiting with this club, but it's hard to argue against four or five games out.
There's a good chance Hudson returns successfully but it's far from a guarantee. Assuming he returns the next question is how much Hudson is worth. If he's lights out down the stretch he declines his part of the option for next season. If he really struggles the Braves decline their part of the option. under either of these circumstances who knows if a deal gets done. The best chance for a deal is if he does well enough to make the Braves think he's worth $12 million but enough question marks remain where Hudson wants another year to prove his worth. Looking at the potential outcomes I have to say the odds favor Hudson not being back with the Braves next season. No, this isn't necessarily bad or good because Hudson could lead the Braves to a WS victory and get someone to give him $100 million for all I know. A lot of things have to fall into place for him to return. A lot of things can fall apart for him not to.

[bravos4evr]

After last offseason, I can't imagine that he would void his option..... Two months isn't enough time to show that he's ready IMO. Not enough time that another team would give him a raise over $12 million!

[argentina brave]

The best position player of yer generation? hmmm, better than Pujols? Better than Chipper? better than about 50 other guys?

Jeter is the most overrated player of your generation. If he played for the Royals he'd be Orlando Hudson..... IMo if he didn't make 3000 hits he wouldn't and shouldn't even be a HOF'er!

Mediocre defender, not the greatest arm ever, mediocre power, good average..... above average player but not elite iMO.

I hate Jeter and if I was pitching I'd hit im in the head every at bat.

yes I hate him that much. if I told you what I really think of him I'd get banned!

really?! perhaps it isn't the time and place to get into a protracted struggle with yourself and dreamscape over jeter, but you have to ask yourself if the yankees win all those championships without derek jeter. is it the chicken or the egg? sure, the espn guys drone on, and there is a lot of other 'noise', but (and i even hesitate to bring this up since this is a salient issue as well around here) he is clutch, has the 4th best lifetime average among yankees all-time, just passed babe ruth for doubles, has a legit shot at around 3500 hits, plays the most demanding defensive position in the game, has 4 world titles, makes memorable play after memorable play (even if espn's sycophants make us all want to puke).

hey, i hate those guys too! but, i really respect jeter, and think he'll be remembered very fondly, while the a-roids, bonds, and mcgwire goons fade into obscurity.

orlando hudson? really?!

[KB 34]

After last offseason, I can't imagine that he would void his option..... Two months isn't enough time to show that he's ready IMO. Not enough time that another team would give him a raise over $12 million!
Pitchers did quite well last offseason, ask Burnett, CC, or Lowe. A lot of position players and relievers would disagree but I felt starting pitchers did quite well. I agree that 2 months isn't enough time but that doesn't mean a team won't risk it. It doesn't mean Hudson won't risk it either. Smoltz getting the Yankees offer and Braves contract is still fresh in my mind and I wouldn't be surprised to see that kind of interest in him after the same kind of season again with Hudson.

[bravos4evr]

Derek Jeter: Career OPS-.844 OPS+ 120 , doubles per season avg 34, hr's per season average 17, batting average career-.315 total fielding rubs above average career -105.6 ,RISP career OPS .839





Barry Larkin OPS-.815 OPS+ 116, doubles per season avg 33, HR per season avg 15, career batt. avg-.295 , total fielding runs above average career +28.1 , RISP career OPS .836

I think that Jeter compares well with Larkin. I am not of the opinion that larkin is a HOF player .

If you look at the two Jeter has the edge in avg and a small lead in OPS. they are virtual ties everywhere else except for defense where Larkin is significantly better even taking into account that he played for cruddier teams and was old in his latter years of his career ( that Jeter is now entering). I think Larkin was the more valuable player of the two!

Jeter is a good player, a solid player, but he is a vastly overrated player due to the fact that he happened to play some of his career for very good teams who won. If he gets the credit for them winning the 4 titles, where is all the blame for not winning for over 10 years with the highest payroll in the game?

[Andy G.]

Try to accept that I accept people are smarter than me. When I disagree with you, gilley, it's because I don't agree with you. I don't pretend that you're not smart enough to understand, I just explain to you when I feel the way I do.

Okay, you know its happening. Where is the record of "bad calls" going against teams that I can look up? Oh, I know there is none, but you are basing your entire argument on a completely subjective point of view. As am I, this I know. But what I'm doing is trying to explain why one would you focus on the subjective and just how "obvious" a bad call was.

But I can definitely tell you I'm tired of "simple-minded," "give it a rest," etc. So you can have the final word or whatever.
I'm not getting the "final word or whatever", I'm just explaining to you why I feel the way I do.

By saying, "It's obvious to you because it was the Braves that got hurt.", you're not just "trying to explain why would one focus on the subjective". You're telling me why I'm focusing on something that is subjective, and you're claiming that it's because I'm "looking for reasons and the easy target is the umpires or luck because neither can be explained." You also put words into my mouth. I never said it was "a chief reason things haven't gone well this year".

I'm telling you what I've seen, and you're telling me that I think that because I can't objectively look at the Braves and see the real reasons they're not succeeding. In reality, I never claimed that the issue with the umpires had a whole lot to do with the way we're playing. I just know what I've seen by watching every game. It's frustrating, and just like it's ok for some of you to talk about how *****ty the Braves are and how *****ty it is to be a Braves fan in a game thread because you're frustrated, I'm aloud to vent about my concerns with the umpires. You didn't have to feel so compelled to combat my opinion. You like to come on here and point out my tendencies, like my reluctance to criticize Bobby, as if they're reasons that my opinions are warped, because I don't view the team objectively. You accuse me of reaching for explanations rather than allowing myself to look at what's actually wrong with the team. What you have no tolerance for is when I do the same type of thing in return. If I talk about your tendency to discredit somebody's opinions because it's based on something subjective, and how in your mind that opinion has no chance at being accurate, then I'm supposedly out of line.

[BraveFan]

The love affair over Jeter and his so called greatness is attached to his playoff success and the same goes with Rivera and my point was that nine seasons have gone by without a title for them. I'm tired of hearing about Jeter b/c he is not even a top 10 SS currently in the MLB. The rings with the Yanks are what puts him into the Hall not any of his regular season numbers. Jeter would be the fifth best SS in the NL East.

Calling a guy with 215 career HRs the best player of his generation is ludacris. I'd put Andruw's career over Jeter, I know they don't play the same position but I will take the better power hitter over a pure blooper hitter an Jeter has always been an overrated defender.

[argentina brave]

Derek Jeter: Career OPS-.844 OPS+ 120 , doubles per season avg 34, hr's per season average 17, batting average career-.315 total fielding rubs above average career -105.6 ,RISP career OPS .839





Barry Larkin OPS-.815 OPS+ 116, doubles per season avg 33, HR per season avg 15, career batt. avg-.295 , total fielding runs above average career +28.1 , RISP career OPS .836

I think that Jeter compares well with Larkin. I am not of the opinion that larkin is a HOF player .

If you look at the two Jeter has the edge in avg and a small lead in OPS. they are virtual ties everywhere else except for defense where Larkin is significantly better even taking into account that he played for cruddier teams and was old in his latter years of his career ( that Jeter is now entering). I think Larkin was the more valuable player of the two!

Jeter is a good player, a solid player, but he is a vastly overrated player due to the fact that he happened to play some of his career for very good teams who won. If he gets the credit for them winning the 4 titles, where is all the blame for not winning for over 10 years with the highest payroll in the game?

you make solid points, all backed up by statistical data, while you do kind of glaze over the fact that jeter's lifetime BA is 20 pts. higher (very significant) i mean, jeter is as much in the conversation with boggs and gwynn, than larkin. jeter's OBP is actually higher than gwynn's...i will agree that he's somewhere in the middle of larkin and gwynn in hitting, but other intangibles make him a better ballplayer than gwynn.

i realize that others in his era have more power, higher average, better defensive range, but i think he's all-around the best baseball player.

i'm okay with the fact that my view isn't widely held or a slam-dunk, saturated with stats.

[argentina brave]

The love affair over Jeter and his so called greatness is attached to his playoff success and the same goes with Rivera and my point was that nine seasons have gone by without a title for them. I'm tired of hearing about Jeter b/c he is not even a top 10 SS currently in the MLB. The rings with the Yanks are what puts him into the Hall not any of his regular season numbers. Jeter would be the fifth best SS in the NL East.

is it the chicken or the egg?

you glaze over the 4 world championships like they are nothing. it is why they're all playing (presumably, besides the copious amounts of mullah and chicks).

what about smoltz? we can't have it both ways....

[BraveFan]

is it the chicken or the egg?

you glaze over the 4 world championships like they are nothing. it is why they're all playing (presumably, besides the copious amounts of mullah and chicks).

what about smoltz? we can't have it both ways....

I'm not saying there nothing, he just hasn't been that good for a while and people need to act like the Yanks aren't defending Champs b/c they aren't.

[bravos4evr]

you make solid points, all backed up by statistical data, while you do kind of glaze over the fact that jeter's lifetime BA is 20 pts. higher (very significant) i mean, jeter is as much in the conversation with boggs and gwynn, than larkin. jeter's OBP is actually higher than gwynn's...i will agree that he's somewhere in the middle of larkin and gwynn in hitting, but other intangibles make him a better ballplayer than gwynn.

i realize that others in his era have more power, higher average, better defensive range, but i think he's all-around the best baseball player.

i'm okay with the fact that my view isn't widely held or a slam-dunk, saturated with stats.

Hmmm, but when you figure in his below average defense he prolly isn't a top 5 shortstop of his era. Jeter is a 2 tool player iMO. He can hit for average and he hits reasonably enough for power out of the SS position. But the rest of his stats are not that great. In reality his power stats are about in the top five shortstops of his era... Rollins, Larkin and a few more had superior numbers there.

Mariano Rivera IS an elite player, 2nd all time in saves I think. He has the regular season and post season stats to back up whatever attributes get thrown his way. Overhyped? Maybe, but ESPn does that to the big market players. He actually lives up to the hype however. Jeter is an above average player transformed into a HOF'er by hype and location. If he gets in and Larkin doesn't......... well, it will show what a sham the whole mess is!.

You cannot use the success of a team in a team sport as a foundation for stating the greatness of an individual. It just doesn't work, Kurt Rambis won like 4 or 5 championships too!!! He is a HOF player?

[bravos4evr]

is it the chicken or the egg?

you glaze over the 4 world championships like they are nothing. it is why they're all playing (presumably, besides the copious amounts of mullah and chicks).

what about smoltz? we can't have it both ways....

Smoltz gets in because of his regular season stats and his saves and his postseason stats. If Smoltz had 120-95 career record with no saves but happend to have 30 playoff wins, he doesn't get in!

Jeter's career playoff batting avg .309, postseason OPS. 839. In other words ,he just keeps playing the same as his career regular season numbers!!! There is no clutch here to speak of. In fact his World Series numbers are lower!!!! batting avg. 302 OPS .809!!!!

Chipper Jones- career OPS .954, OPS+ 145 ( higher than I thought it would be! wow). avg 2b-36, HR-32, batting avg.310, runs above average saved -19.1 . Chipper is about the same fielder, yet better in everything else than Jeter. I'm not gonna hold it against Chipper that the Braves only won 1 title!

[argentina brave]

you glaze over the fact that jeter very likely will end up with @3500 career hits and a .315ish lifetime batting average.

that is first ballot material.

[Dreamscape]

Pitchers did quite well last offseason, ask Burnett, CC, or Lowe. A lot of position players and relievers would disagree but I felt starting pitchers did quite well. I agree that 2 months isn't enough time but that doesn't mean a team won't risk it. It doesn't mean Hudson won't risk it either. Smoltz getting the Yankees offer and Braves contract is still fresh in my mind and I wouldn't be surprised to see that kind of interest in him after the same kind of season again with Hudson.

I just don't see that happening and I have a few reasons. Number one, $12 million isn't chump change, especially in an unstable economic climate. Number two, Hudson seems like a prideful man who would like to live up to his contract. And third, if Hudson's ultimate target is the big Burnett/CC/Lowe-like payday, it would be a good calculated risk to stay where you're comfortable, pitch in a pitcher's park for a year, and then hit free agency two years removed from Tommy John and with a full season under your belt.

I just don't see Hudson pitching anywhere else next year unless he doesn't return in August.

[Lauren T.]

Can we please get rid of this fatass already?
Send him to my house!

Jeff Bennett and Chip Caray better hope I never see either of them in public.
Chip's a jerk. I've not met Bennett, but from all reports I've heard, you forget how much he sucks the minute you meet him, because he's such a nice guy.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I think Bennett did a fine job. He saved us two runs there. I was expecting a grand slam.
:D

Why in the world does Acosta never pitch?
Because Bobby skipped class the day they taught "Bullpen Management" in managerial school.

Sprint to 1b, o'flaherty!!!
That was a very basic play that should have been made.

Godspeed Infante. Godspeed.
I seem to recall getting some flack last year for loving Infante. I'm glad the rest of you are starting to see his value to the team!

umm, jeter's the best position player of our generation in my ever so humble opinion. ...

The best position player of yer generation? hmmm, better than Pujols? Better than Chipper? better than about 50 other guys?
I'd say he's slightly below Pooholes on skill-level par (assuming their ages were the same) and on a higher pedestal than Chipper, only because of his leadership skills and championship rings. Really, winning World Series is what it's about for these guys.

Calling a guy with 215 career HRs the best player of his generation is ludacris.

http://www.michigandaily.com/files/leg/3f8f78d59d7ec-54-1.jpg

you glaze over the fact that jeter very likely will end up with @3500 career hits and a .315ish lifetime batting average.

that is first ballot material.
And let's be honest -- people don't forget what kind of man a player is, what his values are. Barry Bonds, anyone?

... Number two, Hudson seems like a prideful man who would like to live up to his contract. ...

I just don't see Hudson pitching anywhere else next year unless he doesn't return in August.
I'll ask him in a couple of weeks. ;) I'm volunteering for a dinner the Hudson Family Foundation is putting on during the second week of July.

[IkeWagner]

A few comments:

I don't think that was a bad call by the umpires at all on the Cano play. Does anyone actually see where that line is drawn? Taking a direct path to the base will have you tettering that thing at best, but more likely slightly in fair territory. That little runner's path should be right to the bag, not to the right of it.

And WTF is McCann doing swinging at that 2-0 pitch up at this eyes after Chipper walked to lead off the 8th? I was so pissed when he did that. We needed baserunners there, and that ogre couldn't throw strikes. He should have been selective enough to have easily taken that one. If he had taken it the count would have gone to 3-0, he probably walks, and we would really have had something cooking. A really idiotic move by four eyes there.

[bravos4evr]

you glaze over the fact that jeter very likely will end up with @3500 career hits and a .315ish lifetime batting average.

that is first ballot material.

Jeter will be 35 tomorrow and has 2619 hits, i find it a bit presumptive to assume he will get 3500!!!! In fact I think it is highly unlikely that he gets 3500, 3000 yes ( and I'm not a believer that milestone numbers should be automatic entry into the hOF).

I still think he's hghly overrated, overpaid and not even a top 20 player of his era!

[bravos4evr]

A few comments:

I don't think that was a bad call by the umpires at all on the Cano play. Does anyone actually see where that line is drawn? Taking a direct path to the base will have you tettering that thing at best, but more likely slightly in fair territory. That little runner's path should be right to the bag, not to the right of it.

And WTF is McCann doing swinging at that 2-0 pitch up at this eyes after Chipper walked to lead off the 8th? I was so pissed when he did that. We needed baserunners there, and that ogre couldn't throw strikes. He should have been selective enough to have easily taken that one. If he had taken it the count would have gone to 3-0, he probably walks, and we would really have had something cooking. A really idiotic move by four eyes there.

Number one, the rule is what it is Ike. Just cuz you disagree with the location of the line doesn't mean the umps didn't blow that call( which they did).
Number 2, McCann and Chipper both prolly feel that they are the only offensive forces on the team that can be depended on, I
m amazed stuff like that doesn't happen more often. Quit picking on one of the two players on this team who actually are contributing!!!!

[argentina brave]

Jeter will be 35 tomorrow and has 2619 hits, i find it a bit presumptive to assume he will get 3500!!!! In fact I think it is highly unlikely that he gets 3500, 3000 yes ( and I'm not a believer that milestone numbers should be automatic entry into the hOF).

I still think he's hghly overrated, overpaid and not even a top 20 player of his era!

you could be right about the 3500 hits...those are my #'s and i realize its speculation (like the andruw projections that people made when he has around 29 yrs. old and had all those HRs)

i easily see him being a molitor type player for the yanks, playing into his 40s. there has been talk of him moving to the outfield, which would definitely prolong his career. if he continues to get 175 hits/season until he is, say 40, he'll be at 3494. his last 5 yrs., he's hit (188,202,214,206,179).

just sayin'

[bravos4evr]

I don't know if he can still contribute at that high of a level for that long. Most position players can't. If they make him a DH they will be making a huge mistake with his lack of power.... I hate the Yankees so I hope they do!!!!

I see him getting at most 3200 hits. In the age of roids and offense, I bet the park adjusted numbers on that equal like getting 2800 hits in another era. If that's all he has, I don't think he's a HOF player.

[argentina brave]

I don't know if he can still contribute at that high of a level for that long. Most position players can't. If they make him a DH they will be making a huge mistake with his lack of power.... I hate the Yankees so I hope they do!!!!

I see him getting at most 3200 hits. In the age of roids and offense, I bet the park adjusted numbers on that equal like getting 2800 hits in another era. If that's all he has, I don't think he's a HOF player.

i get it, you don't like jeter....i respect that. but to say he's not a HOF with a .315 average, all those hits, etc... who does get in from this generation?!

anyway, we just don't agree...moving on....

[CanadaBravesFan]

I hate Jeter and think he is over-rated. However, he will get 3500 hits and was a part of those WS teams. He deserves to be in. Add to that the new home stadium, his #'s will probably see a spike this and the next few years in comparison to the last 5. He is a HOF, just not one of the greatest players to ever live (Top 25-50) that some Yankee fans and media type belive that he is. He is just a great player (and an arrogant Pri@k).

[Hobbes]

I hate Jeter and think he is over-rated. However, he will get 3500 hits and was a part of those WS teams. He deserves to be in. Add to that the new home stadium, his #'s will probably see a spike this and the next few years in comparison to the last 5. He is a HOF, just not one of the greatest players to ever live (Top 25-50) that some Yankee fans and media type belive that he is. He is just a great player (and an arrogant Pri@k).
I agree with all of this. Just because I don't like him and think he is vastly overrated doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve to get into the HOF.

[wordslayer©]

He's only overrated because he plays in new york, and they treat him like a greek god.

Definitely a hall of famer. No way he gets 3,500 hits. I loved Barry Larken and I think he is a good comparison to Larken, except that I think Larken was a better player.

Honestly, I don't know how you can't like him. He says all the right things, courts the media, and knows how to play an audience.

Personally, I don't like him, but there isn't much from the north east that I do like.

[bravos4evr]

The world series wins mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!! Like I said in the NBA there are players who have more championships and probably contributed more to them than Jeter did to his and they aren't going in the HOF!!!!!.

It ain't golf or tennis. You can be terrible and win rings and wonderful and never win one in a team sport. If , by no fault of your own, you never have good pitching, yet you don't leave due to loyalty to the city! Or you just get unlucky a couple of times!

Jeter, will get in the HOf with his 3000 hits, but .315 isn't enough IMO there are guys ahead of him who aren't in the HOF ( I just had the list up and closed it, my bad).
Plus his defense is bad. Not just mediocre, bad!!!!!

Oh and to list him as better than Chipper is retarded! Oh and to say he's even in the same breath is Pujols is absolutely ludicrous!!!!

[IkeWagner]

Number one, the rule is what it is Ike. Just cuz you disagree with the location of the line doesn't mean the umps didn't blow that call( which they did).

As in any other aspect of life, when rules don't make much sense, those calling the shots who are reasonable tend to not follow them strictly. Nothing wrong with that.


Number 2, McCann and Chipper both prolly feel that they are the only offensive forces on the team that can be depended on, I
m amazed stuff like that doesn't happen more often. Quit picking on one of the two players on this team who actually are contributing!!!!

Yes, BMac has been great for the team - but it was still a very poor decision worthy of some criticism.

[argentina brave]

The world series wins mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!! Like I said in the NBA there are players who have more championships and probably contributed more to them than Jeter did to his and they aren't going in the HOF!!!!!.

It ain't golf or tennis. You can be terrible and win rings and wonderful and never win one in a team sport. If , by no fault of your own, you never have good pitching, yet you don't leave due to loyalty to the city! Or you just get unlucky a couple of times!

Jeter, will get in the HOf with his 3000 hits, but .315 isn't enough IMO there are guys ahead of him who aren't in the HOF ( I just had the list up and closed it, my bad).
Plus his defense is bad. Not just mediocre, bad!!!!!

Oh and to list him as better than Chipper is retarded! Oh and to say he's even in the same breath is Pujols is absolutely ludicrous!!!!

.315 isn't enough to be in the HOF?! that, my friend, is retarded.

...and the whole thing about world series wins meaning nothing runs counter to the whole point of playing the game. (besides the $$ and chicks)

[KB 34]

Who are people going to vote for instead of Chipper? I can't think of a lot of names that get in over Chipper among active peers, at least in my book.

[bravos4evr]

.315 isn't enough to be in the HOF?! that, my friend, is retarded.

...and the whole thing about world series wins meaning nothing runs counter to the whole point of playing the game. (besides the $$ and chicks)

batting average is a useless stat.


His OPS is above average for SS's but not amazing. I think the HOF should be for the elite players , not just the very good.

There are 8 players with higher batting average than Jeter who aren't in the HOF.

Jeter is the product of NYC hype. Winning World seires as an individual player is worthless. Did he pitch every game? Did he drive in and score every run? Did he play every position? NO HE DIDNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a team sport, played with an entire team of people. I guess Mickey Mantle would've sucked if the Yankess had won no world series eh?

[argentina brave]

batting average is a useless stat.


His OPS is above average for SS's but not amazing. I think the HOF should be for the elite players , not just the very good.

There are 8 players with higher batting average than Jeter who aren't in the HOF.

Jeter is the product of NYC hype. Winning World seires as an individual player is worthless. Did he pitch every game? Did he drive in and score every run? Did he play every position? NO HE DIDNT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a team sport, played with an entire team of people. I guess Mickey Mantle would've sucked if the Yankess had won no world series eh?

a. mickey mantle was a hall of famer, no matter where he'd played.
b. batting average does matter. is it the 'end all-be all', no. but, it does matter....a good bit, actually.
c. how long did the guys with higher batting avgs. play, and when? 1878? names, please...
d. so, you think OPS should be the measuring stick for HOF? interesting....

your jeter hatin' is understandable, yet irrational. if i were pitching, and it was the bottom of the ninth with men on base, i'd certainly rather face a-roid than jeter. he's simply a better, smarter ballplayer.

[Andy G.]

Batting average is not a useless stat for evaluating a players talent at the end of his career. If you want to know what kind of hitting ability he had, you look at his average just like every other stat. Patience is only part of the equation to get on base, btw. You have to get hits to have a high OBP. A .315 career batting average is very impressive, and far from a useless stat.

[wordslayer©]

Jeter should have 3,000 hits.

I hate the guy, but you gotta give him the credit he is due. I think there are only 3 other shortstops who have 3,000 hits and they, of course, are in the hall of fame, and one of those is that god awful overrated Cal Ripken Jr.

Hmmm....okay, Ripken isn't that bad, but I still don't like him. Jeter probably isn't as valuable as Yount, and I don't think he is as good as Larkin.

I'd sure take Jeter over Ozzie Smith, and Smith is there.

Jeter will probably go into the hall as being the worst defensive shortstop there.